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An essay on role models and Druchii.net 
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Shade
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One thing to point out perhaps, in regards to Damnation's comment, is that what might not seem all that racist to you may be way too racist for me.. and even though you personally dont find it tasteless, can you say that everyone would/should agree with your view and definition?

I tend to be in agreement with Archduke, at least in that it is difficult to say this is bad and that isnt. I have not been on D.NEt long enough to notice any favoritisim or anything of that nature, and thus far.. if its happening, I aint seen it.. Of course I've only been here a few weeks or so.

As for messages. Typos and mistakes happen, as does poor grammar. For myself I dont look at participation here as writing essays or Scholastic assignments, but rather a place to come and hold a conversation. I'm not advocating text speak by any means, but conversational tone and a relaxed atmosphere is not a bad thing in my humble opinion.

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Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:30 pm
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Lord of Khorne
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Eldacar wrote:
Person 1 wrote:
Rork & co are doing a good job
Person 2 wrote:
I think Rork and co. are doing a good job

You'd think little Rorkles was the only administrator around.


Well, I do tend to sp-...ahem, post more than most of the other admins ;).

As I mentioned in my announcement, we're not looking for utter perfection, only that you put some effort into writing it. I'm a relatively 'hands off' mod, and only intervene when posters are just posting rubbish - if it's awful, I'll make them start again. Action has to be precise ;).

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Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:51 pm
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Altough I agree in general with Damnation, that good grammer is something to value and to persuit. I'm also convinced that people don't always realise the age off the persons on this forum and the fact that for many of them english is not their first language.

Hell, most of the time, it even isn't their second language. (for me at least)

This is for me the most important reason why most posts on warhammer-forums are a bit simple, badly written or just not always so nuanced as the poster intended.

A grammer-police is not really the answer here, as it will only discourage possible young posters. We have over 10 000 register members and most off them never post, is a complain we often hear on druchii.net. The grammer is certainly a part of the reason why they aren't always that much people on-line.

I think a certain reservation is far more constructive.

Kergoth

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Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:49 pm
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Brolock
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Basically, I think that if you have a problem with someone's grammar, report it. If the mods deem it bad, they'll address the problem, if they don't find anything wrong, then you will know you're probably being a bit oversensitive to their spelling problems. The report button is there for a reason, lets use it.

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Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:36 pm
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Agrees with Loki, if you think a post is really bad on the grammar or spelling side, either ignore it or click the little R and then a mod can either edit it or delete it as they see fit.

The mod can also add a little teasing comment to the poster to address the issue if it keeps happening.

Everyone makes small little mistakes as they type, some will get noticed and corrected (about 4 by me so far this post) whilst others will escape notice. I don't think people are complaining about occassional errors (or should) just completely illegible posts.

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Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:04 pm
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Witch Elf
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No one minds tiny errors or typos, we all make them. What we moderators have set out to remove is the posts that you actually have to sit down and re-read in order to understand.

If you miss a comma or capital letter no one will hunt you down!

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Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:11 pm
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Brolock
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Linda Lobsta Defenda wrote:

If you miss a comma or capital letter no one will hunt you down!

Suuuuuure, that's how it starts. And next thing you know, I'm being banned for spelling it 'armor' instead of 'armour'. ;)

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Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:23 pm
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Lyhne wrote:
I agree with that people capable of writing properly, should do this.


Eh? ;)

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Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:26 pm
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Loki17 wrote:
Suuuuuure, that's how it starts. And next thing you know, I'm being banned for spelling it 'armor' instead of 'armour'. ;)
As it should be Image

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Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:19 pm
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Loki17 wrote:
Suuuuuure, that's how it starts. And next thing you know, I'm being banned for spelling it 'armor' instead of 'armour'. ;)


Yea, but that'd be because it's you. We don't want your American way of spelling around here!

HatesHighElves wrote:
Lyhne wrote:
I agree with that people capable of writing properly, should do this.

Eh? ;)


Soo.... One word... I could count that as spam ;).

_Lyhne
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Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:39 pm
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This discussion has actually lasted two pages?

I don't think I would criticise a single thing about how the Moderators handle things. I think they do a perfectly fine job of cleaning up the majority of the garbage, and if they miss a thing here or there or *gasp* demonstrate an error in judgement, oh well - I just appreciate the effort. Likewise, I think the VAST majority of the membership does set a great example for each other, though you all might try lightening up just a little bit.

I actually have a solution that I'd like to propose that I think might make almost everybody happy. I propose that the Admins create a new forum, it can be called the "Forum for people with poor self esteem who can only increase their sense of self worth by pointing out all the imperfections of others". In this new forum, any member of Druchii.net can start a thread where they discuss the imperfections of other posters, and offer expert advice on how to achieve perfection in the content of posts, the quality of any other thread or advice on how to completely change the way that our imperfect Moderators handle everything. This way, everybody that thinks this subject is a big deal can get together and enjoy each other's company, and the rest of us can talk about Warhammer until we become wise enough to join them.

I'm sorry if my opinion hurt any of your feelings. I still genuinely like most of you, and accept you even with all your faults.

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Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:49 am
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Arnold Layne
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It is rather a big deal. It's not on the magnitude of say, politics/religion or copyright infringement, which can have serious legal repercussions, but it matters. On this point we walk a line between having a board that is too tightlipped to function properly, and having a board that is way too casual and informal to ever be taken seriously - both situations which could result in the site's premature demise. This devolves to the question of to what extent the mods and other members should attempt to keep us on that line. It's a broad and fuzzy line, for members and mods, and so it is very difficult to know whether one pushes too far, or even in the right direction. Of course, the final responsibility lies with each member, mod or not, but some members are and will be habitually irresponsible.

There are some members, who seem to take no care whatsoever that their posts should be readable. Some may have good medical or psychological reasons for doing so. Should ordinary members approach such people? It's difficult. You want people to post something that doesn't have to be assiduously deciphered, but if they won't respond to pleas, is it because they have a disability, or a mental condition? You don't want to offend anybody. You gotta have some cojones to pop that question. I wouldn't touch it with my longest, crappiest poopstick.

The original point of my post, and this thread, is : people appreciate baing spoken to politely and clearly. If we have a board littered with nigh unintelligible rubbish, people who browse it are going to see all that, and say wow, unintelligible rubbish, I'll hie me hence to ulthuan.net. We lose members. We don't gain new ones. Dnet dies an agonising, pointless death. And not because we are idiots, but because, as Rork said in his announcement, we look like idiots.

People appreciate being spoken to clearly and politely. Clarity, politeness, these are the marks of respect, consideration - compassion, even (said the Dark Elf!).
I appreciate it, Tarbo appreciates it, Belial appreciates it (rather violently), and so, no doubt, do many other members, and many future members too.

So the responsibility to present ourselves as a group of intelligent respectful people rest with each and every member. But what can we do as a group, to manage those who will not take up their part in that responsibility? Those, for whom the good example set by those who have posted in this thread, is not encouragement enough? I say encouragement, because as eyeball points out, often this sort of problem stems from a lack of confidence, and so encouragement is the cure. This goes for both the intial problem, and the heavy-handed response.

There are, have been, and will be some members who just do not respond. What do we do? Just live with them? Ignore them? If it is confidence they need, how do we give it to them?

Over to you, dnet.

Layne.

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Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:06 am
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Hold everyone’s horses for a moment.

I see people complaining about how "leet" speak is not tolerated. But seriously, I haven't seen one single post which contains "leet" speak. I mean, there might be the occasional "lol" or "N00b", but this is the most you will ever see within a post. Sometimes there is a "leet" sentence but normally the person is doing this in a joking way and the sentence isn't even that long, not more then 7 words to be precise. But hey, maybe it's just me and I haven't seen any fully fledged "leet" posts.

But I'm a "frequent" on D.net and I have never seen a full "leet" post.

So why are you people complaining about "leet" speak on these Forums when there is little to none at all? Everyone can accept a “lol” at the end of their sentence.

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Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:53 am
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Arnold Layne wrote:
So the responsibility to present ourselves as a group of intelligent respectful people rest with each and every member. But what can we do as a group, to manage those who will not take up their part in that responsibility? Those, for whom the good example set by those who have posted in this thread, is not encouragement enough? I say encouragement, because as eyeball points out, often this sort of problem stems from a lack of confidence, and so encouragement is the cure. This goes for both the initial problem, and the heavy-handed response.


Encouragement is probably the best way to go. I think there is not enough of that around here. I think again because certain personalities are more attracted to druchii, druchii.net is inordinately critical and unforgiving of members. The main thing I have a problem with is when some people are just complete assholes to other members without just cause. And, in all fairness, that tends to make me act like an asshole to said person, which, if I am being honest, really probably isn't much more defensible. As a general rule, people are defensive when criticized, although occasionally shaming can produce change. People are by and large much more responsive to positive encouragement. But, of course, encouragement can't really be a forum policy, so that is the choice of the individual poster. At best we can discourage being discouraging.

Quote:
There are, have been, and will be some members who just do not respond. What do we do? Just live with them? Ignore them? If it is confidence they need, how do we give it to them?

Over to you, dnet.

Layne.


This is half of the problem in my opinion. The first half, which I think has yet to be clearly articulated, is what our standards as a community really are, a mission statement of sorts. The second half, as you say, is definitely, how do we respond to people who don't meet those standards. I am personally in favor of the "ignore them as policy, deal with them as individuals" strategy, but that's largely because I have seen that approach work on a couple other forums. Maybe it wouldn't work here because the audience is more diverse, or younger, or just has a different attitude. I just prefer to treat people as adults, and to approach them with argument rather than coercion when they don't. I would rather persuade people that adopting certain behaviors is right, since that may actually produce real change in a persons outlook and behavior. Banning in my opinion is just a short term strategy that pushes the problem out of sight and onto someone else. Ultimately, as a social strategy, that just pushes people into cliques of like minded individuals and doesn't really foster growth, understanding, or cooperation between individuals. I for one would sooner be forced into a position of trying to get along with people I dislike than I would surround myself only with people of like mind.

As an individual website, Druchii.net is irrelevant, but as a growing social attitude I think Druchii.net reflects a social trend that is a serious problem. Most people laugh at the idea of analyzing something like Druchii.net so much, and acting like it matters, because most people have a hard time connecting something as trivial as Druchii.net to something as big as social dynamics. But, society isn't really much more than the reflection of its working parts. Yes, Druchii.net is but one small cell in the social body. You can always dismiss that cell as an isolated thing. But eventually, when enough cells go wrong, the body becomes ill. You can always ignore that illness, and wave it aside, letting it run its course, but I am of the opinion that when it comes to illness, and an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. It's the easiest thing to pretend the things we say and do don't matter and don't have an impact. But like it or not, we are not isolated individuals floating in the ether. We are all responsible to one another in our words and actions, and to abdicate that responsibility is nothing less than narcissism.

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Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:10 am
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Arnold Layne wrote:
Belial appreciates it (rather violently


You do what you gotta do ;)

As to the subject in hand, I think it's hard to find a substantial solution that is appliable. It the end, it all comes down to the mentality of people here. If everyone writes their posts the best they can, then that is all we can ask, and all we can do. But everyone should be doing that in the first place. If Rork's announcement and a flurry of PM's to offenders cannot solve it, then what can we do? We can ban a select few really bad offenders, but it's hard to ban on the grounds that "your language is not good enough for us, you lazy git".


Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:59 am
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Brolock
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Khel wrote:
Hold everyone’s horses for a moment.

I see people complaining about how "leet" speak is not tolerated. But seriously, I haven't seen one single post which contains "leet" speak. I mean, there might be the occasional "lol" or "N00b", but this is the most you will ever see within a post. Sometimes there is a "leet" sentence but normally the person is doing this in a joking way and the sentence isn't even that long, not more then 7 words to be precise. But hey, maybe it's just me and I haven't seen any fully fledged "leet" posts.

But I'm a "frequent" on D.net and I have never seen a full "leet" post.

So why are you people complaining about "leet" speak on these Forums when there is little to none at all? Everyone can accept a “lol” at the end of their sentence.


I think people are combining leet speak and text speak. I've seen certain members that frequently talked in the manner of "I think my army is 2 good. Do u think so 2?".

At any rate, I don't think our board is "littered" with such posts, their are a few members who come and go, but its not so bad as a social breakdown.

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Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:42 am
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Quote:
The first half, which I think has yet to be clearly articulated, is what our standards as a community really are, a mission statement of sorts. The second half, as you say, is definitely, how do we respond to people who don't meet those standards. I am personally in favor of the "ignore them as policy, deal with them as individuals" strategy, but that's largely because I have seen that approach work on a couple other forums.


I figure I should weigh in here as I haven't been around for a couple of years and can see what has changed here since.

I believe what chocula has said has a lot of merit, perhaps druchii.net does need to make(or revise) a mission statement. I know personally I left the site following the revision because the direction seemed to be lost to a certain extent.

From the few threads that I have read in the last week I don't think D.net is too terrible grammatically compared to other warhammer sites. This site has always had an elitist attitude and those who are heavily involved do tend to see those below them as far inferior; this causes issues like this to arise. Most of us who have posted in this thread are aware of the effects our presentation has but that isn't to say that everyone does.

I suggest that the second half of chocula's statement is followed as well, each offender should be dealt with in stages. First, they should be sent an "awareness PM", that is a PM telling them what they have done wrong; often someone who is not aware of what their presentation is doing will need to have this pointed out, those who are aware may need a wake up call. If this persists warnings and bannings should follow.

The elitist attitudes here have always been a part of the D.net culture and will always be so long as the site exists; I suggest that this becomes embraced officially and used to remove those who don't meet the sites standards. Does this sound draconian? maybe it is, but there is no point wearing a facade if we all know what is truly happening. There will always be exceptions to the rules, and yes there should be policy in place to not discriminate against those with good reason; but those who are simply acting juvenile should be dealt with accordingly.

I hope I haven't offended anybody here but this is the culture I see permeating from D.net, it always has and it always will, we just have to realize that it is not necessarily a bad thing


Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:52 pm
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Lord of Khorne
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AvatarofSlaanesh wrote:
I hope I haven't offended anybody here but this is the culture I see permeating from D.net, it always has and it always will, we just have to realize that it is not necessarily a bad thing


That really rather depends on your definition of elitism. If you mean elitism in the sense of "We have a group of highly experienced players who know a lot about Dark Elves and Warhammer", then fine. That's true in many respects.

However, elitism can be viewed as "a group of people who set themselves above others and believe their opinions to be superior" - it teeters towards arrogance.

I have been around a long time and been 'outside' and 'inside' the organisation. The 'fight' against elitism is aimed at the latter category, who are far more annoying than most other issues on the board.

And in terms of juvenile behaviour, there has to be some tolerance. Warhammer is a game aimed at people 12 and up. We have to welcome them and direct their (over-) enthusiasm accordingly.

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Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:07 pm
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AvatarofSlaanesh wrote:
I suggest that the second half of chocula's statement is followed as well, each offender should be dealt with in stages. First, they should be sent an "awareness PM", that is a PM telling them what they have done wrong; often someone who is not aware of what their presentation is doing will need to have this pointed out, those who are aware may need a wake up call. If this persists warnings and bannings should follow.


That's pretty much how we do it already. Except that we have, at least in some cases, been giving many, many chances, before banning people.


Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:10 pm
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The Jewel-Eyed One
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Quote:
And in terms of juvenile behaviour, there has to be some tolerance. Warhammer is a game aimed at people 12 and up. We have to welcome them and direct their (over-) enthusiasm accordingly.


This is true, and is a good point. In the past I have always been proud of the culture of D.net and believe that this mentoring aspect should always be present; but it should also come with the expectation that effort is put in on both sides, this includes the proper use of english.


Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:35 am
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Shade
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Well..
What I admit I find interesting is the use of editing seems random. I just opened a thread in which a staffer edited the original post for spelling errors and admonishes the poster to be more careful.. and then I look at the next thread in the list and the title of that one is spelled incorretly and no one seems to care?
Why does poor spelling in a post warrant more attention and need of modification than a thread title?

My point is that it is rather unfair and rude to modify some posts for spelling and not modify others. Either the standard should be applied evenly or not at all.

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Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:33 pm
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Well we must remember that some posts may be not be perfect but they can still be understood, while others are beyond that. It is up to the mods to choose which ones need to be fixed and which need just a friendly pm. To fix every post is an impossible job so we must pick and choose which to fix and which to pm.

Trust the mods, afterall they became mods the druchii way, "removing" the others and taking their power.

Until further notice I shall be hiding from their wrath. ;)

-crazyhorse

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Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:48 pm
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I understand, and please understand I have the utmost respect for the admins here. Heck, I'm a new guy here and feel a little wierd making these comments, however I still stand by my feeling that a rule should apply evenly to all or else it is arbitrary and open for abuse. (Not saying the Mods here would, just saying the potential is present.)
My suggestion would be PMs and not active editing unless Mods are willing to edit across the board.

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Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:10 pm
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The moderators can't be everywhere at once. Of course one thread is going to slip through their net. Plus you must remember that most moderators control a single Forum, sometimes two. For example Belial and Lyhne are Moderators of the off topic forum. So let's say Rork or Loki17 came along and saw something amiss. They would alert Belial or Lyhne to it's presence and the hunters would clean it up as soon as possible.

Hunters? What hunters? Us? Nah, we wouldn't do stuff like that. We just hang around and glare menacingly at people...

_Lyhne
Mod...

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Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:16 pm
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Khel, did you just mistake me for a Mod? I don't know whether I should be insulted or flattered.

Arcadian: I haven't seen the post you're talking about, or what it was like before it was cleaned up, but I'll give an example of what the mods probably think about before they edit something. If its barely legible, they'll probably fix it. If it has a few mistakes, then they'll probably ignore it. For example:
O hai i herd u liek mudkipz
and
Oh hi, I herd you like mudkips.
The first has many errors, including a lack of punctuation, it will probably be addressed by the mods. The second one, has 1 spelling error and fairly good punctuation, as such, it will be let go. Basically, its not worth the time to fix one spelling error.

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Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:30 pm
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