HobbyKiller AOS Gaming Guide

[HobbyKiller]

After a lot of work and thought I am happy to present to you the HobbyKiller AOS gaming guide - designed to allow 2 players to have a meaningful game of AOS using all the rules at various sizes - thoughts and comments are very welcome - https://hobbykiller.wordpress.com/2015/ ... ing-guide/

[Calisson]

Thanks.
Quick reading, what are "ore rules" p.2?

● Each spell that can be cast ­ 1 choice
● If the war scroll can summon each spell costs 2 choices
=> Should I assume that it is 2 choices instead of 1?

● If the unit has a ranged weapon ­ 1 choice
=> Strange to see same impact for short range weapons (will be in melee next turn) and long range weapons (such as 20" or more, not liable to charge in one turn).

● If the unit has the ability to heal itself or others ­ 1 choice
=> please confirm that if this comes from a spell, that's in addition to the previous mentioned choices.

Noticed that no matter the save, the number of choices is not modified.


p.3: What is a pool? How does it work? Isn't pool size for 45 supposed to be greater, whatever it means?


p.4 Armour saves.
I'm curious to learn if your limit to AS is based on assumption or based on actual testing and finding it frustrating.


p.34 one number is in blue, for an unclear reason.


Thanks for the work.
I don't have the opportunity to play yet but I'm eager to try.
One might wonder why is there a need to add 10 p of rules to a 4 p ruleset...

[HobbyKiller]

Updated with Q and A - https://hobbykiller.wordpress.com/2015/ ... e-q-and-a/

[Daeron]

Thanks for the link. I'll definitely give it a read.

[Lord hajjij]

The obsession with comp is baffling to me. It's so easy just to balance the game through deployment or scenarios.

[Daeron]

I don't think the game is "balanced" and I lack experience to see it magically balance itself through scenarios and deployment. It would be great to be proven wrong but I needn't be.
I'm not saying it's impossible to have a fair game. I just don't think they focused on "balance", but instead focused on making every model and battle scenario feel the way it should feel on the tabletop.

Balancing the game to the point it feels suited for competitive gaming seems largelly left to the community. But I don't recall that being different from WFB. In fact, I tracked the tournaments in Belgium and found only 1 or 2 tournaments over the course of a year where I could deploy my 2400pts list as I wanted it and partake properly. Just goes to show how diverse WFB was as well

[Lord hajjij]

Daeron you have a great mind, especially with math/logic - but I think here, it would be impossible to "prove" you wrong. There is really no way to prove balance at all with the AoS deployment rules.

However, if you are seeking a "competitive game" it is fully possible in AoS. The difference is that the "list building" is done during the deployment phase rather than list building. You can now truly react to what your opponent is deploying (not to mention whatever scenario/realm/scenery you have on the table, which is a WHOLE NEW element as well!) with what you have in your model collection.

Yes, the downside here is that you can't pre-plan and buy/paint the exact models you need for a uber tough 2400 point force. So if that's why you play, then I do feel your pain because that's gone now.

By creating comp, we're back to square one. Certain units being over powered and certain being under powered because someone with their own thoughts/bias is telling you how much it's worth

I guess at the end of the day, I complained a lot at the beginning but now enjoy AoS more than WFB - so I wish people would actually try it seriously without IMMEDIATELY grasping for 8th edition.

[Amboadine]

Whilst you paint an interesting idea on how the balance could be derived by reacting to opponents deployment, surely this becomes a point of who has the biggest collection to choose from, and you can just keep deploying after your opponent stops.
It doesn't really either promote playing with anything other than the best elite units as why would you bother with anything else to handicap yourself.

[Lord hajjij]

I do concede that point. It is about the models to a certain extent. And it's also about you and your opponent wanting to have a fun game (i.e. I don't deploy 6 RBT and 80 RxB against your Stormcast Eternal starter set) and you can't literally control your opponent...well maybe you can if you're like me and are 6'5" 250...but I choose not to

How that works for tourney play - who knows. This is not a tourney game. But I can think up some stuff off the top of my head that's way cooler then just going back to the old "points" or "wounds". When you do it that way, why not just bring the best models for the points/wound value? Why bring a unit of 30 saurus if that's 30 wounds when you can get the same output for 15 temple guard?

[Daeron]

Well it's the "not a tourney game" part that I'm pointing at. Strictly speaking, according to the rules, in any scenario Black Guard would trump Dreadspears because they have the same wound count, model count, footprint. Unless there's an additional factor that changes this balance, this outcome is set for all scenarios.

I'm not saying it's impossible (or hard) to get a fair game going, but the game isn't for tournaments out of the box. I think a comp systems aims to provide a more refined benchmark. How that is achieved, well, who knows. There are many ways to achieve it, and it needn't be with points. But it's one way to achieve that.

[Lord hajjij]

I agree with all you’re saying. But comp systems do little to solve the problem you bring up. Take a look at a comp system like the proposed one - all we really did was flip what’s good to take and what’s not good to take based on an arbitrary points system. To illustrate, take your BG/Spears example:
--Black Guard = 5 model scroll, 2 points each: 2 points for 5
--Dreadspears = 10 model scroll, 1 point each: 2 points for 20

So now you’re stating that a Black Guard is 4x as valuable as a Dreadspear, which is really the exact opposite of where we started. And then you have things like the Cauldron of Blood slipping thru the cracks…I believe it is 1 point? A Dreadlord with Exile Blade and Tyrant Shield is 1 point where a Dreadlord with Chillblade is 3 points?

The game is meant to be played without these kinds of arbitrary restrictions now. If you want to play competitively in AoS, you just need to have a lot of models (don’t forget you can mix factions now...) rather than just have the BEST models based on the points system, and you tactically use them in the deployment phase to balance the game. I do get that this screws people who want to min/max a list, buy and paint ONLY those models and proceed to stomp people at a tournament with their unkillable, optimized deathstar. I used to be one of those, and it’s been liberating to shed that skin.

[Daeron]

The game is meant to be played without such restrictions, but within the context of competition I understand the desire to have fixed lists with additional restrictions. If only for logistical reasons. As long as the RAW game remains the default, a comp system can be an enrichment to the game.

As for your specific examples... Well... that's a wholly different discussion
I didn't see where the value of a Dreadlord changes based on equipment (only based on mount).
For the BGs vs Dreadspears, I think that's indeed a bit much in difference but let's see how 10 Black Guards do against 40 Dreadspears. Before any wounds are taken, both units have this output against one another:
The BG

The Dreadspears


While the BGs won't have the wounds to absorb such a fight for long, the Dreadspears will certainly take an asskicking.
How this synergises with other units is difficult to measure but let's buff both with the BSB and Cauldron's blessing:
The BG

The Dreadspears


Dreadspears can accept being activated later, seeing their body count can probably handle a few casualties and their attacks aren't the top out there. Black Guards, on the other hand, probably want to leave the tanking role to another by being activated quicker.
I think the Dreadspears win this one, but it could be noted that the BGs will play a more active role in eliminating a unit. Dreadspears are likely to take more damage than deal.

[Lord hajjij]

I am assuming your diagram takes into account the City Guard and Formidable Bastion rules as well?

Also you have a lot of hidden advantages from having more models in general, like:
--Less % lost from failed battleshock tests
--Higher bravery since you get a pip per 10 models
--Longer staying power, and the ability to activate that unit later in the combat round since they have the models to absorb losses
--Higher model count means that opponent has to kill more to win
--Probably more I'm not thinking about

In this particular case they also get re-rolls from Darkshields, and you could use your models to get access to the Druchii Warband warscroll rules as well if you wished.

I think it's safe to say that the advantages of 10 BG over 40 Spears are few and far between. (they do exist) Overall I agree with all your points especially in the first paragraph, so I think we're really discussing a moot point; my whole reason for responding in the first place was to submit an alternate viewpoint on the subject since there are so many comp systems popping up.

[Daeron]

Special rules have been taken into account. But it's surprising that, even in 4 dreadspears per BG the Bg still win in damage output. Obviously, they don't have the staying power. The dreadspears will easily lose twice as many models or more to Battleshock but that doesn't undo the 4 to 1 ratio.
It's a closer match than the 1 for 1 offered by the uncomped rules, but I too would pick the dreadspears without doubt unless I have the points to spare and a limited deployment zone.

[Lord hajjij]

I'd be interested in knowing the output of a Dreadlord using his command ability on Spears vs. BG if you've got the time. That's a combo I've been thinking about running and in my mind seems extremely killy.

Though, we're getting off topic here

[Daeron]

10 BGs with re-roll to wound:

40 Dreadspears with re-roll to wound + formiddable bastion

40 Dreadspears with re-roll to wound + formiddable bastion + city guard