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Fixing the assassin 
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Malekith's Best Friend

Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:13 pm
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Many have stated repeatedly that the assassin is one of the coolist, most characterful models in the army, but isn't worth the points when compared to the 2+ Sv Nobel for less points.

On that note, what would it take to make the assassin more viable? I personally like the changes made in the ToK list for the F&B campaign here (comes with killing blow at only a 5pts increase), but these are unofficial. I also like the idea of expanding the ToK items list to give him more options that a noble wouldn't have access to. A ward save wouldn't hurt either.

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Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:51 am
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Death Jester
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The changes in the ToK list are good, but just a drop in the assassins points cost would be nice. Maybe somewhere between 90-100pts...

Sean

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Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:27 am
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just some drop in points would be very awesome. However in order to expand the ToK upgrades, more characters need to have access to it. right now just one character choice and a 2 other models total can have upgrades, and expansion would be better suited to the total list before that expansion is had. Either that or just give the noble and highborn access to the upgrades, taking out for their magic items allowance.

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Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:39 am
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Id say make a point decrease, and then force the assassin to spend X points at poisons and ToK upgrades. So that each assassin has to buy atleast one poison for instance. This is outside the magic item allowence.

I agree that more characters should have access to the ToK. Introducing honour / aspects to the Druchii list would solve this as any char with a witchelf aspect would gain access to those upgrades.


//Seto


Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:31 pm
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Highborn
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I believe we should keep the Temple of Khaine upgrades to the acolytes and priestesses of Khaine. The nobility, though it accepts Khaine to be the patron god of the Druchii, is not that involved to warrant giving it the opportunity to take those items. To me, it is similar to a mayor giving a mass. He'd attend one but shouldn't be leading it.

To fix the Assassin, a drop of points would be obvious but you could also increase their magic item allowance a little.

My problem with them is that they are quite literally a one-trick pony and just as expensive as a Highborn. Some manage to make them count, others prefer to rely on more 'trustworthy' characters. I'm not sure if changing point costs would actually get many people to use assassins.

Just my two cents

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Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:50 pm
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This may not be the most popular opinion, but I think that he should be increased in points slightly and they come with the 5+ dodge ward save and the basic poison.
Yes I would like to see them have a larger magic item limit, but all heros across the board (that I'm aware of) are limited to 50 points so that wouldn't change.

A nince change would be to be able to have a lesser assasain for less points as an alternative

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Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:17 pm
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I like Scion's idea. There should be a more powerful Lord level assasin like skaven, and a less powerful hero level one. What GW have got at the moment is one in between with lord level stats that dies easier than a hero.
Yes they should both come with a dodge ward save, 5+ for the lord and 6+ for the hero. They should also come with poisoned attacks.


Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:25 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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well my point is just that there need to be more characters with access to the ToK upgrades in order to expand them.

I think though, like everyone else, that in general just a points decrease would do wonders.

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Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:25 pm
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I think the Assassin should be able to take 50 pts of TOK upgrades, in addition to 50 pts in items. With the possibility of using magic item pts on TOK upgrades, but not use TOK upgrades on magic items.

I think it would make him better, but a huge pt sink, but at least he would be a character in our list that could take on most other characters.

Asperon Thorn

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Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:57 pm
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Cold One Knight
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In addition to reducing him by a few points another simple option would be to reduce to 25pts those items in the temple of khaine which currently cost 30pts
Currently if you want Dance of Doom or Touch of Death you can't take anything else with it other than dark venom :cry:


Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:31 pm
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I think he should come with killing blow to begin with...

He is a trained murderer and he knows how to kill!

Maybe a slight increase in pts cost. (because of the KB)

Or maybe no increase as he is a little overpriced at the moment. IMO...


Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:37 pm
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well something like what happened in the ToK list would be nice. I mean at 125 pts he starts off at the same point cost as a Highborn, so keep him at that price and give him killing blow.

However Asperon brings up some good points. That might very well work. Even then just a pt limit 75 for magic items/upgrades would be in order.

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do not question eldacar.


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Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:49 pm
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Killing blow would be perferable to poison as an innate ability. That and the dodge ward would help make him the character killer that "Assassin" implies. The fact that the guy can be so easily slain in a challenge is just sad.

I really like what was done with the Clan Eshin list (the hit and run tactics). That might help.

Another possiblity is to let him take advantage of his BS. I'm thinging a poisonable sniper crossbow with rules similar to the Hochland rifle.

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Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:10 pm
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Characters of all races should quake in fear that an Assassin could pop out of any unit and strike first - making the enemy think twice about charging. This is both in keeping with what seems to be the GW concept and the sneaky tactical nature of the Druchii. Simply put, the Assassin is a living trap.

But nobody I have ever played has any fear of the Assassin. Even when I flaunt the fact that I have one, there is never any hesitation on my opponent's part. Why is this?

The root of the problem, IMHO, is that the current Assassin is not capable of doing exactly what thery are supposed to be best at - namely ensuring a quick death to a single target. Whether or not the Assassin lives beyond that is utterly inconsequential. Khaine certainly doesn't care whether or not they die - only that they kill their target.

Upping the magic item limit is both inconsistent gamewise and defeats the purpose of being the one-shot-one-kill ace that they are supposed to be. Adding on extra equipment would extend combat survivability, but doesn't necessarily make them a more effective instakiller. Likewise with the ward save ideas. Assassins aren't supposed to get stuck into an extended fight.

Reducing the point cost is helpful, but will not address the root of the problem. Even at 90 points the Assassin is still little more than a glorified Shade who is incapable of dropping a moderately combat proficient target. I can't count the number of times that my Assassins have revealed themselves, only to wind up one wound short of a kill and have a lowly 80 point hero kick their ass.

So the question becomes how do we make the Assassin into a one shot wonder?

A few thoughts along that line:

- Killing Blow ONLY on the round that the Assassin reveals (KB with every hit is just too powerful for such a high WS).

- Re-roll failed wounds on the round that the Assassin reveals.

- No armor saves on the round that the Assassin reveals. (an Assassin should know where the holes are.)

- A new item in the Temple list - Marked By Khaine (or something of the ilk)
Assassins only. At the beginning of the game, the Assassin selects an enemy character. Any successful wounds that the Assassin does to that character after armor and ward saves are doubled. This is based on a Lizardman magic item that has the same effect.

- Or on a similar note, choose a character against whom the Assassin gains Killing Blow.

My two cents worth.

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Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:10 pm
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I think the no armor saves in the round of combat revealed or re-roll wounds would both fit really well with the idea of the assassin.

Or maybe on the turn that he is revealed he has killing blow that goes off on 5+ instead of just 6s.

Given that they can only be revealed once, and killing specific models is all about what assassination is, it would fit and not be too powerful.


Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:53 pm
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He has to become cheaper 1!
He should have acces to maybee 100 pts of equipment!
He should make poisoned attakc (always!)
One wound deals D3 wounds...something like that!

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Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:55 pm
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I actually think that the assassin is absoloutly fine the way he is. His high points cost fits in with the stats and fluff.

If I had to change the assassin, I'd make him 5 points dearer and give him poisoned weapons as standard.

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Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:01 pm
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5th ed rules for the Assassin were just about right.

He could take heavy and/or light armor. Halberd, or GW (not likely) did D3 wounds (I think) And could take more magic items. Not to mention was A4,S4,T4 IIRC.

I would reduce his cost by 30 pts, allow light armor and/or SDC and increase his magic item/ToK allowance by 25 pts.

They would see a lot more play then.

Fr0

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Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:13 pm
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To be honest, all this talk of reducing the assassins points in one hand yet raising his options in the other is a bit strange, you pay for what you get.

Also, remember an assassin has to be sneaky, so no armour, halber or GW, as they are NOT sly.

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Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:15 pm
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Fr0; armour? That's not very assassin like. Might as well take a Noble since in that case the whole feeling's gone then. Also, a halberd and/or great weapon isn't hidden very easily. The Sea Dragon Cloak is a symbol of Corsair status, not assassin...


Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:20 pm
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i agree with vengence...for a small points increase the assassin needs to have either killing blow(fluffy being he is an assassin after all) or poisoned attacks(fluffy on the basis it is part of their training). Either on would work.

the assassin the group's ToK list works well enough and should be used as a standard to correcting the assassin, not the 5th edition assassin.

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Lord Yeurl to his captain before a battle in the Old World.

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Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:16 pm
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I would support them getting killing blow after all skaven assassins have it don't they? :?
then they should have to choose one poison from the temple of khaine.

the maximum cost of ToK items should be 25pts because that way we'll see more interesting combos

at present the only real option is manbane + rune of khaine or dark venom + touch of death and 10 points which can get nothing :roll:


Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:02 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend

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I personally would go against poison attacks, as that would make KB less effective, or re-rolling wounds (an effective already provided in Khaine armies by the CoB). I like the idea of marking an enemy character.

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When old hags do knock at your door, you must hide,
Your death is the gift sought by Khaine's pretty brides.


Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:12 pm
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No, I should clarify. My post was a bit hurried and sloppy.

I miss the old rules, which is apparent. I think the Assassin should have his points cost reduced a bit, and as for the armour the option to at least have light armour/SDC should be there. Think, light armour.. this could be a simple leather garb under his robe/disguise. As for the SDC indicating he would be a Corsair, on the topic of disguise, IIRC Corsairs have SDC and you can hide the Assassin in their units.. :?

Yes, having a halberd and GW is clearly out of the question. Some light assed protection is not out of the question.

At the very least, increasing their item point limit by 25 would justify costing 120+ pts before upgrades!!

Fr0

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Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:47 pm
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assassin fixes: assassin rule that affords an extra 100 vic. points if he kills a charactor. that makes him worth it. 5/6 killing blow on the reveal turn, and is at -1 to hit in challenges. up points by 25.

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Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:11 am
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