Killing Blow and Combat Resolution

[Naggarond]

Kurlan is right.

First KB rolled causes number of wounds equal to the remaining wounds the model has.

Further KB's cause one wound each.

And someone before posted that max Overkill is +6, nope its +5.

E.g. assassin VS unit with hero with 2 wounds.

Challenge accepted. Assasin with hand of khaine strikes first lets say he hits with 6 attacks then rolls 2,2,4,5,6,6. First 6 causes 2 wounds on the hero slaying him. Next KB causes another. Two more thats 5 wounds total.

He then loses due to static CR and musician

[Furiouscado]

Honestly, it seems pretty simple. Unless there is an errata or a FAQ out there that says otherwise, Killing Blow counts as a single wound. As many people have pointed out here, when a model with the Killing Blow special ability rolls a 6 on the to-wound roll the victim receives one wound with no armour or regen saves allowed and (if not warded) dies. One single wound. Much like the Pit of Shades spell. The model takes an Initiative test and if it fails, it is removed as a casualty. It does not say "...if it fails, is dealt a number wounds sufficient to kill it". Same goes for the Ring of Nightmares (or whatever that silly bound magic item we had was called) where any model in base contact of the bearer is, on a roll of 6, sucked into the realm of eternal nightmares and "counts as slain". Yet again, no mention of wounds. Edit: Of course it makes sense that watching your captain get beheaded would be more intimidating than a normal wound, but when does logic ever coincide with Warhammer?

The trend here is that unless a rule (or a FAQ, errata, etc, like the VC item) specifically states that a model "loses its remaining wounds", it does not. Thus, Killing Blow is a single wound.

Now, I could swear there was a 6th Ed. FAQ specifying that for challenges KB counted as remaining wounds but I haven't been able to find it any time I've looked, so the above still stands.

You can't use the logic of Pit of Shades and the ring to describe a similar situation. With both of those abilities, the entire model is being relocated, potentially with no damage actually being done. The model falls into a shadowy pit and disappears...or the model is teleported through a rift in space and time... they aren't being wounded..

With KB the model is being hurt which brings me to:

Imagine somebody being cut in real life....

if they were struck so that the blade severed an artery, then the chances are they would die outright from that one wound. However, it is possible that several lesser cuts, perhaps through minor veins, could lead to a great enough loss of blood to have the same effect...they die.

When you look at wounds in WH, consider the total number of wounds as the number of damaging hits the model can take before it is too much for its body to take and so it succumbs.

Killing blow is different. It is an immediately fatal blow, such as decapitation for example. Ultimately however, it was still only a single wound that caused the death.

For purposes of the game, it is a single wound. The benefit of killing blow is that you kill the character outright. Any other wounds you cause, killing blow or otherwise would count alongside that single wound towards CR.

You have the right idea in that the number of remaining wounds is a notation of "how much they can take" but once you start bringing in "think of it this way" scenarios... other people have ones mentioned earlier that just continue this debate. People want to know how it affects CR and the argument is that watching someone getting decapitated in 1 swing is just a scary, or scarier, than watching a few lesser strikes bringing down the champion.

we're just going to have to wait for an errata if it ever comes or find the old one people keep talking about. I just don't see GW giving KB that kind of weakness in its ruling.

[Right hand of khaine]

Ok everybody. I have had a word with one of my friends, who is a member of the Peterborough GW staff, and he says that there is no definitive answer written up as far as he knows....but.....

in store they have decided that for the purposes of getting on with playing games, rather than discussing potential definitions of rules, that the first KB in a challenge would kill the enemy character and cause as many wounds as on their profile remaining.

So if you KB a character with 3 wounds, then you get all 3 wounds towards CR, not just the one. Any other wounds caused will add up towards the max CR bonus you can get which i believe is 5 additional wounds in total.

Finally, if you get 2 KB in a combat round, the first gives you the total number of wounds the enemy character has...for example 3....and the second KB would just give you 1 additional wound.

Although this is potentially still not official, this is the rule I will be using from now on as it is the one they use in my GW store.

Hope that helps.

Right Hand Of Khaine

[Vodrake]

I firmly believe that if you killing blow a guy with 3 wounds, you get 3 wounds for combat res.

In regards to the great unclean one, yes you can killing blow it, it says in the rules for killing blow that if you roll a 6 when rolling to wound, you killing blow it, doesnt matter what the T of the creature is. Its the same deal as the vamp sword of kings, he still killing blows stuff on a 5+ even if normally he would need a 6 to wound.

[Furiouscado]

I firmly believe that if you killing blow a guy with 3 wounds, you get 3 wounds for combat res.

In regards to the great unclean one, yes you can killing blow it, it says in the rules for killing blow that if you roll a 6 when rolling to wound, you killing blow it, doesnt matter what the T of the creature is. Its the same deal as the vamp sword of kings, he still killing blows stuff on a 5+ even if normally he would need a 6 to wound.

Toughness has nothing to do with not being able to KB a GUO, he's more than US2, so you can't.

pg 95: "..This attack is only effective against models with a unit strength 2 or less..."

He's US 10 unless stated otherwise

[Azure]

Furiouscado: ever heard of a cool little called the bretonnian lance that allows you to KB large targets?

-Rex

[Lordofthenight]

Or Skulltaker for that matter.

[Furiouscado]

Furiouscado: ever heard of a cool little called the bretonnian lance that allows you to KB large targets?

-Rex

no i had not

[Mormeguil]

I still love the killing blow on a steam tank. Always fun.

«the pround bretonian knight is charging headfisrt against the metal monster

"In the name of the Lady!!"

*Lance slide inside the spoting hole and poke the engineer in the eye"

"You foul beast never come back here"

[Scar]

Not really right???

The Steam Tank is a warmachine and not a Monster.

Or does it say's that you can KB great Targets?

[Dggrj]

So... I was just reading the VC FAQ, and I believe that one of its clarifications relates closely enough to this to give indication of intent:

Q: In a situation where a vampire automatically kills an enemy model (frost blade, sword of kings (KB sword, right?), S7 wounding hit vs a chariot) and he has the Red Fury power, does he gain an additional attack for every wound remaining on the slain model's profile? Or does he only gain an additional attack for the initial wound caused?

A: He gains an additional attack for every wound remaining on the slain model's profile.

The similarity of the situation, to me, lends credence to the KB = wounds remaining for CR argument.

Thoughts?

[Gastronauticon]

I like the way you think, dggrj.