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someone just tell us the facts, manbane + rending stars 
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I am not looking to open discussion, as there have been a thread and many little conversations in other thread already about the topic of how exactly manbane and rending stars work together. From what i have read, different people have different opinions, some people think they can reach S7 while others think S6 is the limit with the two combined.

Please, sombody who actually knows what they are talking about tell us exactly how the two work together. There must be someone who worked on the book or whatever can tell us the facts. I dont want to open another debate, there is a place for that, im just looking for a simple answer to a simple enough question.

How does manbane and rending stars combined work?


Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:32 am
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The playtesters (Dark Alliance in particular) played as if it stacked. That is enough for me.

You can't add +1 to your strength without knowing what your strength is. Hence why manbane must be added first and therefore creating S7

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Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:13 am
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No one can really tell you exactly what the facts are because it is an ambiguous situation which needs to be FAQed. The problem is that different people read it different ways, that's why you end up with the debates and arguments, because no one can agree on what the answer actually is.

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Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:36 am
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They way they played it during playtesting does not translate into a rule. The playtesting information is nice to know but we have to work off the rules that GW chooses to publish. Personally, it doesn't make sense without stacking as Azure explained so it should stack. If you want a definitive answer however you are going to need to ask for a GW ruling.

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Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:11 am
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Your right some people read it as the rule is written and other people try to find as many faults as they can for no reason. One SPECIFICALLY says it modifies the users base strength. the other SPECIFICALLY says that it uses the users strength(not base strength) +1. I dont see where the problem is. What is throwing people off is they are letting the mindset of throwing stars get in their way instead of the RULES.

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Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:47 am
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so basically if you throw rending stars with manbane at an enemy, your Strength is Enemy Toughness + 2? (according to the way Azure and co. played it)


Last edited by Kinslayer on Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:11 am
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Here's a quote from what I wrote in another thread about this, complete with BRB quotes for those of us going to the GTs who'll need to prove this.

Milney wrote:

This is where you are wrong. The poisons affect the whole model - so if you do not take a Toxin from the Gifts of Khaine, your Rending Stars or Repeater Handbow benefit from the Assassins basic poisoned attacks.

p.99, Warhammer Armies: Dark Elves:

"All of a model's non-magic weapons may be coated with one type of toxin (replacing its Poisoned Attacks). These toxins have no additional effect against models that are immune to Poisoned Attacks".

This part is so clear that anyone even questioning it needs to evaluate thier own logic.

    Are Rending Stars/Repeater Handbow a weapon? Yes.

    Are they magical? No.

Therefore they benefit from either Poison (base Assassin), Manbane, Dark Venom or Black Lotus. Dark Venom doesn't matter as it mentions Challenges - but the other 3 toxins still affect his ranged attacks.

Now, onto the Manbane/Rending Stars question.

p.54, BRB [Big Red Book/WHFB Rulebook]:

"Some weapons give thier wielder's a Strength bonus in close combat or when shooting. This is clearly indicated in the weapons profile. For example, a halberd has a +1 Strength bonus, so if used in close combat by a warrior with a strength of 3, any hits caused are resolved with a Strength of 4. Note that this Strength bonus only applies when the warrior is using the weapon - his strength characteristic remains unchanged for other purposes."

Clear as crystal. The weapon is Strength +1, not the user. So a basic assassin with Rending Stars is still only Strength 4, even though his Rending Stars are resolved at Strength 5, the stars don't secretly inject steroids/spinach into him!

Now, onto Manbane...

p.99, Warhammer Armies: Dark Elves:

"A model with a weapon coated with Manbane always counts thier Strength as one higher than thier target's Toughness, unless thier Strength would normally be more than this, up to a maximum of Strength 6. This means that they almost always wound opponents on a roll of 3+. This modified Strength is used to calculate armour save modifiers."

Black and White, it modifies his Strength, not his "wounding hits" or "his attacks" but literally "thier Strength".

There is no debate, or even discussion to be had here - Manbane makes his strength higher - and the Rending Stars simply +1 to this value for the purposes of his shooting.

Arguing otherwise is simply nonsense to be honest.


Ignore the other language except the quotes as they were directed at someone else - I couldn't be bothered to snip it.

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Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:26 am
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THANK YOU

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Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:28 am
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Yep, no facts until the official FAQ eventually gives an official ruling, but for now Milney's argument is the only way to go.

Manbane changes the model's Strength, while Rending Stars add to the model's Strength, therefore Manbane is added before Rending Stars.

Rending Stars strike with S+1
S becomes (target's T+1; max 6) from Manbane
So Rending Stars S+1 is (target's T+1; max 6)+1 or target's T+2; max 7

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Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:23 pm
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Thankyou. Big help to actually decide an answer until it is FAQd


Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:34 pm
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thanks a lot for your clear clarification Milney, makes me happy to know we can, legally, have S7 trowing stars :D

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Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:37 pm
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I'm convinced now it works. Did you actually think about becoming a lawyer? ;)


Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:56 pm
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No you see his argument makes since instead of confusing you until you start stabbing your eyes to make the brain hurting stop. Well done milney I may have to copy and paste that on warseer.

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Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:28 pm
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hantu wrote:
I'm convinced now it works. Did you actually think about becoming a lawyer? ;)


I was actually a Law Student before I changed my discipline to Biology :lol:

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Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:40 pm
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Quote:
The playtesters (Dark Alliance in particular) played as if it stacked. That is enough for me.


I'd accept that, and I think by the wording they're S7, but not all the playtesters played it like that. Some used the maximum S6.

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Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:16 pm
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DA might have played it as if it stacked, but Voodoomaster didn't :D

Also, the way I read it, and I've gotten a lot of agreement for this is:
Rending Stars: Strength as user.
Manbane: Always count their strength as one higher than ...
The word "always" in the Manbane rules trumps the wording in the rules for Rending Stars.

Also, the Dwarf Slayers have a similar rule. They get a strength equal to the target's toughness unless their normal strength would be greater. Hence, a str3 slayer with Great Weapon has str5. Against a toughness 4 target, he has strength 5. Against a toughness 6 target, he has strength 6. Not 8. The manbane/Stars combo was supposed to work in the same way.

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Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:24 pm
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Yes, when you throw Rending Stars with Manbane Poison, they are always at S6 for the Formulae.

But guess what... Rending Stars are S+1.

S6+1 = 7!

The 'Always' Part doesn't matter, once you insert the S value into the formulae, it increases. So the poison strikes at S6 and the stars strike at one more S.


Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:38 pm
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Assasin strength: 4
Rending stars adds +1. That's 5.
If 5 isn't wounding on 3+ or better, the Manbane will bump it to str6.

Of all of you who say manbane is added first, where do you get that fact from?

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Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:47 pm
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Meh, honestly, lets just wait for a FAQ.


Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:22 pm
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Because Manbane modifies the model's Strength, Rending Stars use the model's Strength to calculate their own Strength; before you can figure that out, you need to know the model's Strength, and that is the target's Toughness plus one (max 6).

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Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:23 pm
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Thanee, I would agree if it wasn't for the word "always" in the Manbane rules, the intentions from the designers, and the Dwarf slayers :)
Also, Rending Stars were designed as "user's base strength +1", but the word "base" was mysteriously missing in the final edit of the rules.

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Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:41 pm
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Quote:
Of all of you who say manbane is added first, where do you get that fact from?


OK then here goes!

Q What is the strength of the attack?
A Stars make it user plus one
Q what is the strength of the user
A Targets toughness plus one while using manbane

You cant determine the strength of the stars without referring to the strength of the user.

Its also worth pointing out that manbane affects the strength of the user while the stars affect the steength of the attack. These are different things and should never conflict.


Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:47 pm
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Nagathi read the quotes. Your arguments are not only based on really, really shaky grounds (the grammar of the phrasing, not the letters) but are also ignoring the covenent of "RAW" that GW outlined.

"his strength characteristic remains unchanged for other purposes"; p.54 BRB.

End of.

At least pose an argument for why they wouldn't stack (other than "S7 Throwing stars are unrealistic") so we can actually hold a discussion.

Now a FAQ might disallow the stacking, but this is not because the rules don't support it - the RAW does and arguing otherwise is an exercise in futility - it would simply be a call from the designers not wanting S7 throwing weapons.

Edit: Also the Dwarf example you give is nonsense. Army Books trump BRB for specific examples (and exceptions) and the "Slayer" rule explicitly includes modifiers for weapons used (p.33 Warhammer Armies: Dwarves), where Manbane does not - hence we revert to the BRB and as such S7 stars are back in.

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Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:23 pm
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After my edit I decided to outline the significant difference in the wording of Manbane and Slayer rules so that those without access to either book can see why the argument presented against stacking falls flat.

First, the Toxin that we all know and love:

p.99, Warhammer Armies: Dark Elves:

"A model with a weapon coated with Manbane always counts thier Strength as one higher than thier target's Toughness, unless thier Strength would normally be more than this, up to a maximum of Strength 6. This means that they almost always wound opponents on a roll of 3+. This modified Strength is used to calculate armour save modifiers."

Now, the ominous "Slayer" rules:

p.33, Warhammer Armies: Dwarves:

"All Slayers have an uncanny ability that makes them particularly effective against especially tough opponents. When rolling to wound, a Slayer's Strength, including any modifiers for weapons (eg, a great axe), is increased until it is equal to the Toughness of his opponent, up to a maximum of Strength 6. If the opponent's Toughness is lower than the Slayer's Strength, including any additional modifiers for weapons, the Slayer does not recieve any Strength bonus."

The two rules are massively different. For a start, should the opponent have an item (or rule) which required the attacking model to pass a Strength test before attacking, an Assassin with Manbane is allowed to use his increased strength for the test (as it is modified before hits or wounds) whereas a Slayer cannot as his Strength bonus is only added for the purposes of rolling to wound.

Not to mention the most important part - the Slayer rule explicitly covers weapon bonuses and was written in 6th Edition. The new Manbane was written in 7th Edition and fails to mention weapon bonuses despite the addition of a weapon which gives such a bonus.

Clearly the rules (whilst giving a similar effect) are massively different, and the wording reflects this. Referencing trumps assumption.

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Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:40 pm
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Er, you don't count Manbane Strength when you have to take yourself the Strength test, that's like saying Executioners count their Great Weapons when it comes to S tests.

Manbane is a weapon, not a strength bonus to the assassin himself.

Milney, I think you're stretching the words a bit too far on this!
Though I can agree with the Manbane on stars and then add +1 to it for S7 against T5/6 - I strongly disagree on the S value being changed on the profile using Manbane.


Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:44 pm
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