2600 Dark Elves MSU vs Beastmen (Now with Manticore)

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Katon
Highborn
Posts: 638
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:04 pm

2600 Dark Elves MSU vs Beastmen (Now with Manticore)

Post by Katon »

This was a 2600 point match up practicing for a UK Tournament called Tempest: The comp pack can be found here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5isgh9zx60sr ... 20Comp.pdf
With the change in comp to Dark Elves it didn’t change my list much, I wanted to drop the Peg master from my pervious games as I don’t want to use the PoK anymore. In his place I added a Manticore. I love the model and concept, just never get to use one due to the cost. At a 100 discount I couldn’t say no. And I added x2 units of 10 RxB, I dislike RxBmen I always struggle to use them to their fullest as I prefer combat units.
I know the Beastmen would bring plenty of big Monsters as I had spoken to Wes the week before, I didn’t want to tailor my list so my changes to my 2400 were limited.

My list was:
Lords:

Supreme Sorceress = 270
Lvl 3
Tome of Furion, Black Dragon Egg

Heroes:

Master = 199
Manticore
Shield
Heavy Armour
Sea Dragon Cloak
Lance

Cauldron of Blood = 225
Army Battle Standard Bearer

Core:

20 Dark Elf Warriors = 155
Shield
Champion, Standard, Musician

20 Dark Elf Warriors= 155
Shields
Champion, Standard, Musician

5 Dark Riders = 110
Repeater Cross bows
Free Muso

5 Dark Riders = 110
Repeater Cross bows
Free Muso

10 RxB = 115
Shield
Muso

10 RxB = 115
Shield
Muso

10 Corsairs = 105
Swap Hand weapon for Handbow
Musician

5 Harpies = 55

5 Harpies = 55

Special:

5 Cold One Knights = 164
Musician, Banner, Gleamming Pennant

5 Cold One Knights = 159
Musician, Banner

15 Executioners = 190
FC for Free
Banner of Eternal Flame

15 Executioners = 180
FC for Free

6 Shades = 102
AHW

14 Witch Elves
Muso

2599 Points

The Beastmen army:

LORDS
1 x Great Bray-Shaman (Death) (General)
Fencer’s Blades, Talisman of Preservation (280pts)

1 x Doombull
Heavy Armour, Shield, Gnarled Hide, Ramhorn Helm, Dawnstone, Biting Blade (318pts)
Ramhorn Helm means that each time he makes a successful armour save in combat he immediately makes a close combat attack back (pretty awesome versus low strength enemies), The doombull gained primal fury because of the comp, slaughteres call did not negate the effects of primal fury as stated in the rule book (gives frenzy but normally you cant have primal fury as well)

HEROES

1 x Wargor
Battle Standard Bearer, Heavy Armour, Charmed Shield, Chalice of Dark Rain (159pts)
The Chalice of dark rain is used at the start of an enemy shooting phase and causes a -1 to hit modifier on all enemy shooting and warmachines can only fire on a 4+.

1 x Slugtongue (Death)
(190pts)
Sluggy had regeneration, poisoned attacks and at the start of the game before the first turn all enemy units within 36inches of him take a curse of the famine-fiend test (1-3 nothing happens, 4-5 take D3 wounds, 6 take D6 wounds with no armour saves allowed)

CORE

7 x Minotaurs
Bloodkine, Musician, Standard Bearer, Additional Hand Weapons, Stone of Spite (438pts)
Stone of spite is a one use bound item power level 5. when used all arcane items (friend and foe) explode in the hands of the bearer and have no effect on the game from that point. The bearer also takes D6 strength 4 hits. Minotaurs gained primal fury from the comp and a free command, they were also core because of the comp.

5 x Centigors
Gorehoof, Musician (125pts)
Centigors were made core, free command and fast cav under the comp.

1 x Tuskgor Chariot
(80pts)

1 x Tuskgor Chariot
(80pts)

5 x Ungor Raiders
Halfhorn, Musician (30pts)
Raiders were given a free command from the comp.

SPECIAL
38 x Bestigor Herd
Gouge-Horn, Standard Bearer, Standard of Discipline (495pts)

5 x Harpies
(55pts)
These gained primal fury from the comp.

RARE
1 x Ghorgon
(175pts)
100 pts cheaper and was given primal fury, he has frenzy and each time he wins a combat he gains a bonus attack (same as doombull and minotaurs). He can trade in his 6 normal attacks for killing blow on a 4+. if he does this he regains D3 wounds lost in the battle but can never go past is starting wounds of 6.

1 x Cygor
(175pts)
The Cygor was made 100pts cheaper in the comp and gained primal fury. He is a stone thrower who can move and fire but not march and fire. He also has a rule called 'Soul-Eater' where he unsettles enemy wizards as they know the cygor craves to eat thier souls. All enemy wizards within 24inches must tale a leadership test at the start of the magic phase, if passes the wizard finds his bravery and is used as normal but f failed he loses his nerve and if he fails to cast any spells he must roll on the miscast table immediately each time.

TOTAL: 2600pts

Primal fury is a leadership check if passed the unit gains hatred, if passed on a double 1 they gain hatred and frenzy for a round of combat.

Wes emailed me his tactics for his army so I’ll post them up as well:

I knew from the start of the game that I wanted my Minotaurs and Bestigors near the middle of the board so that I could get a better range for Slugtongues ability and my stone of spite. I also knew that most of my small chaff would need to be near my BSB and general because if away from them and shot by your Elves then the chances were that they would panic and be out of the game, the chaff's job was to just try and stop 1 or 2 of your units from getting into combat on an important turn (such as the harpies stopping the witch elves at a key point of the game). I knew my ghorgon would be ok on his own againest smaller units and wanted him into combat as fast as possible before he was shot off the board (as usual). the chariot and centigors jobs were to stop your shades scouting behind me and to give your dark riders something to consider on the flanks.


Deployment
Image

Beastmen set up with their big Block of Bestigor in the centre, one flank protected by the forest and the other by a chariot and large Mino unit complete with Doom Bull. BSB, Gerneral and Slugtounge all hid themselves in the Bestigor unit.
The other Chariot and Gorgon both deployed on the left and spaced out enough to ensure my Shades had no way to deploy behind their lines.
Raiders deployed infron of the Bestigors while Harpies hid behind along with the Cygor. The Centigor took up the Right flank, again blocking away way for my Shades to get behind.

The Dark Elves took a strong centre as well with Spears and Executioners sticking together, Knights flanked the units of infantry ready to move where required. Harpies all stayed out of LOS for deployment and Dark Riders both took a flak each. The Sorceress jumps into the left Spear unit and the CoB goes down in the centre, trying to give as much of the army as possible the BSB bubble. RXB both deployed in the ruins as all terrain was dangerous and I wasn’t going to be marching with them if I could help it. Manticore went on their side in a hope that all the RXB shooting would keep monsters away from the Manticore. Corsairs deployed on the left looking to dart across the board and take the house. The Shades deployed next to the house ready to jump in and hopefully out the other side as a quick route to the Beasts deployment zone.

My left Riders vanguard to support the Shades and the Centigors pull back to avoid my other riders and RxB’s I pull mine back as well as im unsure if I should press this flank yet.
Centigor roll on their drunken table and get Stubborn.
Before the game started Slugtounge used his Fammin special rule.
The right most RxBmen lose a Elf to Fammin along with the Right Spears. The Sorceress unit loses 3 of their number along with 2 from the left Knight unit as well.

The generated spell were:
Slugtounge: Fate of Bjuna, Spirit Leech
Lvl 3 Beast Lord: Caress of Laniph, Soul Blight, Doom and Darkness
Dark Elf Sorceress lvl 3: Enchanted Blades of Aiban, Glittering Robes, Ghenna’s Golden Hounds, Final Transmutation.

Beastmen Turn 1
Image

Centigor moves back further behind the Beastmen lines, while the minos move forward supported by the Chariot. Harpies and Raiders move forward and stop to offer the Bestigors cover from any shooting. The Bestigors move in turn to hide behind the lesser beasts of their army. The left most chariot moves forward and the Gorgon moves back to join the main battle line. The Cygor lurks behind the main army no doubt looking for this biggest bolder it can find to supplement is shooting attack.

The Mino champion takes advantage of the low winds of magic and uses all 6 dice on his Stone of Spite, the Dark Elf Sorceress can’t stop the power of the Irresistible force and in an explosion of magical energy her Tome bursts into flames destroying it’s self and wounding the Sorceress. Nothing but a pile of ash remains from the ancient tome and with it her knowledge of Glittering Robes is lost.

In shooting the raiders shoot at the left RxB unit, all shots miss from their crude bows. On the left side of the battle field the Dark Elf witness the strength of the mighty Cygor as he tosses a boulder big enough to level a unit. Witches hold firm as the boulder smashes just behind them causing no damage to the unit.

Dark Elf Turn 1
Image

The Shades jump into the Building and the Corsairs march up for a next turn switch of places. The Dark Riders on the left move up to block the Gorgon and try and knock a few wounds off. The left harpies fly up behind them ready to move where needed. The right unit flies to block the minos and redirect them to the main battle line. Witches move up to ready to charge the minos if they take the bait and the left Knights make their way slowly to support where needed.
The Sorceress’s Spears unit jumps in the building and the left Executioners move up to the side of the building while the right units move inline as well, right most Knights sit back and wait, RxB sit firm in the Ruins and the Dark Riders move from behind the lines back around the ruins with the Manticore flying behind.

Magic sees the Sorceress cast Final Transmutation 4 of her dice. She manages the IF with 3 6s and Calamitously Detonates killing 5 Spearmen but luckily she survives taking no wounds.
The resulting spell manages to turn the Doombull to solid gold along with 1 mino.
With her last dice she casts Enchanted Blades on the Witches and the Cauldron further buffs them with more blood lust in the form of +1 attack.
The right most RxB along with the Dark Riders all fire only managing to kill 3 of the Raiders, their lose formation and primal instincts helping them dodge the Elven bolts. Still, with 3 of their number gone they panic and take cover behind the main battle line.
Left Dark Riders manage a wound on the Gorgon.

Beastmen Turn 2
Image

The Gorgon charges the building with the Shades who Stand and Shoot and knock a wound off.
The minos take the bait and hit the Harpies. Destroying them on the charge and over running. The run not taking them far enough to contact the witches and leaving the majority of the psychotic elves to face their flank.
The chariot charges the Spear who hold.
The raiders rally from their panic.

The harpies fly from in front of the Bestigor and land behind. Leaving the Bestigor to move forward. (I forgot to move them on the picture.)
Centigor continue to move from the east side of the board to the west.
The left most chariot continues around the building in search of a target to charge.

In the magic phase Doom and Darkness is cast on the Spearman unit with the Sorceress followed by Spirit Leech on the Sorceress. (We later discussed we played the Doom and Darkness + Spirit Leech rule wrong and I shouldn’t have taken a wound. But live and learn.)
In shooting the Cygor takes another boulder and throws towards the left side of the board again, his aim much better this time as the Rock leaves 2 Executioners dead.

In combat the Shades fail their fear check and only manage one wound on the beast. Trading in his 6 normal attacks for killing blow on a 4+. He looks to regain D3 already lost. He manages a killing blow and a Shade and gets 3 wounds back. I can’t remember how but he managed 1 more kill on the unit and they flee from combat. Jumping from the building the Shades end up with their flee roll stopping right in front of the chariot.
The chariot manages 3 wounds on the Spears who do 2 wounds in return. The Beastmen chariot stays locked in combat though.

Dark Elves Turn 2
Image

The right executioner unit charge into the flank of the Chariot to relieve the Spears.
Dark Riders charge the Centigor who hold for the impact.
Harpies charge the Cygor, knowing they can’t beat it. In doing so they leave the way open for the knights to charge the Gorgon.
As soon as the Harpies move the Knights charge into action and smash into the Gorgon.
Witch Elves give into to their Frenzy and charge into the side of the minos who hold.

The Shades rally and stay where they are.
Corsairs move towards the Gorgon to support the Knights should they need it.
The Dark Riders and Manticore on the right continue their move around ready to flank the Bestigor unit.
Right ColdOnes move into a better charge position with a slight shuffle .
Executioner move behind the Witches should the brides of Khaine break from combat.
The Cauldron positions it’s self to benefit as much of the army as possible.

Magic sees Power of Darkness dispelled. Left with a choice to dispel Doom and Darkness or go for a Final Transmutation on the Bestigor. Reckless Dark Elf Mage goes for the destructive option and casts on the Bestigor. Rolling a 14, leaving not enough power. This opens up the Cygors passive power ‘Soul-Eater’. The Sorceress takes her leadership test but Doom and Darkness is her undoing and fails her Ld 6 check and receives a miscast for her troubles. The Magical Feedback wounding her leaving her dead.
A smile on the Hags face at witnessing another disciple of Ghrond die to meddling with the dark arts.

In combat the Witches do 11 wounds only losing 3 Witches in return. The minos knowing they are out matches flee. The Brides of Khaine to caught up in the blood shed aren’t fast enough to pursue and fall half an inch behind the minos.
In the Fight of fast cavalry the Dark Riders do 2 wounds but take 3 in return. Centigors in their drunkenness hold stubbornly.
The Knights do 2 wounds to the Gorgon but again the Gorgon makes another killing blow and heals himself up. The last knight shocked at un-phased monster pulls his mount away and takes flight, only to be run down.
The Chariot manages to kill a spearman and a Executioner. Spearmens spears doing no damage to the chariot. Leaving only the Executioners to dismember the chariot into fire wood.
Both units reform to face the oncoming Bestigors. Executions wheel taking them slightly in front ready to bear the brunt of the charge.

Harpies fail their fear check and are all killed. Their job accomplished though for no greater good.

Beastmen Turn 3
Image

The Gorgon charges the Corsairs who Stand and Shoot, causing 2 wounds.
The Cygor charges into the Dark Riders flank.
The Bestigor charge and hit the Executioners who hold.
The Chariot charges the Shades who chose to hold. A stand and shoot not possible and to flee would achieve very little.
Beastmen harpies fly over and block the Witch Elves from any possible charge on the minos.
Raiders stay put.

In magic the Beastmen cast Fate of Bjuna on the CoB who takes no wounds.
Soul Blight is cast and with the Irresistible Force Dark Elves can’t hope to dispel. All Elven units within 24” are -1 S and -1T. the miscast results in a Magical Feedback, not harming the lvl4 but taking a wound off Slugtounge.
The Raiders take a shot and kill a Witch.

Corsair fail their fear check and lose 8 in the resulting combat. They do 0 wounds and run and luckily get away. Their flight I short lived as the Chariots impact kill the Shades to the elf and the overrun hits the remaining Corsairs.
Dark Riders manage no wounds and are crushed beneath the Cygors stomps.
In the Bestigor fight the Executioner Challenges the BSB. Before the brave Elf can swing his mighty weapon he his cut down by the BSB. The Executioners manage to kill 3 Bestigor and proceed to be hacked up leaving only 3 remaining.
Not willing to give ground the Executioners hold. Knowing the rest of the army is ready to pounce.

Dark Elf Turn 3
Image

With the Roar of the Manticore the Dark Elf army animates as one.
Witches charge the Harpies, who hold.
Dark Riders charge the mino to make him flee closer to the Witches. He manages a few inches.
Around the Bestigor unit all the Elves move for the kill.
Executioners hit the flank to join their brethren, and Spear run into the front to add additional support. Knights also join in the charge meeting the Bestigor head on.
And finally the Manticore gets to taste blood as it smashes into the Bestigors flank.
The Sorceress’s Bodyguard unit jumps out the building, not needing to defend her anymore.

The Cauldron aids the combat by blessing the Spears with the knowledge of the God of Murder and his knowledge of the Killing Blow.

Witches dispatch the Harpies with no problem and look to over run into the Mino, falling half an inch short again.

In the Bestigor combat the Primal Fury of the unit takes over, rolling double ones the unit becomes Frenzied and gains Hatred towards the Elves. A bloody fight is now due.

The Spears with their killing blow direct all their attack on the Lord Caster. 7 Spears thrust at him, but only 2 sink deep into his flesh. Both enough to kill a mortal outright, as the spears retract and the Elves watch the Beeast fall down some dark magic takes over and both wounds are ignored. (The leader managed to pass both 4+ wards, leaving him unharmed.)
3 Knight use their superior mounted skill and strike at the wounded Slugtounge. All 3 lances hit, 2 enough to wound the beast. Retracting their lances both wounds seem to regenerate new flesh leaving the mage unharmed.
The remaining members of the massed combat strike back. All of them only managing 12 wounds between them.

Striking back the Bestigors slay all the Spears to the Elf. The 3 Executioners tired from the last turns battle fall to heavy weapons along with 2 more from the side. 3 Knight fall for their attack on Slugtounge taking 3 wounds and needing anything but 1s to save I roll 3 1s. And to top it off the Manticore takes 4 wounds and falls to the ground. Leaving the Master to fight on foot.
Thus concludes the worst combat of the Warhammer career.
Dark Elves 18 CR, Beastmen 28 CR double 1s all over please.
The 2 Knights flee.
Master flees.
Only brave Executioners hold, stubbornly knowing they must play for their kins kind.

Beastmen Turn 4
Image

Cygor charges the Spears in front of the building who hold.
Centigor charge the side of the Witch unit.
The Gorgon moves closer to the battle line along with the chariot.

In magic Doom and Darkness is cast on the Witches with Irresistible Force. The resulting Magical Feedback not harming any of the Beastmen mages. All other spells are stopped.

The Cygor in combat kills 5 Spears and receive 3 in return. Brave Spears hold. Knowing to kill anything in at this point is a merit to their cause.
The Witches don’t fare as well, lose 4 of their number and only killing 1. They flee and are run down.
Vs the Bestigor brave Executioner champion steps forward and challenges. None answer his call and the unit goes on to kill 6, and are in turn killed to the Elf. Victorious Beasts reform to face the last of the Elven threat.

Dark Elf Turn 4
Image

Dark Riders search desperately to claw some victory points back, charging the Centigor he flees. The unit then fails their re-direct on to the minos.

Both RxB units form to face the Bestigors. And CoB moves from LOS of the Bestigor.
Both the Master and Knights rally.

All the RxB shooting manages to kill 2 Bestigor.

In the Cygor fight the Spears to enough to leave the Cygor on 1 wound as they are stomped to death. 8 die and the rest flee to be run down by the Cygor.

Beastmen Turn 5
Image

The Cygor hides behind the building. The Gorgon moves closer still, linning up to charge the Caldron

The Beastigor charge the Master who holds.

In Magic Doom and Darkness is cast on the Master, but dispelled.
Soul Blight is cast on the Master and the Elves cant muster enough power to Dispell.
Showing off his powers the Shaman casts Caress of Laniph on the RxB unit, taking the soul of a Crossbow Elf.

In shooting the Badly wounded Cygor still has the strength the hurl a Rock, it throw is good and 4 RXB Elves and killed from the projectile. Their Elven resolve hold true and they pass panic.

The Bestigor combat is brief, no challenges are met and the Master causes no wounds and is cut down, the overrun takes the Bestigors into a RXB unit. In a twist of fate the overrun causes some of the Besigors to take Dangerous Terrain. Slugtounge suffering from a battle long wound is the only one to fall and die.

Dark Elf Turn 5
Image

Dark Riders still hunting for kills charge the Raiders who also flee, and the Fast Cavalry fall short, no doubt tired and winded from all the charges.
The Knights enrages at the death of the Master and his beast from the previous combat charge in. the remaining cross bow also join in. Not willing to be remembered as cowards.

The Death Hag atop her cauldron favours such bravery from the RXB charge and blesses them with the power of Killing Blow.

The resulting combat sees tired Elves achieve very little as Knight kill 1 Besigor and are wiped out. Along with the RxB directing their killing blows vs any hero they could see manage 0 wounds and between both units lose 9.

Double 1s all around and none to be had both RxB are wipped out.

Beastmen Turn 6
Image

The Gorgon charges the Cauldron
The rest of the army moves around, Bestigor staying put not wanting to take any Dangerous Terrain tests and happy they have this battle won.
Doom and Darkness is cast on the Cauldron, such magic has no affect as the spell is stopped.

With the Gorgon in close combat the Hags show why they are so feared, delivering 6 poison blows. Enough poison to kill any beast, the gorgon no exception as it falls to the ground.

Dark Elf Turn 6
Image

The Dark Riders too tired to chase any more fire their RXB’s to kill a Centigor, the remaining Centigor passes his panic and the game is done.

The end result was 2434-1092, a massive 1342 win for the Beastmen.

This game was a struggle, Wes is a decent player and goes to many tournaments. His list contained so many tricks that I couldn’t prepare for them all. This coupled with it being my first matchup against Beastmen. I was always told they are a lower tier army but this just shows with a decent general behind them, they are still due their respect.
I know early on in the game when I took the Doombull out and was applying lots of pressure things looked bleak for the Beastmen. Fortunately Wes continued to play on, and in Turn 3 with all the charges it looked to be the end. A massive shift in luck saw my battle plan shattered and from that point I couldn’t see a way to recover.

I know Wes wanted me to post up some of his thoughts, I also invite him to come post for himself:
I was hoping that slugtongue would take down or seriously weaken 2 or 3 of your units before the game but didn't have much luck with him, but after successfully getting the stone of spite off on your wizard I was really wanting to try and take him out with death snipes (in the end the cygor plus doom and darkness did it, ironically your own idea, I hadnt thought of doing that before our chat).

I felt after the first 2 turns that things were looking pretty bad for me with losing my minotaurs, doombull and chariot (messed up my overrun) and at the point of the game where I charged the Bestigor into your executioners I felt as though I had no choice but to do so and hope I could smash through them and overrun through out of danger or at least reform. I six diced the soulblight on the big version because I knew if things went wrong that the spell might keep me in with a chance. Obviously my general, bsb and frenzy got really lucky which through the whole combat my way. After that fight it was really a matter of mopping up and trying to look after my characters points.



All in all a good game and another experience for me, ive identified a few weaknesses in my army I am going to change and just try a few things. To this day I can’t make RxB, I can’t deny how good they are, but offer me a combat unit or a shooty one im going for the combat.

Hope you all enjoyed, the Battle Chronicler Pictures I hope are a bit clearer I know with the Bestigor I forgot to change their size to reflect casualties. That’s why they dramatically shrink at the end of the game. So as you can see I am still making some mistakes. A few more reports and I should be a pro at it. Im looking at getting a quality camera to get some pictures of the table top too to help with clarity. As it stands my phone takes very grainy pictures. Hopefully more to come so watch out for more reports.
User avatar
Wesley
Slave on the Altar
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:18 am

Re: 2600 Dark Elves MSU vs Beastmen (Now with Manticore)

Post by Wesley »

Hello to all you Dark Elf players, I just wanted to say a big well done to Andy for making this battle report, I think you have done a great job with it buddy. It was a really tough game especially at the beginning for me, there were so many units I didn't know where to start and was wanting to get my doombull straight into combat with the witch elves as I felt confident that he could take them out in 1 or 2 rounds of combat. Getting him turned into a lump of gold put pay to that idea and from that point onwards I knew I was struggling. The obvious turning point of the game was the main combat where it was one of them (we've all had them) where I got great luck and my opponent got no luck at all. Even luck aside I feel the boosted soulblight was important making some of those attacks strength 2 and needing 6's to wound me. Even the fearsome executioners were from 2's to 3's to wound. I think that combat should have been very close indeed without the luck swing and some extra frenzy attacks for me, it probably would have favoured Andy's Dark Elves though. The other aspect that I feel bad about is playing the spirit leech wrongly which contributed towards the Sorceress's downfall by taking a wound of her turn 2 (I think). My Monsters aren't usually as good as they were in the game but with both gaining primal fury and both being 100 points cheaper I had to give them a go (I usually play with more big blocks of infantry). I don't think Andy really made any mistakes during the game, I feel as though I made a big mistake with my Minotaurs however. I charged the chariot and minotaurs because I thought I could position the mino's to get a possible overrun past the witchelves and into the chariots combat. Once declared though and moved I immediately realised that it wasn't going to be possible and I had made a mistake.

Thanks so much for the game Andy and I owe you a rematch for sure, great battle report matey so keep it up.

Wes.
Katon
Highborn
Posts: 638
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: 2600 Dark Elves MSU vs Beastmen (Now with Manticore)

Post by Katon »

I agree I can’t see any massive mistakes I made. Maybe the Sorceress could have stayed behind the building with 2 augment buffs I could have still buffed the army even when out of LOS. And Gold Hounds wasn’t a very good spell vs your army but the only other option was Searing Doom.

My weakness was definitely my RxBmen, I had no idea what to do with them, normally the points there would have been more Witches or even a Unit of Black Guard. The comp stopped my normal list thinking. 1000pts max special is hard for Elves.

Like you said I even knew about the Cygor + Doom and Darkness combo as it was my idea. I chose not to build a hard counter list though. X2 Bolt Throwers were tempting along with Rending Star + Manbane Assassins but not a very gentalmanly build.

I keep looking at the massed combat and perhaps when I charged on turn 3 I could have waited till turn 4. Yes you would have been able to wipe out the remaining Executioner unit but no matter how you reformed you would have been open to flank and rear charges.

I think the Spearmen gave too much combat res away and that cost me. It might have been a better idea to feed units into the combat as to keep topping the Active combat res up with additional charges each turn. In the end the rolls were terrible anyway and if we did the combat again it could swing in my favour.

I could have fed you units from Turn 3 onwards but I saw the big block as a challenge to break, ive not managed to break an extremely large block yet.

I managed to break a 52 Warriors unit down at a Tournament but it was isolated due to bad deployment and in that game the large Temple Guard unit with Slann held over 1400 points of the army. I still want to break these big units down. Though perhaps avoidance is the best way. I’ll stick with perseverance and look forward to the new Lizard book when I find an opponent.

Anyway, pick the time and place and well have a rematch. Im on a roll now after a win vs High Elves on Wednesday.
Swordmaster of Hoeth
Executioner
Posts: 173
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:49 am

Re: 2600 Dark Elves MSU vs Beastmen (Now with Manticore)

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Katon,

Thanks a lot for another report. I know there is a 3rd already posted but I wanted to see if I can make some useful comments to this one too!

The Beastie Boyz sported their infamous MinoBus and Bestigor Horde. The rest of the regiments are to perform support role for these to steamrollers. Beasts are quite dangerous opponent even without the comp you have described. With some additions here and there as well as lower point cost for monsters (totally justified in comparison to how chimeras are priced now) means you had even more dangerous army to play against.

My limited experience tells me that it is good idea to try and eliminate everything else while avoiding combat with 2 big blocks. Usual feeding small units to minobus is not such a great idea as they gain insane amount of attacks in no time and the fact they can overrun only 1d6" does not pull them out of the battle line either. Beastmen horde seems to be a little bit more manageable. It is not easy to break as it hits back hard with high S attacks and primal fury. But that is a classic example of a regiment that needs to be attacked from both flanks if possible.

Beasts do suffer from shooting though, even with their skirmishers screens and voodoo magic :) And every wound counts. The trouble might be to pick the target as there are so many of them around. Another thing which might be worthy trying is to block big blocks when they use their living shields. Simply park dark riders in front and let them charge you. If fliers decided to charge something behind and open the path for bestigors you can always flee. Slowing beastmen down is quite important.

Ok, it seems I made my introduction way too long, let's move to the battle then :)

Deployment

Deployment of the Beastmen army is no surprise. Even with quite large amount of units they need to be close together to minimize the impact of relatively low leadership. The fact that they are positioned in the center is also expected as that allows them to move to either flank or storm through the center at a proper speed. But that opens their flanks and it should be used to your advantage.

I don't quite understand why you pulled back your DR on the right flank. They could easily avoid Centigors if they decided to move towards them. With their crossbows they would be able to eliminate that unit on their own. At the same time, being close to the center would allow them to move in and divert bestigors thus presenting your enemy with difficult decision. To attack but be slowed down and possibly divided, as minobus would charge headlong or try to keep the formation but slow down entire army even more.

The same with Manticore. I know it is vulnerable but there were no shooting to threaten it and it can be awesome at chariot hunting too.

DE T1

Did Shades shoot? If yes what was the target?

Also, was it possible for crossbows to shoot at the chariot in the middle? If yes I would chose to shoot at it instead of the skirmishers. The reason being that skirmishers are harder to hit and that your opponent expects you to shoot at them. But if you don't he is trouble as he does not have open path to charge with his infantry. While chariot, despite being tougher and better armored, is much more dangerous to your small units. You can handle charging skirmishers but chariot often is going to inflict damage when allowed to attack.

Beasts T3

I think cavalry cannot be stomped so Cygor could not inflict damage on DR this way. Would it save the cavalry though?

DE T3

That was one disastrous combat. You did great in making all combined charges. I there there are a few things to consider for future games regardless of the outcome for this one. It was obvious your opponent was very lucky in getting double 1 when he needed it. However:

1. You could have charged only with executioners and Manticore and Dark Riders (or maybe even without them). The good thing is that you pin down the big block and minimize the attacks back. Charging from the front means that the unit that didn't suffer casualties fights in 3 ranks due to horde formation. While attacking from both flanks you get only a few attacks back. Even with frenzy.

It is not going to break the unit unless you are lucky but you hold them and then counter following turn. I would even consider pushing COK and Warriors to both flanks again. But this is one option.

2. More attacks from cauldron to executioners and directing everything at the unit unless you can target the BSB. I know it is tempting to kill the general. But horde formation is shallow. If you kill enough of the rank and file they will loose steadfast. What is more, you inflict many more wounds to combat result. Might not have been the case yet here but that is general principle. Beastmen characters in that unit do not have that many attacks and at high S either (unless I am mistaken it is not S6).

If you combined 1 and 2 there was a chance to break the enemy even if you lost some units in the process but despite that lucky double 1.

This is of course just an observation after reading the report. I often charge all in myself, just because I can :) But I do know that sometimes jab-cross is better than a powerful jab that might miss the target slightly and throw you out of balance :)

It was a pity Dark Riders could not get that Mino. I wonder if it was possible simply to shoot it down? Just close in, shoot and charge later when the distance is so close that even double 6 cannot save it. You can achieve it by parking 1" behind it.

You tried hard to get points back and I think it was desperate to do so with the last combat. You needed to kill all the characters to make it worthy, as you sacrificed 3 units and were already losing so gain had to be significant. It is hard not to do so as it seems nothing is left to lose. But in the end it was around 400 points down the sink. At a tournament that means 1-2 battle points in your favor and often that might be a huge difference in the overall standing :) I do remember you like o risk though so this is just another comment to add to the discussion. This game often offers so many options to choose from that I don't want to even thing in right-wrong categories.

Well done to both of you as the report was very interesting to read and I hope we will have an even more interesting rematch soon!

Cheers!
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Katon
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Re: 2600 Dark Elves MSU vs Beastmen (Now with Manticore)

Post by Katon »

With my Deployment I pulled back simply because I was unaware of what the centigor could do, I had never played Beastmen before and we were running closed lists so I just assumed they were equipped with a ranged attack. The same with the Manticore I have limited experience and every time I run one they are just free points, I wanted him out the way, almost forgotten so I could have that pivotal charge.

Thinking back on the game I didn’t even really apply any pressure onto the support units and I should have. In the end they were the things causing me more of a headache, with them down earlier it may have opened up more options for me so even when my game was going bad I could have regrouped. With his support still around a regroup was too difficult as he had ways to stop me.

I think with the main combat as you said it was a series of bad events for me, I think with the feeding of units into the fight it definitely would have been better, the Spearmen applied very little to the combat though they gave up 15 kills. Just by not applying them to the equation could have made a draw. I think I could have abused the Executioners Stubborn more and fed a unit in 1 flank and something in another. Would only have required 1 to survive and the unit in the other flank to have stayed and the Beastmen are in a situation then.

Many mistakes I think are just because im not a massive player nor am I very competent with the army style at the moment. It is enjoyable and is a more involved way of playing for me. Im happy ive dropped the Pendant Pegasus rider. I should get a lot less eye rolling when I deploy from now on.

Comments are always welcome. I play a Dwarf match up where things don’t go to plan but I play out a tactical draw in the end. While still maintain my risk reward style of play.
Dark Elves vs Dwarfs 2400:
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Dyvim tvar
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Re: 2600 Dark Elves MSU vs Beastmen (Now with Manticore)

Post by Dyvim tvar »

About the Centigors. Even when playing closed-list the convention I have always seen followed is that mundane equipment is disclosed.
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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Re: 2600 Dark Elves MSU vs Beastmen (Now with Manticore)

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Katon,

As Dyvim tvar said there is a convention of saying what mundane equipment is. What is more, usually special rules are also described for each unit. Closed lists simply mean that you don't know what are the magic items. Having said that it seems to be reasonable thing to be careful if one is not sure about capabilities of the enemy. Now you know better!

We all make mistakes. Sometimes even veteran players can make some silly ones. I will always highlight the fact that I try to discuss options rather than labeling any moves as mistakes. As sometimes they are but sometimes they are not. And the good thing is that with diagrams and knowledge of the reasons behind each decision you can built a much more solid foundations for future games.

It is now a good time to think about other options so that when the next battle happens you will have ideas to try ready rather than spending too much time trying to come up with a good plan. No two games are the same but simply talking about the outcome prepares you better for the next one.

Keep up the good work! :)
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