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Dark Elf Army According to Me 
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Master of the Red Legion
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So, I've been toying around with a full DE list for a while now as to what I'd like to see when the thing comes out in what is rumoured to be about a year (I'd be a bit longer myself mind you as I think HE and VC have to come out first for WFB and there are 2 40K books and a couple supplemental books coming out first). Still, I thought I'd share it with everyone anyways.

The preface things though, I took a very systematic and formulaic approach to thing so in my mind anyways, there's justification for everything I'd done. ;) Also, I really haven't changed much from the current book (as I don't see major changes as realistic or even merited) but rather made a few small adjustments here and there, some tweaks, fixed some pet peeves, and above all tried to include more overall flavour to the list as a whole which is what I think is really lacking with DE (we created a whole pile of it here to make up for that deficiency). So, before you jump on things you might consider outlandish, please also read the comments at the end of it all as well as the formulae I used to obtain the points cost per model for many units. Keep in mind, once again, that this is far from complete and really, only changes are listed (and even then, not all of them) and for obviously reasons most stat lines are removed. I've also taken the time to combine all the magic items from the various extra sources we have and none of them appear here.

Also keep in mind that this is totally unformatted and doesn't really include everything (pretty much only the changes), so if you want the much easier to read version of things and the much more complete version, please PM me and I'll send it to you via email (so give me an email address too).

Dark Elf Army List Concept

Universal Special Rules:

All Dark Elves hate High Elves.


Characters (Lords):

0-1 Dark Elf Lord 125 Points
• May be promoted to Higher Lordship

Higher Lordship


High Lord: High Lords are those few whole have shown promise enough to be given the opportunity to lead the Witch King’s greatest hosts.

The inclusion of a High Lord in your army means the 0-1 restriction on Dark Elf Lords is lifted and you can now have as many in your army as the game size permits. These extra lords may not be upgraded to Higher Lordship and the High Lord will always be the army general. In addition, the command range of the general is increased to 18” from 12”. The High Lord is worth an additional 100 Victory Points if he is killed, fleeing, or fled off the table at the end of the game.


Beast Lord: The Lords of Karond Kar are known for their ability to tame the great beasts of the world.

A Beast Lord must be given a mount from the options list. In addition, Beast Packs now count towards the minimum core unit restrictions and 2 Cold One Chariots can be taken for one Special slot. Also, no Corsairs or Executioners may be taken in the army as the Beast Lord has no need for pirates and prefers the teeth of his minions to the Draichs of Har Ganeth.


Pirate Prince: The great Druchii raiders are famous for their raids along the coasts of primitive civilization which supply valuable slaves to their homes in Naggaroth.

The Pirate Prince and any Nobles in the army are automatically equipped with Sea Dragon cloaks at no additional cost. The following units are not allowed to be used under the command of a Pirate Prince: Cold One chariots, City Guard, War Hydra and the Cauldron of Blood (as they are too difficult to transport effectively during a raid) In addition, Cold One Knights become a 0-1 Special choice. However, a new unit, Black Ark Raiders, becomes available:

A unit of Black Ark Raiders can be taken as a special choice in any army led by a Pirate Prince.

Black Ark Raiders 13 pts/model
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
Raider 6 4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8
Bosun 6 4 4 3 3 1 5 2 8

Weapons and Armour: Two hand weapons, Sea Dragon cloak, and repeater crossbow.
Options:
• Upgrade one Raider to a Musician for +6 pts.
• Upgrade one Raider to a Standard Bearer for +12 pts.
• Promote one Raider to a Bosun for +12 pts.

Special Rules: Raiders.

Raiders: Black Ark Raiders move in a skirmish formation. In combat, they arrange themselves as a regular skirmishing unit would but may claim a rank bonus for up to two ranks after the first.

As the Pirate Prince is most keen on taking slaves, any models which are killed (including those which have fled of the table, are run down, or are fleeing at the end of the game) are worth 1 extra Victory Point.


Hag Queen: The great ladies of Khaine are not to be forgotten from the list of High Lords, for they command legions of followers both the brides of Khaine and the common people.

With a Hag Queen commanding the army, Witch Elves now become a Core unit and Harpies become a 0-2 Special choice. There can, however, be no Corsairs in the army and the Hag Queen cannot use any mundane armour (or magic armour). She does, however, have access to Temple of Khaine upgrades in addition to magic items.


High Sorceress 200 Points



Characters (Heroes)

Dark Elf Noble 70 Points

Sorceress 85 Points

Beastmaster 35 Points

• May choose an additional hand weapon (+4 points) or if mounted, a lance (+4 points).
• May wear light armour (+2 points) and be given a Sea Dragon cloak (+6 points).
• May ride either a Cold One (+24 points), a Dark Steed (+12 points), a Dark Pegasus (+55 points), or a Manticore (+190 points).
• May choose magic items from the Common or Dark Elf magic items lists with a maximum total value of 50 points.


Assassin 125 points

Weapons: Hand Weapon
Options:
• May choose an additional hand weapon (+4 points).
• May also be armed with a repeater crossbow pistol (+8 points).
• May choose magic items from the Common or Dark Elf magic items lists and upgrades from the Temple of Khaine list with a maximum total value of 50 points.

Special Rules: Scout, Killing Blow, Poisoned Attacks, Hidden, Focus.

Focus: An Assassin can never issue or accept challenges as he is too disciplined and focused on his goal to be bothered with pride. As such, Assassins are not great leaders though they are still highly skilled and ruthless warriors. Units in the Dark Elf army can never use the Assassin’s leadership value and an Assassin can never be the army General.


Repeater Crossbow Pistol:
Maximum Range: 10”; Strength: 3
Rules: 2 x Multiple Shots
Shoot in Hand-to-Hand Combat: A model armed with a repeater crossbow pistol may shoot it in the first round of a hand-to-hand combat and this shot is always resolved first, before any blows are struck. This shot has an extra -2 penalty to hit (-1 move and -1 for shooting while charging). This bonus attack is in addition to close combat weapon attacks and cannot be directed at a single model. Any wounds caused count towards combat resolution.


Core Units

Dark Elf Warriors 8 Points/model
Unit Size: 10+
Weapons and Armour: Hand weapon, spear, light armour.
Options:
• Any unit may be equipped with shields for +1 pt/model.
• Any unit may replace spears with repeater crossbows for +3 pts/model.


City Guard 8 Points/model
Unit Size: 15+
Weapons and Armour: Hand weapon, spear, light armour.
Options:
• Any unit may be equipped with shields for +1 pt/model.
• Any number of models in the unit may replace spears with repeater crossbows for +3 pts/model.


Corsairs 10 Points/model
Unit Size: 10+
Weapons and Armour: Two hand weapons, light armour and Sea Dragon cloak.

Dark Riders 18 Points/model
Unit Size: 5+
Weapons and Armour: Hand weapon, light armour, spear.
Mounts: Dark Steeds.
Options:
• Any unit may have repeater crossbows for +4 pts/model.
Special Rules: Fast Cavalry.


Beast Pack 15 pts + various/model
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
War Hound 6 4 0 3 3 1 3 1 6 (6 pts)
Giant Spider 7 3 0 3 3 1 3 1 3 (8 pts)
Cold One 7 3 0 4 4 1 3 1 3 (12pts)
Pack Master 6 4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8

* A Beast Pack does not count towards the minimum core choice requirement.
Unit Size: 5-20 Beasts and 2 Pack Masters.
Weapons: The Pack Masters are armed with 2 hand weapons.
Special Rules: Beast Pack, Cold Ones are Stupid, have a 5+ scaly skin save and cause Fear, Giant Spiders have Poisoned Attacks.

Beast Pack: All Beasts in the pack must be of the same type and all packs are trained to make use of their numbers and as such can count a rank bonus. The Pack Masters are always placed at the rear of the unit and will never move to the front rank until all the beasts have been eliminated.


Special Units


Shades 12 Points/model
Unit Size: 5+
Weapons and Armour: Hand weapon and repeater crossbow.
Options:
• Any unit may have light armour for 1 pt/model.
• Any unit may have an additional hand weapon for +2 pts/model.
• Promote one Shade to Bloodshade for +6 pts.


Witch Elves 11 Points/model
Unit Size: 5+
Weapons: Two hand weapons.
Special Rules: Poisoned attacks, Devotees of Khaine, Frenzy.


Executioners 11 Points/model
Unit Size: 5+
Weapons and Armour: Draich (great weapons) and heavy armour.
Special Rules: Killing Blow.


Cold One Knights 29 Points/model
Unit Size: 5+
Weapons and Armour: Lance, hand weapon, heavy armour and shield.
Special Rules: Stupidity, Fear, Thick Skinned.


Cold One Chariot 95 Points/model
Unit Size: Each Cold One Chariot is a separate unit, with two crew pulled by two Cold Ones.
Weapons: Crew carry hand weapons. The chariot has scythed wheels.
• The crew may have repeater crossbows for +8 pts and/or spears for +2 pts.
• Certain characters may ride in a chariot. They replace one of the crew and the points value of the crew member is lost.
Special Rules: Stupidity, Fear, Chariot.

Note that they are 1 per special choice here.


0-1 Harpies 13 Points/model


Black Drake Riders 40 Points/model
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
Drake Rider 5 4 4 3 3 2 5 1 8
Harbinger 5 4 4 3 3 2 5 2 8
Black Drake 3 3 0 4 3 1 3 2 5

Unit Size: 3-10
Weapons and Armour: Spears, hand weapon, shields and light armour.
Mounts: Black Drakes.
Options:
• Any unit may trade their spears and shields for repeater crossbows.
• Promote one Drake Rider to a Harbinger for +20 pts.

Special Rules: Hit and Run, Flying Cavalry.


Rare Units


War Hydra 220 Points/model
Unit Size: One War Hydra, driven into battle by Beastmaster Apprentices.
Weapons: Apprentices have two hand weapons.
Special Rules: Breathe Fire, Terror, Controlled, Large Target, Scaly Skin, Impact Hits.
Impact Hits: When the War Hydra charges into a unit, it does D6 impact hits (resolved at Strength 5) just like a chariot.


0-1 Black Guard 15 Points/model
Unit Size: 5+
Weapons and Armour: Halgaith (mixed weapon), heavy armour
• The Master may have up to 25 points of magic items.
Special Rules: Eternal Hatred, Stubborn, Halgaith.

Halgaith: The main weapon of the black guard is a mixed weapon that can be used as both a halberd and as a spear. The manner in which the unit chooses to fight must be decided upon before a combat begins.


0-1 Cauldron of Blood 200 Points/model
Unit Size: One Cauldron of Blood, two Witch Elves, led by a Hag
Weapons: The Witch Elves and Hag have two hand weapons.
Special Rules: Poisoned Attacks, Frenzy, Red Fury, Terror.


Reaper Bolt Thrower 100 Points/model



Beasts of Karond Kar

Manticore
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
6 5 0 5 5 4 5 4 6


Black Dragon
Noxious Breath: This is a breath weapon. Hits are resolved with a Strength of 4 and any unit that suffers casualties must take an immediate panic test


Temple of Khaine


Poisons


Lifebane 25 Points
For every unsaved wound caused, the wounded model must make a toughness test. If this test is failed, the enemy succumbs to the poison and loses an extra wound with no saves of any kind (even regeneration) allowed. In addition, the model counts as having Poisoned Attacks.


Skills

Blessed of Khaine 50 Points
Only one model in the army may be given this Blessing. The character is given Magic Resistance (2) and any unit within 6” of the character also receives Magic Resistance (1).

Dance of the Mist 25 Points
Enemies are at -1 to hit the model in close combat. Models on foot only.

Mortal Fury 25 Points
The model has the Eternal Hatred special rule.

Potion of Strength 15 Points
Declare at the beginning of any close combat phase (right after an assassin is revealed if you wish). For the remainder of that phase the character has +2 Strength. One use only.


Druchii Magic Items

Executioner’s Axe 70 Points
The wielder counts as having Strength 10. However, the Executioner’s Axe is two handed and the wielder always strikes last except in the turn he charges.

Venom Sword 70 Points

Armour of Eternal Servitude 50 Points
This heavy armour gives a basic 5+ armour save, which can be combined with other armour as normal. In addition, the wearer can regenerate.

Armour of Meteoric Iron 30 Points
This armour gives a save of 1+ which cannot be improved in any way.

This thing replaces the armour of darkness - its not like Kouran is going to be using it anyways now. ;)


Black Amulet
Changed to give the 5+ save all the time.



Points/model formulae:

Warriors: Elf (6 pts) + light armour (1 pt) + spear (1 pt) = 8. Repeater crossbow is 4 pts from 6.

Corsairs: Elf (6 pts) + light armour (1 pt) + 2nd weapon (1 pt) + Sea Dragon cloak (2) = 10.

Black Ark Raiders: Elf (6 pts) + Sea Dragon cloak (2 pts) + 2nd weapon (1 pt) + repeater crossbow (4 pts) = 13.
Raider rule assumed to be a bonus compensating for lack of unit choices.

Dark Riders: Elf (6 pts) + light armour (1 pt) + spear (2 pt) + dark steed(6)*1.5 = 18. Repeater crossbow is 4 pts from 6. Notes – special rule for fast cavalry comes free.

Shades: Elf (6 pts) + repeater crossbow (4) + skirmishers (1) + scouts (1) = 12.

Witch Elves: Elf (6 pts) + stat upgrades (1) + 2 poisoned weapons (3) + frenzy (1) = 11.

Black Guard: Elf (6 pts) + halgaith (2) + stat increases (1) + eternal hatred (2) + stubborn (2) + heavy armour (2) = 15.



Comments: The purpose of this writing is basically to keep most of what is in the current list while adding some things I think should be added for the sake of flavour more than anything else while making an attempt to “fix” current issues with the list while using precedent and very few if any new special rules or special rules relating to any particular unit. There was also a strong effort made to be methodical about costing units, so while it looks like a number of units have gone down in cost, do keep in mind that it is fairly minimal overall and has a formulaic background. There were changes to a few of the characters in terms of cost, however. The changes in cost to the sorceresses reflects how little the soft stats matter to a model that’s going to be surrounded in most cases by models of the same stat line and therefore adds very little to the unit as a character beyond the basic magic effects. As such, a human wizard, an elven wizard, and a goblin wizard should all have about the same cost in principle owing to the fact that overall they accomplish the same thing. If any elven player could use a goblin shaman instead of a sorceress, chances are they’d go for it for the reason that it costs less and does the same thing.

The Beastmaster price changed because of how I perceived the formula to be – 6 x base cost for the extra wound and “hero” status – not that I really think that has any value. In my mind it is really a fairly meaningless change in the end though. More meaningful are the extra mount options the Beastmaster has.

I figure I owe an explanation to how the assassin was given so much more for no increase in cost. First, the repeater crossbow pistol is not a new concept really as it is borrowed from the Mordheim crossbow pistol and was priced the same as a repeater crossbow. In terms of the overall cost, I figure that in the end, based on the stat line, he should be priced the same as a noble for the reason that the increases the assassin has over the noble as mostly soft stats and are compensated by the lack of any armour options, plain and simple. As for the leadership differences, I figure that Ld 9 which can be shared is more valuable than Ld 10 which cannot be shared (and he’ll run with the unit anyways if it fails a test at Ld 8 ). From there (at 70 points) I include 30 points for Killing Blow and then another 10 points for poison (as taken from precedent in the current Temple of Khaine items list). I then figure that the hidden rule is worth approximately 15 points as upgrades to always strike first tend to cost about 25 points for most other armies that have them (and this includes vampires which benefit from that sort rule a lot more) and this is a one time deal if you even use it in the first place.

One the subject of City Guard, while I acknowledge that they do in fact seem to make regular warriors obsolete, I say, so what? When I think of Druchii I tend to think of them marching into combat all the while firing off repeater crossbow bolts (lots of shots, and no chance to hit). It is very much like the older style of Dark Elves which pretty much could all have repeater crossbows (and they were better weapons). Also note that for the sake of simplicity that they’d lose their ability to get a 4+ save in the front rank and that their formation is, as always, very restrictive. Their minimum unit size is also larger and their upgrades also cost more.

On the subject of unit sizes, it should be noticed that most of the elite units have a minimum unit size of 5+ to reflect the trend in this edition of that minimum size for elite units.

The War Hydra is now very similar in rules to the Stegadon in that I’ve included impact hits with it. I feel that any animal driven into combat is going to cause some sort of impact – in fact, I think of the hydra as I would an elephant in ancient warfare (which is how the Stegadon is portrayed). The leadership aspect is still kept low and like all Dark Elf units, if you hit it, its likely going to fold up, but now, like other Dark Elf units, it has a bit more punch, though if you don’t plan right or get a bit unlucky and don’t get the punch you want (rolling low for impact hits) you’re going to be in trouble for sure. It’s a small tweak that I think really lends itself to the idea behind the hydra while not overpowering it.

A similar effort was made to help the Black Guard while not giving them any extra special rules (as they have too many already I think) to give them that edge. Instead, they are given a different weapon which can help them defensively if they need it. In theme it might be said that its not like the Black Guard not to want to try chopping people up, but I think its still in theme for the ones behind the first rank to want to get a piece of the action and get some attacks in as well. It should be noted though that I think all halberds should work in the same way (as they do for Warhammer Quest in fact). I still think that they’d be better off with heavy armour and shields rather than halberds which would keep them cheaper and give them a much better armour save, but that a rules based idea rather than a feel and fluff based one.

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Wed May 02, 2007 7:06 pm
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Master of the Red Legion
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Something I should point out is that some of this stuff is resurrected from the ToK list that Z and I developed a while back and a couple things are based off of ideas I've shared with others here so there is no way I can claim full credit for all the ideas (not to mention the stuff I have directly copied from GW).

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Wed May 02, 2007 7:09 pm
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Quote:
Halgaith (mixed weapon)

you didnt write what weappons it is...


Wed May 02, 2007 8:17 pm
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I still think there's no real tactical need for corsairs as is in the list. 4+ vs shooting is increasingly worhtless as more high strength shooting and AP becomes more common. As flankers, warriors are often a better choice as they concede less casualties and the extra attacks of corsairs still don't actually do much.

Likewise, executioners aren't good enough because they simply don't have enough attacks.

For the heroes, I still don't see the point of beastmasters. What are they supposed to do in our list (maybe they should make the beast unit they join stubborn?). As for assassins, the changes are nice although personally, I wouldn't want poison as it takes away chances to do KB's. Also, I think a potentially nice addition would be to let him mix more than one poison. Having a manbane + black lotus combo vs TK for example would be very mean...

With this list you have tried to show restraint and not just turn it into a wishlist like so many of us would. However, I still think repaeter bolt thrower's and the cauldron of blood are too expensive by about 20pts, cold ones advantages don't outweigh their general mediocrity combined with stupidity.

Other random points; I would use the repeater pistol stats and rules from menghil since they already exist, I would give the BA raiders the raiders rule from beasts of chaos since they already exist and cover how characters interact within skirmisher combat units (fix them to frontage 5 minimum of course) and allow the raiders the option of light armour... even shades can buy light armour if they want it. Also, I would change the Black amulet to a 4+ save in combat only rather than a 5+ all the time. At 5+ it's not even worth considering for heroes because it most likely won't even save them once. At 4+ in combat, it becomes handy for even a 2 wound hero and very useful on an assassin.

The last thing I would say is howabout trying to add a poison option to a few units? If lizardmen and VC can get it on core choices it can't be all that overpowering and would be a welcome boost to our generally innefectual troop attacks and shooting.

Sulla


Wed May 02, 2007 8:52 pm
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garluch wrote:
Quote:
Halgaith (mixed weapon)

you didnt write what weappons it is...


Its right under the entry. Its a mixed spear/halberd - choose one or the other to use during a combat. The idea being that the black guard can be exceptionally effective in a prolongued combat if you so choose. Say, 5 wide frontage in the second round and 11 attacks with the champion. Hitting on 3s most often you get around 10 hits surprisingly and about 5 wounds (saves modify the results of course). With the halberds you get 4 hits and 2 or 3 wounds but get a slightly better armour save modifier meaning that using the spears should get you at least one extra unsaved wound and ensures that if they are in fact charged that they'll be able to inflict some damage before the second round.

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Wed May 02, 2007 9:16 pm
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sulla wrote:
I still think there's no real tactical need for corsairs as is in the list. 4+ vs shooting is increasingly worhtless as more high strength shooting and AP becomes more common. As flankers, warriors are often a better choice as they concede less casualties and the extra attacks of corsairs still don't actually do much.

I look at corsairs for two things - the better save vs shooting and the extra attack all the time at the 5+ save in combat which is just as good as warriors. I also look at them for theme, but that's me and that doesn't justify their inclusion in the list. Another idea you can have for them is to make their unit size 5+ which might be fun to play around with. To be honest, I don't agree that warriors are better flankers for the simple reason that they are more vulnerable to shooting, which tends to be what takes out most flanker style units in a DE army (unless you're using units of 20 for flanking, in which case what do you care about a 40 point difference in the unit when you're already spending 60 more points than you really need to to accomplish the goal). I also don't think more high strength shooting and AP are going to become more common. That's a misconception I think based partly on the idea that its a 40K kind of trend and in WFB the armies that have most recently come out (WE, Dwarfs, and Empire) all have either special shooting rules or blackpowder weapons. You'll notice that the Orcs and goblins didn't really get any better with shooting.

Likewise, executioners aren't good enough because they simply don't have enough attacks.

What! Name one equivalent unit that's actually better for its Ld and cost? And WS 5? These guys may have high soft stats, but some of them are really really useful. In an army that's in dire need of S5 for armour penetration and can't see them being a crummy unit. Its certainly a sad day when someone thinks they'll only be good if they are an insta-kill sort of unit that's going to unleash 12 strength 5 attacks all the time.

For the heroes, I still don't see the point of beastmasters. What are they supposed to do in our list (maybe they should make the beast unit they join stubborn?).

They really have no point beyond fluff and a cheap general in the end. I'm hoping that with the new mount availability that new tactical avenues will open. Also, with the beast herds in the list they could be more useful for keeping those cheap units in line.

As for assassins, the changes are nice although personally, I wouldn't want poison as it takes away chances to do KB's. Also, I think a potentially nice addition would be to let him mix more than one poison. Having a manbane + black lotus combo vs TK for example would be very mean...

I think you're asking for way too much from a list. If you want to play an army that will always be very strong and have a whole bunch of truly sick combo possibilities I think you're in the wrong place. Personally, I think he's pretty sick as it is since he's got KB, poison, and you can upgrade him to have 5 attacks and be at -1 to hit (which means most common things will hit him on 6s). Mixing poisons is an interesting idea, but I think impractical fluff-wise and likely chemically impossible to do well.

With this list you have tried to show restraint and not just turn it into a wishlist like so many of us would. However, I still think repaeter bolt thrower's and the cauldron of blood are too expensive by about 20pts, cold ones advantages don't outweigh their general mediocrity combined with stupidity.

You're right, I've tried to make something that isn't a wish list and instead coudl be taken as rather useful and fun to play and more importantly keeping in theme with how I think the game should be.

I had an idea once about the RBT and that it should be BS 5 for 100 points - now that would certainly be worthwhile. However, I used to be one of the people who used 4 and even now people cringe when I bring out two of the things. I've gotten so good with them that unless I'm wiped out, they are invariably there at the end of the game. Making them better would mean a lot of glowers in my direction from everyone outside the DE community (and even from inside it).


Other random points; I would use the repeater pistol stats and rules from menghil since they already exist, I would give the BA raiders the raiders rule from beasts of chaos since they already exist and cover how characters interact within skirmisher combat units

I really hate Menghil's pistol rules, so the ones I used were brought in from Mordheim where they have a greater close combat focus which I felt was better for the assassin. The BA raiders do in fact have that raiders rules from the Beast of Chaos book - close enough anyways. I didn't bother to fix them to minimum 5 frontage since I really didn't want to pay any extra points for it. That's still one seriously nasty unit when you get right down to it.

The last thing I would say is howabout trying to add a poison option to a few units? If lizardmen and VC can get it on core choices it can't be all that overpowering and would be a welcome boost to our generally innefectual troop attacks and shooting.

Well, the assassin, witch elves, and cauldron all have it... Most people would argue that the lizardmen unit that has it is completely useless now and that you'll never see it again and many more would argue that ghouls are pretty sick. Also, Menghil has it (and is still a special choice). Besides, the Druchii philosophy in my mind is not that you make a certain weapon better, but rather that you bring more of them into play. So, you don't fire a poisoned bolt - instead you fire two. That's my take on things anyways and why I didn't bother with poison options for say, shades, where I know they are the most popular.

Sulla

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Wed May 02, 2007 9:38 pm
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Vorchild wrote:
sulla wrote:
Likewise, executioners aren't good enough because they simply don't have enough attacks.

What! Name one equivalent unit that's actually better for its Ld and cost? And WS 5? These guys may have high soft stats, but some of them are really really useful. In an army that's in dire need of S5 for armour penetration and can't see them being a crummy unit. Its certainly a sad day when someone thinks they'll only be good if they are an insta-kill sort of unit that's going to unleash 12 strength 5 attacks all the time.




Sulla


No amount of attacks would make executioners instakill since they still can't take a charge from hardly anything. The thing I base it on is that I just can't see many infantry units that they can go toe to toe with successfully. Do you think 200pts of executioners can generally do well vs 200 pts of infantry from most armies?
Maybe horrors or plaguebearers?
Remember those executioners will only do a little under 3 kills vs 4+ save t3 infantry on the charge generally (it's not even worth calculating their performance in subsequent turns) . They don't have enough punch to justify costing more than corsairs and they certainly don't justify being a special choice. They should be 0-2 core at the very least.
I don't particularly agree with your reasoning for corsair costing either. But that might just be me. I just haven't faced much s3 shooting and the cloak does precious little vs black powder...


Thu May 03, 2007 8:43 pm
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I like it. Not too overbearing, but addresses some major issues.

As for the corsairs, I definately think that 5+ would be a much better unit size for them, or maybe even give them the option to skirmish. In my mind, a group of raiders is more efficient as small guerilla type units rather than tightly regimented blocks.

I really like the Highborn ideas. It adds a whole lot of theme and fluff options for armies.

As for the beastmaster, I agree with sulla in that a BM joining a beast unit, be it a beast pack or a Hydra team, should become stubborn. It would add more flavour and definately make the BM a more viable choice instead of a point sink.

As for the hydra Im not sure that impact hits are quite so fluffy. I can see entirely where your coming from, but I dont view the hydra as a big lumbering stegadon. I view the hydra as a sleek and fast moving multi headed serpent that weaves through trees. I say instead of impact hits give it regeneration and/or a S4 breath weapon. That may require the points to go up, but it makes the hydra longer lasting instead of a uber chariot. Thats not to say I wouldnt love to make the hydra into a fire breathing uber chariot, I just think it would be more along the lines of the fluff to give it regen/stronger breath.


dok

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Thu May 03, 2007 10:01 pm
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DiscipleOfKhaine wrote:
I like it. Not too overbearing, but addresses some major issues.

Thanks! :) That's exactly what I was going for.

As for the corsairs, I definately think that 5+ would be a much better unit size for them, or maybe even give them the option to skirmish. In my mind, a group of raiders is more efficient as small guerilla type units rather than tightly regimented blocks.

I know what you mean. Its where I start to debate back and forth. From a military perspective, you can think of them as a sort of British marine of the 18th century (effectively regular redcoats just deployed on a ship) and as such they'd maintain the standard tactics of their contemporaries (in this case, would use ranked formations). Also, in 7th ed I've begun to really dislike skirmishers and I think it would really take away from the black ark raider idea. The more I think of it, the more I REALLY like the 5+ idea. Just think of it - a whole bunch of units of 6 deployed 3 wide looking out there to either suicide charge into mages in units (6 attacks aren't so bad by any means for that) or used for flank attacks to negate ranks, or just cause general trouble while not being too much of a liability. My only concern is that at 5+ they might become a bit broken, but given as they are more expensive I doubt anything terribly crazy would happen.

I really like the Highborn ideas. It adds a whole lot of theme and fluff options for armies.

As for the beastmaster, I agree with sulla in that a BM joining a beast unit, be it a beast pack or a Hydra team, should become stubborn. It would add more flavour and definately make the BM a more viable choice instead of a point sink.

I agree, there should be something that the guy actually adds to the whole deal, but stubborn to me seems to be not the way to do things. Outright stubborn I think is difficult to justify fluff-wise and I think doing stuff like that detracts from the flavour of the list. The only elves that are in fact stubborn are both fairly suicidal (black guard and white lions when guarding).

The way I'm kind of thinking now is that if he's in the unit he can use the rules of undeath to compensate for combat res deficiencies. So, if your beast back loses by 2 points, you can sacrifice two beasts to tie the combat and prevent the roll, or just one to take the roll only at -1. Same for the hydra - do extra wounds to the thing in order for you to take the test at a lower modifier. This would represent the beastmaster wildly beating the thing to keep himself alive (as he'd no doubt care a lot more about himself than the beast he manages).


As for the hydra Im not sure that impact hits are quite so fluffy. I can see entirely where your coming from, but I dont view the hydra as a big lumbering stegadon. I view the hydra as a sleek and fast moving multi headed serpent that weaves through trees. I say instead of impact hits give it regeneration and/or a S4 breath weapon.

I was looking at it from the perspective that yes, it can in fact weave through trees and it has that ability to be graceful for a large monster (which is a very elven thing) but that when it comes to combat the apprentices will whip the thing into a frenzy effectively as it charges forward to cause havoc. It also adds to the whole offensive nature of the Druchii rather than survivalism (not a Druchii characteristic by any stretch of the imagination ;) ). The S4 breath weapon I can see as helpful, sure, but the extra save I'm just not seeing as anything but a bit of false hope. More often than not, my hydra dies from combat res where I whiff on an attack and the static res beats me down - and that's where regen wouldn't help in the least, nor would a S4 breath weapon. Impact hits on the other hand, would help that a lot when charging (and people would look in fear to the charge of a hydra) and in a very elven way ensure that the thing is vulnerable to a prolonged combat.

dok

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Thu May 03, 2007 10:36 pm
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