Basic leadership and stubborn...

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Basic leadership and stubborn...

Post by Malekith's psychologist »

Hi all, probably this topic has come up before, but i seem to be too clumsy with the search bar or something, so my question is:

Is it true that subborn units can only use their "stubbornness" with their basic Ld and not the general's or some other character's? For example dwarf hammerers with a Lord can use Ld 10 but if they have a break test at -3 they only get stubborn at Ld9, not 10?

Is it in the rulebook or any FAQ that can confirm this? I usually play against dwarves and this issue could change things a bit, as my opponent tends to roll 10s quite often but has been saved by a general nearby...

Thanx.
DiscipleOfKhaine said:
Im not saying that makes them unworthy of a model, Im just saying...that Malekith is the greatest elven king in the history of the world and I will never concede otherwise.
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Post by Linda lobsta defenda »

Page 53 top right column. "stubborn units use the Leadership value on their profile"

also page 78 clearly state how you use a characters leadership. The example spells out a situation like you painted up.
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Post by Malekith's psychologist »

Thanx!
DiscipleOfKhaine said:
Im not saying that makes them unworthy of a model, Im just saying...that Malekith is the greatest elven king in the history of the world and I will never concede otherwise.
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Post by Silverheimdall »

on a similar topic
Doom & Darkness -3 Leadership, does it affect Stubborn troops at all?
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Post by Jayferd22 »

Based on what linda lobsta defenda said in quotes I would say doom and darkness has no affect on breaktests for stubborn troops. They always use the unmodified leadership for breaktests. However it might for other tests?
The time for critical thinking is becoming critical I think
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Post by Dalamar »

It appears so, although their Ld would be modified for all other Ld tests as normal.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Post by Tolkar of har ganeth »

They can use their stuborn with THEIR unmodified leadership for test, or the leadership of a character which WILL be modified. If the doom and darkness is cast, it remains the same. But with -3Ld all the way. Even with the character closeby
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Post by Dalamar »

Doom and Darkness modifies Ld by -3, Stubborn units take break tests (and break tests only) on their unmodifed leadership, thus it seems reasonable that D&D has no effect on them for break tests (and break tests only)
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Post by Linda lobsta defenda »

RAW: no effect on their breaktest

However a lot of people say that stubborn simply mean that their Ld is not modified by CR. So.. discussing it with your opponent beforehand is a good idea.
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Post by Malekith's psychologist »

On a similar note somewhat related with Ld tests (please forgive me if this is OT).

In the new DoC AB "allure of slaanesh" states that "Enemy models wishing to attack the Daemon must first pass a
Leadership test....". Does that mean only CC? As it says "attack" could it also mean shooting attacks?.

You see i'm gonna use DoC against dwarfs with plenty of slaanesh, so i'm worried about all these Ld issues, like the stubornness and such...

@Dalamar: I thought stubborn meant that your Ld couldn't be modified by CR, doesn't it say anywhere that it can be affected by magical means? Otherwise why not just make the unit unbreakable?

Thanx for the quick replies
DiscipleOfKhaine said:
Im not saying that makes them unworthy of a model, Im just saying...that Malekith is the greatest elven king in the history of the world and I will never concede otherwise.
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Post by Bad beast »

just a side note, stubborn units get to use either the modified generals leadership (if he's in range) or their own unmodified leadership, whichever is higher

this mostly comes up with snotlings and there pathetic leadership 4, if they are in range of an orc general (leadership 8 or 9)
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Post by Dalamar »

Malekith's psychologist wrote:On a similar note somewhat related with Ld tests (please forgive me if this is OT).

In the new DoC AB "allure of slaanesh" states that "Enemy models wishing to attack the Daemon must first pass a
Leadership test....". Does that mean only CC? As it says "attack" could it also mean shooting attacks?.

You see i'm gonna use DoC against dwarfs with plenty of slaanesh, so i'm worried about all these Ld issues, like the stubornness and such...


Last sentence specifies combat so it doesn't work against shooting attacks

@Dalamar: I thought stubborn meant that your Ld couldn't be modified by CR, doesn't it say anywhere that it can be affected by magical means? Otherwise why not just make the unit unbreakable?

Thanx for the quick replies


Stubborn means you take break tests on the Ld that is stated in the model's profile unchanged by any means (but note that testing on more dice like with Slaanesh 6th spell is not modyfing Leadership ;) )
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Post by Malekith's psychologist »

Last sentence specifies combat so it doesn't work against shooting attacks


Indeed, stupid me....
DiscipleOfKhaine said:
Im not saying that makes them unworthy of a model, Im just saying...that Malekith is the greatest elven king in the history of the world and I will never concede otherwise.
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Post by Jayferd22 »

However a lot of people say that stubborn simply mean that their Ld is not modified by CR. So.. discussing it with your opponent beforehand is a good idea.


Thank you for spelling this out, this was the point i was attempting to get across to no avail. Unmodified by CR is not the same as Unmodified entirely.
The time for critical thinking is becoming critical I think
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Post by Bleys »

I'd be inclined to say that Doom and Darkness would affect a Stubborn unit, even on their break test. The RAW state:
BRB, page 52 wrote:They always ignore Break test modifiers, regardless of how much they lost the combat by.


Doom and Darkness is not a "Break test modifier", therefore, IMO, it would apply to a Stubborn unit, even when it's taking a Break test.

Just one way to look at it, though :D
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Post by Jayferd22 »

Off Topic In Flames ia a great band Bleys.

Is there anyway we can get Gav involved here? This topic obviously has two different ways of looking at it and could use some input from the higher ups.
The time for critical thinking is becoming critical I think
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Post by Ehakir »

I completely agree with jayferd22 in this case; you can modify the ld of a stubborn unit with D&D, as it just 'changes' the leadership. Before the combat the LD is already at -3, so you start the combat with stubborn at your LD-3, or that's at least the way I have always played it ;)
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Post by Silverheimdall »

Same, but some can argue against it due to the wording of stubborn.

Small things like that can make a biiiig difference.. I mean, Ld7 Giant is much easier to take on than LD10!
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Post by Linda lobsta defenda »

jayferd22 wrote:Off Topic In Flames ia a great band Bleys.

Is there anyway we can get Gav involved here? This topic obviously has two different ways of looking at it and could use some input from the higher ups.


Gav is no longer working for GW. I will see if I can get a hold of Alessio.
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Post by Lakissov »

well, arguing that Doom and Darkness and other items that modify leadership are useless against stubborn units is a bit over the top, I'd say.

and, to use the weapon of the nasty people who use ridiculous arguments against those people themselves, here is my ridiclulous argument:
- Stubborn units ignore break test modifiers,
- Doom and Darkness doesn't result in break test modifiers; the effect of D&D is an Ld modifier,
=> ergo, a stubborn unit makes the break test at its modified leadership
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Post by Dalamar »

one sentence before the one quoted by Blays:

page 53 rulebook
"During a Break test, Stubborn units use the Leadership value on their profile."

Second sentence doesn't invalidate the first one, they both work together.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Post by Silverheimdall »

And what's to say a Leadership modification from a spell doesnt apply it to the profile?

It would be pointless if it didnt affect Stubborn troops AND the spell would/should state that it has no effect on Stubborn & Immune to Psycho troops, not just 'Immune to Psycho' troops.
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Post by Dalamar »

But it has effect on stubborn units - for all Ld tests that aren't Break tests
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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