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Corsair
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Hey? Underway showed up!
That's an achievement from AoS! :D

-=-=-

OK, AoS seems to have been designed with the newbee in mind, not the experienced tourney player.
Well, all tournament players have once been a newbee. If rookies are not coming in sufficient numbers, the game is doomed in the long rune.
I hope that GW's bold change will attract new players more that it will turn off old players.

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Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:00 am
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Executioner

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Underway wrote:
Back when 3rd edition came out they did a similar thing with the armies. Cobbled together rules so your current crop of miniatures could work. In those ancient days dark elves had heavy cavalry and cold ones. No corsairs, black guard or executioners. Essentially our army was crossbows, witch elves, heavy can and cold ones.

Also remember that the lord of the rings game evolved from a skirmish to a battle game over time. I expect rules to come out to expand upon this game somewhat. For now I'm just glad my tomb kings are pretty cool, and fascinated that lizard are considered
daemons.

I don't expect this game to be popular with the competitive crowd that normally works the forums. We'll see over time but this went int the exact opposite way that those guys wanted, and drove down to the beer and basement crowd. Minis are still spectacular though....


If I remember rightly and forgive me if I'm wrong as it was 25+ years ago and even the I was only 11 but the transition from 3rd ed warhammer to 4th ed (and the difference between them was also significant) included the release of heroquest and advanced heroquest around the same time. AoS feels very similar to me in so much as the warscrolls (and it says it on them) are here to allow us to use any current unit within the new rule set for past present and future games in any setting.

but the "new style" models will be the ones that are optimised. By new style I mean Putrid blight kings, morghasts, storm cast externals etc.... If you look at how those units card are they will work well in AoS high wounds per model high attacks per model good bravery and finally nice special rules.

Conversely though some other scrolls have been designed to work well and this is where we can excel across the armies the old "core" units have all been buffed but also balanced pretty well against each in relative terms but our spears/shards/swords are now an attractive unit and ones that if played well should be able to compete think 30 swords hitting on 3s with extra attack for every 6 rolled or 30 spears holding a position hitting the enemy on 2s

Units have change role for example Dark riders have received a massive buff but now will operate better in large units as they are not Chaff anymore it they increase the effects of your opponents battleshock test and they are still as fast as a flying dragon!

For me I see the druchii as strong as ever just need to use your units in tandem to win.....

Hang on that's what we have always done!


Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:27 am
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Corsair
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Jvh792 wrote:
I have been avoiding the panic bus as long as humanly possible. Anyone who thinks this game is still strategic and compelling hasn't played yet, or is in severe denial. But I'm all on the panic bus.


I've played it, today, and I don't think I'm in denial. You may safely get off the panic bus - mind the gap :)


Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:54 am
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Wait, considering that this is set after the end times, has anyone noticed it's a bit strange that our special characters seem to have miraculously returned to life? (Or the fact that our entire race isn't dead really)

Also, how are people planning on working around the whole lack of a points limit? To me that seems to be the most glaringly obvious problem with this whole thing... (apart from the magic phase, the space marine empire, and the seemingly utterly worthless army books I now own...)

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Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:10 am
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Shade

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I honestly think that this is very much what it was rumoured to be; a Ravening Hordes style update and I think it has that same level of detail and seriousness.

I don't see GW not releasing rules for the factions of Age of Sigmar moving forward and I think that is when we're going to get the cull to models and characters. You'll still be able to play Warhammer: Age of Sigmar with them, but maybe not Warhammer: XXYY or Age of Sigmar: XXYY. My feel on it is that's how they'll move things forward. The wording might get changed around on the product (ie: this isn't a rulebook, it's a campaign supplement just like the End Times) but I don't see in all seriousness GW breaking away from it's standard operating procedure in having some version of rules and army books. I really think if people just chill for a month or two, we'll have much more in terms of answers and army composition.

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Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:28 am
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Right now I'm looking at the rule sets that have been released for the old factions and I get a single strong impression; All will be phased out.

Once the new range has been released (unified Aelf, Duardin, Seraphon), they'll stop publicising these rules and the models will be discontinued. It seems inevitable to me.

Very sad times. Hoping I'll be proven wrong.

As for the here and now, wondering what to add to the Warhost.


Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:56 am
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Mahlek wrote:
Right now I'm looking at the rule sets that have been released for the old factions and I get a single strong impression; All will be phased out.

Once the new range has been released (unified Aelf, Duardin, Seraphon), they'll stop publicising these rules and the models will be discontinued. It seems inevitable to me.

Very sad times. Hoping I'll be proven wrong.


I've been thinking the same thing. Keep people interested until there is a genuine replacement they can latch on to.

It's a waiting game...

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Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:51 pm
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Mahlek wrote:
Right now I'm looking at the rule sets that have been released for the old factions and I get a single strong impression; All will be phased out.

Once the new range has been released (unified Aelf, Duardin, Seraphon), they'll stop publicising these rules and the models will be discontinued. It seems inevitable to me.

Very sad times. Hoping I'll be proven wrong.

As for the here and now, wondering what to add to the Warhost.


Not going to happen. Dark Aelf are exiles, wood Aelf are wanderers, high Aelf....I hate high elvs so don't care....lol. Their difference is already in the rule set. What might change is their look. Actually I'm pretty sure you can guarantee that will change. Influences from before but strongly different in the future.

Ravening hordes it is....

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Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:12 pm
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So I've had some time to digest the rules and think about what's missing from AoS compared to 8th.

What I see to be the most drastic difference is that they took out many of the mechanics in the game that simulate real battle on the tabletop. Ex: hell cannon doesn't drop a template anymore, it just does a number of hits to a unit (no scatter dice). The flame template doesn't seem to be around for breath weapons. No frenzy to simulate warriors being out of control and needing to charge into battle. No fleeing to represent leading the enemy into a trap behind the mountain pass. No winds of magic and miscast to simulate the difficulty of controlling magic energy.

It seems like mostly everything special a unit has is just named for the unit and then involves - rerolling 1s, to hit, or save rolls.

So my question is, what do people think we'll be getting in the future with these updates? Obviously games workshop has to make money, so they'll release new content. But will that be in the form of only new models with the war scrolls in the box? Or will there be rulebooks with extra things to add into the game like fleeing or templates or more magic spells?

What was the motivation on their part for making all of the rules free? They could have combined all the war scrolls into a hard cover book and sold it for $100 ($600 for collector's edition!). Now are we expecting free updates to rules online? Was the motivation just to get new people into the game? Just cobble together a rule system that will attract new people and then get paid when they need to buy a couple models from all different races they think look interesting?

Will we eventually be making races more unique? You can go through the druchii war scroll and we could be a band of outcast humans for all you can tell from the way we play.

What can I hope for in the future for AoS?

The one thing I have noticed that is good is that it will be easier to play new armies. No one wanted to play 1000 points of warhammer 8th edition. But you can put together those units and paint them well in 3 months and now you have probably a reasonable force in AoS.


Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:07 pm
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Coop wrote:
What was the motivation on their part for making all of the rules free? They could have combined all the war scrolls into a hard cover book and sold it for $100 ($600 for collector's edition!). Now are we expecting free updates to rules online? Was the motivation just to get new people into the game? Just cobble together a rule system that will attract new people and then get paid when they need to buy a couple models from all different races they think look interesting?


I think you just answered your own question here.

Coop wrote:
The one thing I have noticed that is good is that it will be easier to play new armies. No one wanted to play 1000 points of warhammer 8th edition. But you can put together those units and paint them well in 3 months and now you have probably a reasonable force in AoS.


I think GW has realized how much of a barrier there is to getting started in their games. As they've said, they want to be a miniatures company, not a rulebooks company. So by making the lists free and the starting point for battles low, they're trying to encourage people to get started. They're also trying to encourage veterans to get multiple armies.

2 months ago, if I as a Dark Elf player wanted to get into Empire, I'd first need to buy the $70 book, then several boxes of units, at hundreds more dollars, to at least get to 1500 points, to have any hope at all of getting a game. And even then, my army list options would be limited just to what I had bought.

Now, if I want to, I could buy an empire unit or two and play them with my existing army, because they're order "allies", crazy as that is. If I like them, I can expand until I have my own free standing force. I've bought no new books, just downloaded a free list of warscrolls, and the first mini I buy can be used immediately.

I'm not necessarily saying it will work, or that I like the strategy, but I do think I at least understand what they're trying to do. Will it work? Time will tell.

I personally think that there is more coming. Existing warscrolls will be adjusted and tweaked and improved upon. New ones will be made. That list at the end of the dark elf "book" telling you what to substitute for what? I think that will shrink until it goes away. I think there will likely be a magic "expansion", whether that's a book you have to buy, or cards like our battle magic cards in 8th, or what, I can't say.

Maybe there will be another expansion that goes into trying to make a balancing factor. A thought that a guy had on a battle report I just watched was by expanding on the "wounds" characteristic. Both sides start with the same number of "wounds" on the table, but maybe some models will say that their "wounds" cost 2 wounds each for the purposes of "cost" to field. I think we can all agree that a "wound" on a skavenslave is not equal to a "wound" on a chaos warrior.

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Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:36 pm
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Wrathbaby wrote:
Wait, considering that this is set after the end times, has anyone noticed it's a bit strange that our special characters seem to have miraculously returned to life? (Or the fact that our entire race isn't dead really)

Also, how are people planning on working around the whole lack of a points limit? To me that seems to be the most glaringly obvious problem with this whole thing... (apart from the magic phase, the space marine empire, and the seemingly utterly worthless army books I now own...)


Every edition makes the previous army book obsolete. I have 4 dark elf army books now, and the only thing that makes this time more annoying than the previous is that this last book was a LOT more expensive.

The fact that the replacement is free does help.

But remember this - NEVER forget this. That book is still on your shelf. It does still carry some value if you let it. If you and a friend want to play a game of 8th Ed Warhammer, those rules still exist and always will.

One of my friends and I played a game of 5th Ed warhammer about a year ago. It still worked and was still fun. He still had his Chaos Warrior army and that old book, and hadn't played since then. I still had my 5th ed Dark Elf book. We made it happen. I beat the snot out of him too :)

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Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:43 pm
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Wrathbaby wrote:
Also, how are people planning on working around the whole lack of a points limit? To me that seems to be the most glaringly obvious problem with this whole thing...


It turns out that it doesn't matter. Because melees aren't like they've always been in Warhamer, where you charge a regiment, kill a few of them, they run, you catch them and they're destroyed all in one turn, but long and drawn-out fights with losses on both sides lasting several turns, and twenty goblins can hold out against twenty chaos warriors - I'm not saying win, but hold out, which might be what wins you the game depending on how clever you play it. It also feels more 'realistic', less 'Charge! Pow! Your unit is gone!' if you see what I mean, and because the fight is longer and the dice go through fewer statistical hoops, there's more of a chance for lucky or unlucky dice rolls. Those twenty goblins *probably* won't win against twenty chaos warriors, but they *might*, or at least make them pay for it.

Also, the points cost system was largely meaningless and had been for decades. Once, long ago, it was actually based on something: one point of Strength worth so many points, one point of BS worth so many points, and so on. It didn't balance the game then anyway, because five Chaos Knights were not equivalent to 50 Empire soldiers, or 100, or 500. The way the rules worked, five Chaos Knights would destroy *any number* of Empire Soldiers, so what did it matter how many points they were worth? Since then, points costs mean even less, as they became based on nothing except what they were before. Every edition brought: 'Leave this unit as they are, but give them one more WS', 'Lower their points cost by one or two points, so that you can bring more of them', 'Give them one or two new special rules, leave the points cost as it is'. With all that tweaking and more-or-lessing and that-sounds-about-right-ing over decades, points costs were just an arbitrary limit that benefited some armies and hurt others, depending on how generous the rules writer was feeling that day.

Look at it as taking the training wheels off your bicycle. :)


Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:17 pm
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I don't play that much anymore anyways. I'm into DnD and Dropzone Commander these days. But I still love the models. If this leads to better access to models for me and cheaper models at all I'm in. I can still play 8th.

Someone will also take advantage of the gap in rules and make 9th edition fan rules or somesuch. There does seem to be a balance when looking at model number, and carefully figuring out how many of what types even without comp.

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Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:22 pm
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This comment isn't directed towards the posts about profit etc.. More to get people, positive and thinking about combos etc...

Still looks a tactical game to me just different, movement is still key because the person whose turn it is gets to pick the first unit that fights.......think about it you charge in then you get to chose to swing first.

Add this mechanic to say a blackguard unit who have double the weapon range of most units, so you charge you strike first (with double the models)

Let's say 18 blackguard (3x6) charge something on average they are going to put 8 wounds thru after armour saves on a unit that has a 4+ armour save and if you charged you get to do this before the enemy can do anything back unless the enemy has 2" weapons they will only get half as many models to fight back even if they are as good (3 to hit 3 to wound -1 rend) as BG they will kill half as many back.

Now here's where the rules stack if the enemy hasn't spotted your 360 move next turn that you are going for unit a (because yo set up so as to strike b) and therefore hasn't used his abilities to prevent a battleshock test things are looking bad for him right now whereas for you who knew where you were going to strike has buffed the BG so they don't roll.......

Wait all this from 4 pages of rules.... To me 360 move, battleshock, combat sequence, weapon range and unit buffs has produced a very nuanced game if played well. Sure you can take some weird armies and btw most competitive layers NEVER play whfb out of the box anyway so once the comp packs start circulating it will be BAU.

but seriously those guys that just pick stuff and push it forward without considering the whole package will be destroyed by the experienced generals that create synergy in their scrolls and placement and movement and tactics and that's exactly what we did in 8th.

Some of the changes are welcome too, warmachines and shooting in general has had its range reduced and magic has been altered but it's not necessarily bad though because the scroll has the spell, so you pick a unit that has the spell you want then get to try cast it every turn no more bad dice magic phases (if it's not stopped of course) but hang on you can't dispel unless you have a unit than can do so within 18inches....... Oh no I've left that unit too far away from my wizard......

again synergy tactics and movement, strategy.

In just 4 pages

Personally the more I read the scrolls across the armies and think of ways the druchii can fight them the more I am beginning to see a genius in this, everyone keeps going on about a skirmish game yet darkspears will be best taken in units of 30-40 ranked in as tight a formation together as possible..... Wait if I just has some square bases about the size of the model and a tray to put them on to make it easier to move I could have them tightly packed so if I don't move and get charged I hit on 2s wound on 4s with around 3 ranks......

Look across the armies and you will see e.g dwarf Xbows +1 to if 20 models in unit, stormvermin +1 to hit if they outnumber enemy and so on.


I'm trying to get your generals brains thinking and not your nostalgic brains worrying, this rules set has depth in synergy, and is tight and clear ( no more asf v asf & asl arguments), larger units will still be a thing as will gunlines and Magic heavy armies. We will also see monster mash armies and monstrous infantry/cav as well as a new class of army in between stormcast externals and putrid blight kings style heavy infantry.

When I first read the 4 pages I despaired but with the scrolls and the ideas of army construction I'm now enthusiastic, take your 10 bloodthirsters because a balanced army will win because the big gribblies get their combat effectiveness reduced as you take wounds off and 10 dark riders on average will take 5 wounds off a bloodthirster in shooting per turn.

Just a ramble but it's not all doom and gloom :-)


Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:55 pm
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Moderator's edit.
I had to split a few posts away from the present thread.
You can find these in Un-Welcome to the Age of Sigmar
Please keep the present thread for those who are willing to give AoS a honest (or desperate) try.
Thank you.
Calisson

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Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:47 am
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Hi, all.

I haven't been on this site in like 10 years or so, having given up on WHFB (and GW in general, aside from WotR) long ago. However, this new Age of Sigmar thing got me curious a few weeks ago. And now that it's out, I've looked over the rules, read up a few battle reports, and have decided that I'm excited about what I see and am looking at a return of my old dark elves to the fight.

Sure, I still have problems...like random charge distances, measuring from the model and not the base, and non-unique unique units, but none of these things are deal breakers and can easily be attended to with some minor house ruling.

But, anyway, I do like what I see, and it gives me a reason to pull out my bitz box and try to throw together/repair some of my dark aelfs with a repaint as well. Looking forward to AoS.

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Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:52 am
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What quantifies as "an honest or desperate try"? I've played several games and watched every battle report that's on youtube. I will also be playing more games in a search wring out every ounce of strategy that's in this game. But please let me know when my comments are welcome on this thread XD

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Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:22 am
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Sangfroid wrote:
This comment isn't directed towards the posts about profit etc.. More to get people, positive and thinking about combos etc...

Still looks a tactical game to me just different, movement is still key because the person whose turn it is gets to pick the first unit that fights.......think about it you charge in then you get to chose to swing first.

Add this mechanic to say a blackguard unit who have double the weapon range of most units, so you charge you strike first (with double the models)


Keep in mind, that's not by combat, but anywhere on the table. Suppose you have some Witch Elves stuck in melee from last turn, and on the other side of the table you charge with your Black Guard at someone else. Do NOT choose to go first with the Black Guard, choose the Witch Elves instead. Why? Because the Witch Elves suffer more casualties if their enemies hit them first, but if they go first they will kill enough of their opponents that they'll receive fewer attacks in return.

Your opponent will then *not* choose to attack the Witch Elves, because why would they? The Witch Elves have already attacked. Instead, they'll choose to go first in the combat with the Black Guard. Then you attack with the Black Guard, and finally your opponent attacks the Witch Elves.

(Or you could decide that it's more important to attack first with the Black Guard, and that Witch Elf casualties are an acceptable sacrifice. It all depends on which fight is more important to your strategy, what else is going on, which side is more vulnerable, etc.)

That's assuming that there are only two combats going on: the one with the Witch Elves and the one with the Black Guard. More likely there will be several melees going on at once and you'll have to decide where it's more important to go first. :)

Right now, people seem to be making the mistake of thinking that getting in the charge first is all-important and expecting to wipe out enemy units with one well-placed charge. It isn't, and they won't, unless it's a really small light unit, like 5 Shades, and even then it isn't a sure bet. It's nice to be the one to charge, but it's more important to position your units carefully and fight in the right place, and if your opponent breaks ranks and charges you instead, great! You've got them right where you want them :)

This won't last, people learn quickly. So take advantage of it now and get a head start on strategy, while the foolish are still busy with the wailing and the rending of the clothes ;)

Sangfroid wrote:
Just a ramble but it's not all doom and gloom :-)


On the contrary, it's all looking very bright!


Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:34 am
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Jvh792 wrote:
What quantifies as "an honest or desperate try"? I've played several games and watched every battle report that's on youtube. I will also be playing more games in a search wring out every ounce of strategy that's in this game. But please let me know when my comments are welcome on this thread XD
What you mention fits greatly the condition.
Please provide your reports, with any comment you might wish to add to make the experience of playing AoS a more enjoyable one.

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Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:37 am
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Executioner

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#barking agatha

You hit the nail on the head there I was kinda simplifying a single scenario to get the juices flowing, The more I read the deeper those 4 pages seem to be, for example a unit that begins its move within 3 inches of another unit can only stay put (for the next combat phase) or retreat if it does so it cannot run nor shoot, this reads that a unit of darkshards that is charged (and survives) can shoot the enemy then carry on the close combat or retreat and open up a space for something else to charge in.

Interesting mechanic and opens up a consideration to not only which scrolls you pick but tactics for which units you charge (with what) and which you shoot/magic to death instead


Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:58 am
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More proof that G.W. isn't taking this seriously at all.
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Via https://twitter.com/edgeblend/status/617968360505126912

I think G.W. is dead serious. I think it's going all-in. The rules feel incomplete, but I think that's because this is the introductory level designed for the starter box. That would go a long way in explaining the current state of it.

After all, this isn't a new edition. It's a new game. I think they are rebuilding it from the ground up, one step at a time.

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Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:13 am
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Slave (off the Altar)

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So far I'm really liking Age of Sigmar. It has definitely drawn me back into fantasy (I had recently switched to 40k).


Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:25 am
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Well if nothing else, it has gotten my wife to have a go after 10 years of marriage.
One quick game with 20 models a side last night. Identical armies of 10 corsairs, 5 DR's and 5 CoK's a side.

It's not WHFB, but it's not bad for an hour or so as an intro game if you just ignore or amend certain rules to your liking.

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Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:05 am
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I just realised that AoS just made this overpowered army legal again. Dark Elves for the win!


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Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:39 pm
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omg... I forgot about that video. It made me quit warhammer when I was a kid bc I was too embarrassed hahahahahahaha

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Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:34 am
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