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Holy **** Summoning 
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Executioner
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I was watching youtube today ,miniwargmaing, Vampire counts vs Skaven and Lizardman vs Vampire Counts and that summoning is crazy. I need to read the war scrolls to full understand, but it seems like it possible to recoup almost all your loses every turn. I have heard about summoning an seen some batreps where there was some summoning but nothing like what was going on in these two games.
I have a couple questions on this. First what are our the DE counters to summoning? It didn't seem like in either game there was much of a way to counter it. Second is summoning a a huge game changer in a battle? I watched three battle reps where the ability of summoning basically was what won the game. Finally, why the hell can we summon anything :P !mad! :twisted: :evil: :( ?

But for real, what are your tactics on how to control summoning and making sure that you are not overwhelmed but masses of lizards, ghouls, and demons?

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Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:53 am
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I haven't faced summoners yet... but I don't see the problem. I think one of the reasons it "seems" powerful is because people balance their game based on what's on the table, instead of what could be on the table.
Say you have a summoner, and put 40 zombies on the side for summoning during battle. Nothing whatsoever in the rules of AoS prohibits the summoning player from deploying the 40 zombies in the first place, instead of having to summon them. I tend to look at summoning like a delayed deploy. All it really offers is a chance to get a sudden death scenario.
In terms of balance, it's simple: that summoner is worth as much as his own abilities and the army you think it can summon. So if an opponent would deploy 5 summoners, I would deploy 2-3 armies and the scenario would be "Stop the summoners from raising an army!".

One of the problems, I guess, is that people like to play with comp systems which give points or something to summoners. If you comp the game, then you introduce the imbalance in the first place by limiting the options of the opponent to deal with the summoner. Additionally, summoners tend to be valued a little higher than casters in most systems that I have seen, when their worth should be closer to that of a small army.

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Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:19 am
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PhD in Dark Magic
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Like Daeron, I haven't faced many summoners yet. However, my go-to approach would be to kill them as quickly as possible (my bolt throwers tend to aim at wizards in any event), and to get my own casters within 18" to make unbinding attempts on any summoning spells. Yes, it's not ideal, and summoning can provide a reasonable tactical advantage, but a dead summoner can't bring any more units onto the table.

The other point to be made is that, if a caster is summoning models, they're not casting Mystic Shield or any other decent spells which can really turn a combat. The summoning spells are often harder to cast than the basic two, meaning that there's a reasonable chance of failure. Yes, Tzeentch Daemons and Undead special characters are an exception, but they tend to be larger targets which are more easily shot at, and which are decent enough in combat that your opponents are likely to want to get maximum bang for their buck.

Lastly, do not forget those oh-so-lovely Time of War rules which allow you to pull a once-per-game deployment of Stormcasts if you're an Order or Destruction force. If you've got the AOS starter set, drop the Lord-Celestant on Dracoth to begin with - the Stormcasts summoned using the Time of War rules are not restricted from moving in that turn, and can charge as well, so the Dracoth-riding Lord-Celestant is likely to smash through just about whatever he charges. Even small units of Prosecutors will also be able to single out summoners for shooting attacks, and can charge a long way from their initial deployment using this rule to exploit any gaps in the enemy's lines. The best defence against this tactic would be to kill the general or to castle up with the summoners - which in turn, reduces their utility due to the range restrictions on summoning. Okay, Slann using Arcane Vassal will avoid this problem, but you can't have everything...

I'm sure I'm over-simplifying matters, and that summons could really be a substantial problem if the opponent drops Nagash or Fateweaver. However, they can be overcome with a bit of luck and forward planning, even in uncomped play.

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Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:02 am
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Kill the summonor as quickly a possible. As DE, we have RBT's that target nearly the whole tabletop if deployed correctly. I also save a unit of 10 Shades for deployment after I see where the opponent deploys his summonor. An extra sorceress on Black Dragon would also give you a model that can quickly get within dispel range and can hold it's own in combat for a turn or two if it gets mobbed.

I have a little more trouble with the Chaos Lord's Unending Legion ability, personally. 50% chance to call a unit of any size onto the table (which can charge the turn it shows up) almost guarantees that I will have at least one large unit of Chaos Knights charging into me from the rear.

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Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:33 am
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Bear in mind that summoners are always single characters, so they can be shooted or magic missiled.

Also, DE players can always summon, by taking non-DE models. In AoS, nothing prevents you to play your DE army along with Nagash as a guest star.

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Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:47 pm
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Calisson wrote:
Bear in mind that summoners are always single characters, so they can be shooted or magic missiled.


There is one exception: Pink Horrors, who can (in theory) chain-summon as many additional units of 10 Pink Horrors as are available if they can keep rolling 6+ on 2 dice. If there are nearby Heralds of Tzeentch, that becomes a 5+.

Thankfully, they are lousy in combat, have average shooting abilities, and a 5+ save.

Calisson wrote:
Also, DE players can always summon, by taking non-DE models. In AoS, nothing prevents you to play your DE army along with Nagash as a guest star.


Fateweaver or a Lord of Change can also do a decent job as a dedicated summoner, since he can cast two spells per turn, always counts as rolling a double of the highest result on his casting or unbinding dice, and knows every spell of every other wizard in your army who is within 18" (Fateweaver) or learns the enemy's spells if he rolls 9+ on an unbinding roll (Lord of Change - in effect, this also happens if either of your dice come up as a 5 or 6).

The thought of a Lord of Change spamming Undead or Seraphon summoning spells has brought a rather large smile to my face...

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Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:33 am
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Daeron wrote:
Say you have a summoner, and put 40 zombies on the side for summoning during battle. Nothing whatsoever in the rules of AoS prohibits the summoning player from deploying the 40 zombies in the first place, instead of having to summon them.
I guess the summoner could resummon them when they are killed, though, whereas without a summoner they are dead when dead.

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Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:50 pm
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Technically... Summoning and resummoning is the same. It's still a delayed deloyment. Is it powerful? Yes. But you're free to counter it as you wish.

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Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:44 am
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Yes, but if you have 10 human warriors on the board and they are killed without a summoner present, they die and depart the game for good. If you have ten zombies on the board with a summoner and they die, they can be summoned again. Then if they die again, they can be summoned again. But those 10 human warriors who died without a summoner present are gone from the game for good. Ergo, the summoner can generate the effect of having endless waves from the same basic number of models, while the non-summoner is limited to one use of the each model per game.

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Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:16 pm
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Well I'm sure I understood that the first time :P
My point is, just look at all he (re)summoned over the course of a game. If 1 summoner brings 40 zombies, or more, on the table then that's how powerful you should estimate them to be. If an opponent puts 5 Summoners on the table, then that's almost the equivalent of putting 2-3 armies of undead on the table. I would counter that by deploying a very large army and that would be the scenario: an army trying to stop a group of summoners from raising an even bigger army. According to the rules this is a perfectly viable game.

Of course, if you introduce a comp system or logic that balances a summoner to be the equivalent of a Dreadlord, then you have a problem.

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"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."
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Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:30 am
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Corsair
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Actually, there is a limit to the number of models you can place on the table.
Supposing both sides are full of models, then you cannot counter the one who may summon replacements - except by summoning on yoru own or managing to kill the summoners in a crowded mass.

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Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:37 pm
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The best way to deal with summonings is to eat up their space. Summoned units appear within 18" of the summoner and more than 9" from any of your models, and that's not a very large area on a typical 6' by 4' table if your troops take the centre. Pretty soon they end up summoning them on their own table edge, with the summoners out in front, which is fine :)


Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:09 pm
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