Stand and Shoot against partly covered charger

[llct]kain · Post by **[llct]kain** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:27 pm

Hi,

I have a strange question, which seems to be relativly clear from the rules - but not very sensefull.

The situation is a unit that is charging a unit of missletroops, but at the begin of the turn the charging unit is mostly hidden behind another unit or some terrain.

M = Missile Troop
C = Charging Unit
T = Terrain/Third Unit

MMMMMMMMM
.......................
.......................
.......................
......................
TTTTTTTTTT.....
.......................
.............CC......
...............CC....
.................CC..
...................CC

The charging unit can see only the most right missile trooper and only the most right one could the the charger. The charger could charge so that all get into CC - be it because of the wheel, or the reason of being skirmisher/flyer.

If the charged unit (M) declares a Stand and Shoot - who could shoot ?

In the BRB it says on page 19 under S&S "This shooting is worked out just before moving chargers[...]refer to the shooting section for rules". Based on this sentence it seems that only the right one missle trooper could shoot because the others have no LOS at this time - even if alle missle troopers will be in base to base after the charge.

It seems a bit odd, because for the topic out of range the charge will be interupted so that every missle trooper could fire....

Post by **Rork** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:37 pm

I think I'd agree. As long as the unit is at least partially in range and LoS, the S&S is worked out there and then - and in which case on the model(s) whose 90 degree LoS would allow them to shoot.

This is just one of those quirky extreme cases that happen from time to time.

Lowcash · Post by **Lowcash** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:13 pm

Here is an added question to your first question. If the missle trooper shoots and kills the only charger with LOS, would the charge still be legal?

I am guessing it would be as the charge move has already started if the missle trooper is S&Sing, but logically it seems that it would not work.

Maybe I am over thinking the whole thing.

Azure · Post by **Azure** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:23 pm

They had the LoS went the charge was declared and I dont see anything stating that the charge would stop... Therefore the charge would still be successful. Warhammer is not about logic (hell, a skeleton walking around killing and blowing a horn?)

-Rex

Lord adrianus · Post by **Lord adrianus** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:10 pm

I thought there was something about stopping at half distance, shooting and then moving on. If you still can only see with 1 model youcan only shoot 1 model

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:13 pm

That might'Ve been 6th edition, I forget.
But right now, in 7th edition book, its clear:
Stand & Shoot is done as soon as every model that can shoot has the range to shoot.

Brace of Pistols on a Dwarf champion in a thunderer unit has a max range of 8", meaning any stand & shoot done by the unit is done when the unit is at 8", if the unit was allowed to stand & shoot of course. This removes the long penalty thunderers would have when doing a stand & shoot against a target more than 12" away.

Post by **Rork** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:03 pm

SilverHeimdall wrote:That might'Ve been 6th edition, I forget.
But right now, in 7th edition book, its clear:
Stand & Shoot is done as soon as every model that can shoot has the range to shoot.

Brace of Pistols on a Dwarf champion in a thunderer unit has a max range of 8", meaning any stand & shoot done by the unit is done when the unit is at 8", if the unit was allowed to stand & shoot of course. This removes the long penalty thunderers would have when doing a stand & shoot against a target more than 12" away.

It does say range, but nothing about LoS. Technically they're two different things, and the charging unit can't "weave" to get more thunderers to shoot.

So if there were a brace of pistols present you would get some extra shots due to its short range, but you'd still only get those models between him and the end model, most likely.

[llct]kain · Post by **[llct]kain** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:17 am

Thank you very much all of you for your confirmation of this.
I see that this opens some new situations, options and discussions.

Lakissov · Post by **Lakissov** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:51 am

about the dwarf with brace of pistol - people got too excited

if any model in the thunderer unit is not out of range before chargers are moved (and with 24" range they usually aren't out of range), then the S&S is resolved immediately, before moving the charger. it doesn't matter if some of the models in the unit can't shoot (like a dwarf hero with brace of pistols) - if they can't, then they can't. the most important thing that at least one model would be able to shoot. (so in the cheesy example woth the dwarf woth brace of pistols, in most cases he wouldn'r be able to S&S at all)

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:26 pm

What.. ? its written

"the unit lets loose as soon as their enemies are within range of every firing model in the unit."

Lakissov · Post by **Lakissov** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:11 am

it's also written that you shoot before moving the chargers, you know. and the only exception to this is when there is no model in the units that is making a S&S reaction, which is in range. which means that if there is at least one model that is in range, then it is not an exception, and you resolve S&S before moving the chargers. ergo, the bugger with 8" pistol won't shoot at all, because other buggers in his unit have 24" guns.

Entreri · Post by **Entreri** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:35 am

But it also says that their charge is interrupted when the charging unit comes within maximun shooting range!
Then the unit shoots their awaited shots at the chargers, same so with the character with the 8" weapon, he waits till the best moment and fires!
It also sound logical!

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:35 am

How can you even ignore that very clear rule?

"the unit lets loose as soon as their enemies are within range of every firing model in the unit ."

The CONDITION for Stand & Shoot to take part BEFORE the chargers move is that every model that is allowed to stand & shoot is in range.
Of course if the Dwarf with the pistols can't see the charger, you do the Stand & Shoot where the chargers are, because its 24" range for the rest. But if that Dwarf has line of sight to the unit charging and wants to stand & shoot, THEN you do your charge movement until you get to 8" from the dwarf unit, THEN they stand & shoot.

It's Beardy and its a Dwarf, what else do you expect? Its not illegal, its the way to do it, by the rules.

Plus, even by 'fluff' or 'non-RAW' a stand & shoot should be while the unit advances toward you - any experienced warrior would wait to shoot. I'm getting ahead of myself here but Stand & Shoot should require a panic test - a panic test that if failed, the unit shoots too soon, if passed, they shoot at short range.

BUT ANYWAY. Right now, the rules, are clear. That dwarf unit with the pistols champion (which no one ever really takes) will stand & shoot at 8" if the champion had line of sight to Stand & shoot (because it still follows the normal rule for shooting)

Entreri · Post by **Entreri** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:35 am

O and fair! as you paid for the pistols!

Lakissov · Post by **Lakissov** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:04 am

@SilverHeimdal

I was always forgetting to recheck it in the few recent days but remembered yesterday, and so checked the BRB. I once again repeat - read the book attentively.

The section about stand and shoot says that the reaction is resolved before the chargers are moved. Take it as the main rule. If there is some exception, then apply the exception. If there is no exception, then use the rule.

Now, the exception part kicks in. The book says that if the chargers start beyond the maximum range of the stand-and-shooting unit's weapons, then the chargers are moved first, and their charge is interrupted when all models of the stand-and-shooting unit can shoot.

Got it? If I charge a unit of handgunners with a pistol thane, then I don't start my charge beyond their maximum range. That's just not possible, because their range is 24", and my charge reach is 20" at best. And as I am not beyond the maximum range, then this is not the situation described in the exception. Which means that I should use the main rule. Which means that the stand-and-shoot reaction is resolved before the chargers are moved. Which in turn means that some of the models in the unit might be unable to stand-and-shoot, e.g. the thane with his 8" pistols.

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:18 am

It clearly says "the unit lets loose as soon as their enemies are within range of every firing model in the unit ." right after your quote of "maximum range"

How can you interpret it that the 8" pistol champion is excluded from this? On what rules do you base this idea that beacuse he has less range, he cannot stand & shoot? The "Maximum range" includes the condition "every firing model in the unit".

Or would you have stand & shoot for the thunderers and then at 8" you stop again for that one stand & shoot? There isn't enough information in the rules to completely ignore the 8" pistols.

Tich · Post by **Tich** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:36 am

I havew to agree with Lakissov, the maximu8m range rul is for groups with short range like skaven slingers or skinks.

Lakissov · Post by **Lakissov** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:45 am

SilverHeimdall wrote:The "Maximum range" includes the condition "every firing model in the unit".

No it doesn't. Check your rule book. It is not written there. It is written as "the maximum range of the units ranged weapons" or something like this (I don't have the book at hand at the moment, but I do remember 100%, because I checked it specifically, that this condition doesn't say about every model in the firing unit)

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:02 am

You read your book ok? I just read it before posting the above and it is clearly said, right after 'maximum range' -> "the unit lets loose as soon as their enemies are within range of every firing model in the unit ."

Lakissov · Post by **Lakissov** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:12 am

exactly!
the reference to every model in the unit is given not in the condition of hte exception but in its effect

this is elementary logics

IF charger is beyond maximum range of the unit's weapons
THEN move chargers till they are in range of all models
ELSE make the stand and shoot immediately

really, if you read the book but don't undestand the meaning of words, then you will probably never understand what is written ther. sad.

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:03 am

Wow, way to start up on the insult there. It's not at all that I don't understand the words, just look at that part of the rule and tell me WHY its there then if you think I don't understand at all.

Why would it be written "the unit lets loose as soon as their enemies are within range of every firing model in the unit ." if, according to you, it's wrong? This is a special case where the unit has 2 different maximum range. Why, by your logic, should one be ignored?

Alright, enough anyway.
We disagree on this rule, play it your way, I'll play it mine.

Khel · Post by **Khel** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:45 am

I don't want to start a flame war but there is a correct way and a wrong way to the ruling and you really should follow the correct way. Lakissov is correct.

Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:15 pm

ok one more snide comment and warnings WILL be handed out!

Post by **Layne** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:44 pm

Is it possible that both could be applied? You could have one s&s where the HG's fire, then chargers are moved to where pistolmatey can fire (if they haven't already panicked!), then he does his shooty bit, and if that doesn't panic them (remembering this is all in the one phase) then on they go. The rules may be the rules, but you take pistols so you can always stand and shoot, and to deny that in this situation has got to be rules lawyering at it's worst. I mean, it's not as if someone's house is riding on the outcome, and if it is, you could just whomp the guy and make him eat his pistol matey model.

It recalls to me the situation of charging Night Gobbos with fanatics in with Flyers. We asked GW for clarification on this, and they said that the Flyers are grounded at 8" and the fanatics released. We thought that it would be best if the fanatics were released before the charge; if the Flyer had room to land, then charge is ok, but if he had to land on a fanatic or two, then too bloody bad.

End point is : I don't agree with any of you. What I have proposed is, I hope, a solution that could make sense to all of you that cuts through both the ambiguity and the tomfoolery of the rules as they are written.

Layne.

Lordofthenight · Post by **Lordofthenight** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:21 pm

I don't agree with it, but from the wording I'm fairly sure SilverHeimdall is correct. I'd never heard of it like that before this site, yet since coming here I've seen it said that way several times, on other elven sites as well.

I've never seen anyone comment saying it's not played that way either. None of the dwarf players I know are cunning enough to use pistols instead, so it's never mattered to me either way.