2500 vs WoC

Nellamik · Post by **Nellamik** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:39 am

Before I fall on my sword, I feel obligated to tell all so that others may benifit from my mistakes. This was my 2nd game in the 8th with my Dark elf legions. I played a veteran warhammer player whom I have known for years, He brought a interesting WoC army at 2500 points.

Nellamik's 10th Dragon LegionDragon lord on Black dragon Heavy armour shield Sea dragon cloak
Xbow Crimson death Crown of command and Pendant of Khaeleth

Death Hag cauldren of blood BSB
L2 Sorceress, Dark star cloak, Lore of Metal
L2 Sorceress, Seal of Ghrond, Tome of Furion, Lore of Shadow

29 Warriors spears Light armour shields FC
20 repeate Xbows light armour standard & musician
13 Corsairs 2HW Light armour Sea Dragon Cloak FC & Sea Serpant Banner
5 Dark rider repeater Xbows & musician
5 Harpies
5 Shades
15 Black guard FC, War banner
Cold one chariot
War Hydra

Vs WoC (Best I can remember)
General -Slaanesh Lord on Slaanesh steed, shield, Trickster's helm
Sorcerer Lord of shadow
Exaulted hero BSB

42 Nurgle Maruaders, light armour & Flails
36 Nurgle Warriors, Halberds
14 Slaanesh Knights, Encorcelled weapons
Hellcannon

Set up Terrain; From my left to right, The Charnel pit in my left corner, an ordinary hill on my left in the center, next a fungus wood on my side in the center, a normal river that cut through the center left to right on a diagnal, a Dwarf brewhouse (We used the fortified mansion) smack dab in the center, another wood on his side, a skree slope hill (Diffucult terrain) and the Idol of Gork on the far right in the center. Nothing was set up in the deployment area's except the Charnel pit and the river at points.

His sorcerer rolled, Pit of shades Okkam's Mindrazor, the withering and elected the Sig spell Melkoth's Mistifying Miasma.
My L2 with shadow and Tome of furion rolled 3,3,2 The enfeebling Foe, the Withering twice so she exchanged for pit of shades.
My L2 with Metal rolled 3,6 Glittering robe and Final transmutation which she exchanged for Sig. spell Searing Doom. I felt she may get the the SS off eiasier.

Deployment; He deployed his Knights with the Lord to my far left next the Warrioirs with the BSB and then the Marauders with th L4 in the center lined up with the Brewhouse.
I deployed From my left to right Hydra BG Xbows Corsairs Spears CoC and dark riders to the right 12" in. My dragon was behind th xbows then the Death hag cauldren in the center and harpies behind the spears 6" in. Shades went to my right in his deployment area that was empty.

WoC won the roll to go first and did.

Woc 1st turn; He promtly put a direct hit from the hellcannon on my Dragonlord that netted 4 W's on the dragon (Good start huh) then he moved everything but the HC up. So now his Knights were on top of the hill on the left with the warriors next to them and the mauraders right in front of the Brewhouse. In his magic phase he cast Mistifying Miasma on the BG and the withering on the Hydra.
DE turn; Moved the DL to safety behind the brewhouse DR had used the Vangaurd already and moved into his deployment area on the right along wth the harpies.
Everything else stayed static just moving a little to set up for the charges that were comming. My magic phase I managed to get off Searing doom on the knights killing 3. My shooting got another and scored a W on the hellcanon.
WoC 2nd turn His knights charged the BG, his warriors moved to charge position on the left of the brewhouse and the marauders occupied the brewhouse.
His Hellcannon scored another direct hit on the spearmen killing 19 (Brutal) The knights took thier toll on the BG who had the ward from the cauldren.
DE turn I charged the knights with the hydra whom I had managed to dispell the withering from. I moved the DL into charge position on the hellcannon along with the dark riders and shades. Moved the remaining spears and corsairs to set up a flank charge when the warriors charged. Shooting scored another W on the HC.
In CC the knights finished the BG who now had the killing blow the Hydra lost CR and fled off the board. His knights combat reformed to face my Xbows left flank.
WoC 3rd turn Knights charged the xbows who lost CR and were caught fleeing. His warriors charged my Corsairs through the fungus forest. His knights were now setup to charge my corsairs left flank. His warriors took 2 W's and my Corsairs held after loses. His hellcannon failed his stability test (which he wanted) and charged my DL.
DE turn. I charged the warriors right flank with my 10 spearmen that were left. I also charged the HC with the DR's and shades.
During my magic phase I cast Pit of shades on his Knights, it scattered into my Cauldren killing it of course. My dragon died in CC next leaving the DL on foot and the remaining corsairs died as well. Not too much was going my way except I managed to get the hellcannon down to 1 W remaining.

I conceded on turn 4. I may have been able to kill his Hellcannon had we continued but that would have been all the points I would get. And at that point I had little left. My multiple small units (MSU) were just no match for his Large blocks.

Things should have done; Use the Cauldren BSB to reroll failed break test mainly the xbows. When chosing the shadow spell, Punumbral pendulum would have been better than Pit of shades to hit his Hellcannon with. Garrisoned the brewhouse with the harpies on turn one replacing them with xbows & L2 turn two.
Mistakes; Using the DL vs the HC was a mistake he should have flanked the knights or warriors. My Hydra attacked his lord in CC and should have hit the Knights instead.
Dragon & Hydra could not use thunderstomp in the matchups vs warmachines & Cav. The way I positioned my corsairs for a flank attack after he charged my spears and gave him the chance to charge them instead.

Good things; The lore of metal & shadow.

My List; I think using a DL at this point level was a mistake.

Burizan · Post by **Burizan** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:29 pm

Nice writeup, you don't often see people talk about their defeats so I'm gonna take this as a sign your up for some feedback

DLs in general are very good in 2500, but best when combined with a sorceress. Generally speaking dragons are less effective, but if you want to use one I'm not going to tell you not to.

Pit of shades was definitely the choice spell for getting hellcannons, but I would rather have had okkams - any of your units can suddenly destroy those knights easily. The very best spell against chaos warriors, chosen, and chaos knights is final transmutation. Swapping it was a MASSIVE mistake, for the price of a miscast you could have killed either ~12 warriors (worth over 200 points) or ~ 5 knights, again 200 points. At the same time you can cause stupidity tests - WoC HATE stupidity tests, as ld 7/8 is simply too low, even if they get the BSB reroll. Casting it normally is easily enough as well, as it has a wonderfully low cast value.

As for garrisoning the brewhouse with harpies, 10 marauder attacks -> average 5 hits, wounding on 2s. In the event you survive you have terrible leadership.

Did you use the large pit when it scattered into your cauldron? It's also a very ineffective spell for killing anything except hellcannons in that army

Nellamik · Post by **Nellamik** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:33 pm

Nice writeup, you don't often see people talk about their defeats so I'm gonna take this as a sign your up for some feedback

Yes thanks for the feedback. I don't feel it is fair to only report your glorious wins and leave out your terrible loses. Besides nobody here would know me if they saw me. Again we are here to learn from each other.

Pit of shades was definitely the choice spell for getting hellcannons, but I would rather have had okkams - any of your units can suddenly destroy those knights easily. The very best spell against chaos warriors, chosen, and chaos knights is final transmutation. Swapping it was a MASSIVE mistake, for the price of a miscast you could have killed either ~12 warriors (worth over 200 points) or ~ 5 knights, again 200 points. At the same time you can cause stupidity tests - WoC HATE stupidity tests, as ld 7/8 is simply too low, even if they get the BSB reroll. Casting it normally is easily enough as well, as it has a wonderfully low cast value.

All very good points, thanks for that.
I don't believe I was thinking very clearly that day.

Did you use the large pit when it scattered into your cauldron? It's also a very ineffective spell for killing anything except hellcannons in that army

Yes I used the large template.

Burizan · Post by **Burizan** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:53 am

large template for any of the scatter spells don't seem to work out. Scattering 2d6 means if you don't roll a hit (1 in 3) you will almost certainly miss the target, and it is very prone to backfiring, as you saw.

I would like to write up some of my defeats but I'm always too depressed: they would turn into a combination of whining and sympathy searching

Nellamik · Post by **Nellamik** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:45 am

large template for any of the scatter spells don't seem to work out. Scattering 2d6 means if you don't roll a hit (1 in 3) you will almost certainly miss the target, and it is very prone to backfiring, as you saw.

Oh yeah I saw it alright. So you are saying it's better to use the small template with all template spells? My opponant said the same thing about the pit of shades.

I would like to write up some of my defeats but I'm always too depressed: they would turn into a combination of whining and sympathy searching

Well we should learn from our mistakes and I want to remember them. Repeating them is worse. Plus now you have given me some insight on a few things that I didn't realize before. That is a win isn't it?

Burizan · Post by **Burizan** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:05 pm

If it scatters more to use a large template then go small. Depending on base size a small template can scatter maybe 3/4 inches (about average, excluding direct hits) and still hit the target, while the average 7 inches takes you away from everything. Things like black horror don't scatter though, so they're pretty safe

This is very true, but I have long ago learnt that to improve I need to spot my mistakes, and differentiate between decisions that went badly from misfortune and those that were just plain silly. Luckily I also have experienced players to point them out for me.

It's not always black and white though. For example in a desperate situation you might need to be lucky to have a chance of winning, and you can't always get lucky if you don't make 'mistakes'

Tethlis · Post by **Tethlis** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:18 pm

Interesting report, and definitely many thanks for discussing the setbacks as well as the wins. Losses are almost always more informative and useful to learn from for all concerned, so this is a very useful battle report. Your own thoughts on the battle seem very insightful.

A few observations of mine, for what they're worth:
-You have a lot of points invested in characters, and I mean a lot. In 8th edition, I never try to load up more than 33% of my list with characters. If you're using the full allowance of 25% Lord, 25% Hero, then you're almost definitely not going to have enough troops left to actually finish the job. To elaborate on this idea, you see a lot of players out there complaining about the power of unit-destroying mega spells and large templates. Why are these such issues? Because they're great at destroying characters, character-bunkered Deathstar units, and eradicating rank-and-file troops off the bored. They excel at fighting character heavy lists without many troops, because they can easily kill the characters or the troops and then focus on whatever's left. By going lighter on characters, and by taking more Core and Special choices, you're more resistant to those types of threats.

-I miss using my Dragonlord, who was a staple of my 7th edition list. However, he's just very tricky to use in 8th edition. It's obviously very unlucky that you took 4 wounds on Turn 1, but I also think you needed your dragon to help you deal with the unit of Chaos Knights and Chaos Warrior; those are exactly the kinds of units he's good at countering.

-Against Warriors and Knights, where you charge isn't nearly as relevant as what you charge. By that, I mean that Chaos Warriors and Knights really don't care about being charged in the flank, front or rear. Obviously, they'd rather fight an enemy to the front, but they have so many attacks and such tremendous killing power that they can fight off flank and rear attacks with ease. Unless you're completely certain you're bringing overwhelming odds to bear, I really wouldn't bother charging them at all with Elves. In many cases, light units like spearmen or corsairs will contribute negligible combat resolution, and just feed kills to the enemy. It's better not to charge at all, than to charge and lose.

-I have fought against the Hellcannon several times now in 8th, and I know how frustrating it is to see monsters and regiments decimated. Unfortunately, there isn't much you can do except try to hunt the Hellcannon when possible, and make sure you have enough bodies on the table to suffer a few direct hits and still have the units left to finish the job. I would encourage you to drop either a Sorc in order to bulk up the Corsairs and Black Guard, or drop the dragon entirely, consolidate the two Level 2s into a Supreme Sorc, and use the extra points from your Dragon to invest in another mainstay combat unit (like a unit of Cold One Knights, Witch Elves, or something similar.)

Nellamik · Post by **Nellamik** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:32 pm

Interesting report, and definitely many thanks for discussing the setbacks as well as the wins. Losses are almost always more informative and useful to learn from for all concerned, so this is a very useful battle report. Your own thoughts on the battle seem very insightful.

Thanks Tethlis I was thinking that the title of this post should be "Turning a loss into a win". With the comments I have gotten back thats what it seems like.

It's funny that you replied here as I was just looking at your recent report on WcC earlier today which I found quite interesting.

By the way did you see this guys list (4 units) Huge blocks.

A few observations of mine, for what they're worth:
-You have a lot of points invested in characters, and I mean a lot.

Yes and as I eluded to the Dragon may not be suited for 2500 points. I will miss him too as he is my favorite model.

And the rest of your points are well taken. I have been working on a list that actually has a lot of the points you covered, looks like this....

Nellamik's 9th Legion

Supreme Sorceress Pendant of Khaeleth Sacrifical Dagger
Lore of Metal or Death
Malus Darkblade
Death Hag cauldren of blood BSB
L2 Sorceress, Seal of Ghrond, Tome of Furion, Lore of Shadow

30 Warriors spears Light armour shields FC
20 repeate Xbows light armour standard & musician
19 Corsairs 2HW Light armour Sea Dragon Cloak FC & Sea Serpant Banner
5 Harpies

5 Shades
20 Black guard FC, Banner of murder Whip of agony
10 Cold one knights Standard of Slaughter

I know Malus!!??
But he removes stupid from the CoK's

Anyways thanks again for the comments.
I can't loose here

Tethlis · Post by **Tethlis** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:10 am

Fun stuff. I myself don't use Special Characters in my local gaming setting, but Malus is a fine choice. You ought to consider the Banner of Hag Graef for your Cold Ones... Not only is ASF useful, but the re-rolls to hit in subsequent rounds of combat is brilliant for grinding through Steadfast enemies. I definitely encourage it, and it will be great for Malus also.

No Hydra? You might consider dropping the Level 2 to get one. I like Shadows on a Supreme Sorc, because so many of the spells in that lore are useful, and either taking no support caster or else a cheap one with Lore of Metal for the default spell (great for troubleshooting threats.)

Nellamik · Post by **Nellamik** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:32 am

I have the same list with only 5 CoK's and 15 corsairs that includes the Hydra.

I would consider though dropping the L2 for the hydra instead.
I just like the versatility of having two Lores'

Again I want to address his list. Three huge blocks and a hellcannon.
You have to come to take him on somewhere in order to get points.
Any one of the 3 are murder, Just what a WoC player wants.

Ichiyo1821 · Post by **Ichiyo1821** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:45 am

Stay away from Malus in this edition ...Really for the points he pales to the common Dreadlord setup with CO, full mundane, POK , CD, DH build..and on top of that he removes ITP from the COK ..not really good imo...SOHG is better for the COK and your Shades could use AHW... Id'd actually suggest using Metal for your list ...

Burizan · Post by **Burizan** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:14 pm

I would ditch either malus, some bg or some COK and load up on hydras. Otherwise lovely list.

If you take lore of death and sac dagger you will have INSANE power dice floating around, and shadow combines with it very nicely, so I would ignore the naysayers.