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New ETC-FAQ (including new Dark Elves) 
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Malekith's Best Friend

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Hi all!

I just noticed that the new ETC-FAQ is released, and can be found here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/11F6qQpGqsDjizrWCps3EJemQPfZGkzgaUU6RkMI1hDQ/pub

This is the first widespread FAQ that I've seen that covers the new Dark Elves.

To save you the click, this is what is said about Dark Elves:

Code:
Q: What kind of ward saves can be used against Arnzipal's Black Horror? Can you use Regeneration?
A: You can use only generic, all purpose ward saves and Magic Resistance. Cloak of Twilight works. The spell doesn’t cause wounds so Banner of the World Dragon and other Ward Saves against wounds caused by magic and similar do not work. No Regeneration.

Q: Does Strength of Khaine allow rerolling wounds not caused by close combat attacks?
A: No.

Q: Can Cauldron of Blood or Bloodwrack Shrine join Skirmishers or units with mismatching bases, like cavalry?
A: No. Also, the unit joined needs to be at least 60mm wide to be legal.

Q: Does Bloodwrack Shrine really affect the leadership of specific models?
A: No. It affects units within range.

Q: Do the Reign of Chaos result Dark Prince Thirsts! and Slaanesh Forsaken ignore the ward save of Doomfire Warlocks?
A: Yes.


I was hoping for an errata for the CoB leadership (only unit in game that has zero?), some ruling on the Tomb of Furion spell selection process, and I also hoped for a clarifications on Strength of Khaine and wounds caused by Chariots or other mounts (the whole Chariot technically has the rule). Still, this is a very good start and I think it removes the biggest issue which is reroll to-wound for shooting/magic.

Also, the following is said about Vampire Counts:

Code:
Q: Can an engaged Terrorgheist use Death Shriek against units it is not fighting? What protections work against Shrieks and Howls?
A: Yes. Note that Banshee may not us her Howl in this way. When Howls and Shrieks are used against units not in base contact with the model making the attack, they’re ranged and shooting attacks, meaning Stormbanner and Pha’s Protection work against them. When used against btb units, they’re still shooting attacks, but no longer ranged attacks.


Since they get defined as Shooting, the cloak works against Banshees and Terrorgheists as well.


Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:14 pm
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Dragon Lord
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Their first answer is partially incorrect as botwd still works against black horror.
All ward saves (no exceptions) are worded to work against wounds so by that definition no ward save would work against instant kills, but then instant kill specify that ward saves still work.

There is nothing preventing the cob or the shrine from joining cavalry or skirmishers.
The depth of the model is even correct not to mess up cavalry of 3+ ranks deep

Reign of chaos roll is not made by a model with mark of slaanesh or a demon of slaanesh so there's no reason that warlocks would not get their ward save.

Shrine specifically affects models.

Clearly ETC faq team has issues with elementary reading (they also like changing official rules to their liking)

Murderous prowess on chariots requires no clarification, it never affects mounts. You don't use MP on cold ones any more than you would on a chariot.

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Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:12 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend

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I know that some people do not care much about anything ETC, but I actually find most of them correct.

The BoWD ruling is consistent with other effects that removes a model from the game, including Cascade, Purple Sun, and Dwellers. Can you think of a similar effect that is different?

The CoB and Shrine align well with the depth of cavalry, but not the widht. If you have three ranks of cav + CoB/Shrine, the last rank would have a different width than the first two which is not allowed. An incompatible width forces the CoB/Shrine to be placed beside the unit, but it is not allowed to go there due to own placement rules. If a legal placement cannot be found, it is not allowed to join. Also note that this is not an "AB trumphs BRB" situation, as the rules are not mutually exclusive. They are both conditions that need to be fulfilled for a legal placement, and this cannot be done in the case of cavalry (unless the unit contains only a single line of at most three cavalry models, which is a bit of a corner case).

The change in the Shrine aura is a change, I agree, but it makes it consistent with similar effects from similar units (like Hurricanum, War Altar, Luminarc, Cauldron, Bastilodon, Frost Phoenix)

I don't really understand your last argument about murderous prowess. From your earlier arguments it seems that you encourage more RAW definitions, but not in the last case? By pure RAW, the entire Chariot has the MP rule (but only parts of it gets to use the effect). By RAW, the CoB does not change the MP rule, but grants reroll to-wound unconditionally to any model with the MP rule (NOT only the parts benefitting from the effect). I do not expect it to work this way, but there is clearly room for a clarification.


Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:49 pm
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Cascade, purple sun and dwellers specifically allow no saves of any kind. Black horror specifically allows a single ward save. ETC ruling arbitrarily takes away some random forms of ward save.

Shrine in an incompatible unit counts as no models, so you still have to be 5 wide to claim rank bonus, put 7 models in the third rank before you start 4th. It's very simple and if someone is bothered by a 10mm gap in the middle of the back rank they need to take a step back and rethink why they're playing the game (some people's movement trays are wider than 10mm)

Being consistent doesn't make a ruling correct, should they disallow shrines joining units because its consisrent with other chariots?

By RAW cob would give rerolls to impact hits wounds, yes. But without cob, impact hits get no rerolls at all.
It's one thing I believe the intent was rather clear but if my opponent argues otherwise there is no basis not to allow rerolls to wohnd on impact hits within 6" of the cauldron.

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8th Edition army book W/D/L:
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Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:58 pm
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I think we can all agree that Black Horror needs an official FAQ in regards to BotWD.

Remember that these are just ETC restrictions, so it's not like any of them bear any additional weight outside the ETC, or a tournament that uses that rules set.


Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:40 pm
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No, it actually doesn't. BotWD gives ward save against magic, Black Horror is magic that allows ward saves.

When you get down to "but it doesn't cause wounds" then I will make Executioners insanely overpowered because regular ward saves by the BRB definition also work only against wounds caused, and Killing Blows don't cause wounds.

I do remember that and I'm glad that the tournaments in my area don't use arbitrary restrictions that weaken some armies and boost other armies, often in totally unnecessary ways, creating a loop of restrictions because removing a weapon, makes another weapon stronger, so you have to remove that weapon too... and everybody ends up fighting with sticks.

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7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
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Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
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Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:25 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
Clearly ETC faq team has issues with elementary reading (they also like changing official rules to their liking)



+1 to everything Dalamar has said.

About the Cauldron/Shrine in a cavalry unit, some people argue that it can't happen because the regular rules for mismatched bases say that the odd model has to go on the side of the unit, and the Cauldron/Shrine ruies say that they have to go in the middle. I simply see this as a case of the specific rule being an exception to the general rule. The case for a Cauldron not being able to join skirmishers is even weaker. I'm not even sure how they try to justify that.

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Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:51 pm
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Mounted characters can't join skirmishers ;)
But shrine is not a character and cob after hag is dead isn't a character either anymore.

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7th edition army book:
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Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:42 am
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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Forgot about that rule.

As long as the Hag is alive, I think it is a mounted character (chariot is a type of mount). But if the Hag is dead, that's not an issue. And there is no character on a Shrine.

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Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:32 am
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correct

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Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Sat Dec 21, 2013 6:05 am
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Yet more reasons to never use ETC, a system that does not play warhammer and has made its own flawed system.

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Sat Dec 21, 2013 6:55 am
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Quote:
Forgot about that rule.

As long as the Hag is alive, I think it is a mounted character (chariot is a type of mount). But if the Hag is dead, that's not an issue. And there is no character on a Shrine.


Does the CoB lose the ability to join units as if it were a character when the DH dies? Wouldnt Will of the Gods still allow it to join units as if it were a character? --I dont mean to play devil's advocate but just wanted a clarification. :)

Thanks!

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Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:13 pm
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CoB has its own rule (will of the gods) that lets it join units regardless of the status of the death hag.

I tried to read through the ETC FAQ but had to stop at chapter 2 since there was a blatant rule change or misinterpretation in almost every other point.

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8th Edition army book W/D/L:
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Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:39 am
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I know a lot of people say "It's ETC so who cares outside of ETC?" except that ETC is still one of the leading set of tournament rule sets in the world, especially in Europe, and therefore FAQs put out by them regarding rules discrepancies bear weight even in non ETC tournaments. If nothing else you tournament organizers have some supporting evidence when putting forth their own FAQs regarding their own tournaments to help clarify the chaotic mess that is sometimes the game of Warhammer. Therefore, I believe it is an important point of discussion.

Personally, I believe the part about the Cauldron is going to be seen more and more in tournament FAQs. Around here, when I tell people I play Dark Elves, almost always the first question out of their mouths is about the cauldron and how do I personally play it, and if I play a shooting army with it.

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Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:22 pm
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True, quite a bit of the ETC answers can be used as reference by rhe TOs on how not to make a ruling since they plainly say the opposite of what the rulebook does.

It may be the hit in europe (which it's not as swedish comp works pretty strong) but I'm yet to see an etc comp tournament in the north east US.

Not to mention using a Team comp in a singles competition is plain wrong.

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7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:26 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
Not to mention using a Team comp in a singles competition is plain wrong.


This really is the crux of my "no-comp" stance in regards to ETC right there. You're taking a single tourney rules pack and then trying to apply it to a format that is not intended. It doesn't help that I'm not a fan of the restrictions they place either (call me biased if you will) but it makes no sense to me and just further exacerbates the comp/no comp debate.


Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:50 am
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I think many can agree ETC is a silly ruleset that forces certain strategies. But there is also a problem using no comp whatsoever. Example: 2400 straightup WoC vs 2400 straightup WE or maybe beastmen. Can we agree there is a quite high amount of imbalance between the WoC "new" book and the WE age old book? A WE warrior costs 12 points and dont have ASF nor any "prowess", and no armor either... Just a bow. This is why WE gets 10% extra points to play with but these 10% doesnt give VP (or effectively their army cost reduced by 10% but due to odd numbers and stuff). It offers certain balances, while it kills others. Overall, I like the ETC ruleset, but it makes certain lists a lot less viable than need be. I'm definitely going to try and argue the case of swedish comp for the next tourneys, but I think ETC kind of has a grasp around many players here. And alot of them play the races that ETC favours. And they play to win :P

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Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:46 pm
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First of alll you can't really compare books from different editions. They were written with different rulesets in mind.

Second of all, beastmen (and tomb kings) are considered to be the worst "recent" books but tomb kings are considered competitive if you include named characters (which you should, they are part of the rules and don't require opponent's permission since 7th ed). The same might apply to beastmen but I guess nobody bothered to check.

Third of all, I pity the woc player against a good wood elf player. Even worse if they don't have slaanesh DP. Their entire tactic will revolve around "can I kill them faster with my magic than that elf with 6 no save shots per turn can kill my overpriced cavalry, or that other elf's million arrows can kill my unarmored monsters."

Fourth of all, there you go. ETC favors certain races more than others ajd thus not solving any problems, just shifting them around and in my (conspiracy theory) opinion, they just shift the advantage to the armies that people writing the comp pack play.

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7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:56 pm
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ETC rules forces different approaches than the standard usage of powerbuilds.

That's the very reason I find ETC tournaments to be a nice change of pace and means you have to take a different approach to achieve your victories. This doesn't mean that there won't be powerbuilds, it just means you get different builds...

As for the ETC FAQ, it's better than the GW FAQ imo. and also seems to be much more logical. I also hated the ETC rules in the start, but now I find the changes to be a relief and just make the different tournaments (with a few different rules) more exciting.

I still think it's stupid they've nerfed the use of Mindrazor though... it's a great spell to deal with deathstars, and as it's more or less gone from the ETC setting, there's lots of deathstars around (and deathstars are the most boring thing in Warhammer fantasy imo.)

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Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:08 am
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But have you looked at etc lists from last year omnichron? I only really looked at dark elves but there were essentially two builds. Either double level 4 with infantry bunkers or a dragonlord. You could eessentially guess your opponent's list if you knew the army. That's hardly different builds. ETC funnels lists down to a handful competitive builds because it's easier to predict that way.

As for their FAQ, if I failed to go through the 2.x points because nearly every other point was blatantly opposite to what rulebok says (not even ambiguous rules, just straigth up rules changes to make them fit the ETC "vision") then it's hardly a good FAQ

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7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:47 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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Omnichron wrote:
I still think it's stupid they've nerfed the use of Mindrazor though... it's a great spell to deal with deathstars, and as it's more or less gone from the ETC setting, there's lots of deathstars around (and deathstars are the most boring thing in Warhammer fantasy imo.)


This is my biggest beef with the ETC approach. It's not just about Mindrazor--the ETC ruleset is generally anti-magic. Magic is an integral part of the game, and when you nerf magic you substantially tip the scales in favor of combat-oriented armies that don't need magic to win.

Yes, it sucks to have your expensive Daemon Prince obliterated by a unit of Mindrazored Corsairs, but I have no sympathy. It also sucks to have your entire army chewed up by said Daemon Prince because your best option for dealing with him (magic) has been taken away.

Magic is part of the game. Deal with it.

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Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:20 pm
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Right... death magic on max 4 dice because purple sun destroys ogre gutstars.

Ok... and without purple sun gutstars destroy most armies.

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:55 pm
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