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Shadowblade And Poison/Toxin Combined Effect Argument
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Author:  Right hand of khaine [ Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Shadowblade And Poison/Toxin Combined Effect Argument

All normal assassins have the Poisoned Attacks special rule representing that their weapons are coated in a particular type of poison that produces a certain effect. Whilst this is a standard rule for assassins, they have the option to instead use a 'toxin'. That the chosen toxin replaces the poison makes sense therefore because the assassin has the option of replacing it or not.

Shadowblade however does not have this option, but yet he still has both Poisoned Attacks and Dark Venom in his rules list. If the Dark Venom replaced his Poisoned Attacks, then there would be no need to include the latter rule in his profile, as it is only included in the normal assassin's profile because you have the choice as to which you take.

Therefore it seems logical that Shadowblade has both the Poisoned Attacks and Dark Venom rule, or at least uses the prior under normal combat circumstances and the latter in a challenge.

Actually, there is no reason why Poison and Toxins could not both be used in reality as they are not the same thing.

I will ask GW about this, but I see there being a potential loophole here otherwise. I know which way I would prefer it ;-)

...but what do you think?

Right Hand Of Khaine

Author:  Milney [ Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:33 pm ]
Post subject: 

As far as RAW is concerned, having both on the profile is a non-issue as the Toxin rules override any mixing.

Whether this is intended or not I don't know, but personally I'd rather he didn't have poisoned attacks as well as Dark Venom.

Shadowblade has become considerably weaker from his 6th Edition incarnation (with good reason!) and now in order to fill his role as a murderer of enemy generals he really needs to get a killing blow in. Unfortunately a 'lucky' poison removes one of his 4 chances at getting this - limiting his character killing potential somewhat. In my test games with him this has actually led to me failing to complete his "objective" as they easily pass the S4 poison save, where the KB would have been more useful for my goals.

Anyway, I voted No, simply from RAW. If GW intended these to stack they'll announce it in any FAQ released.

Author:  Fr0 [ Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shadowblade And Poison/Toxin Combined Effect Argument

You don't have a choice in the upgrade, so you're not replacing anything. He benefits from both types, and is the exception to the rule.

Author:  Milney [ Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shadowblade And Poison/Toxin Combined Effect Argument

Fr0 wrote:
You don't have a choice in the upgrade, so you're not replacing anything. He benefits from both types, and is the exception to the rule.


Exception? Unless you can find me a peice of RAW saying that he ignores the "Toxin" rules from the Gifts of Khaine, then he simply has Dark Venom as per the rules.

Just because he has both listed, does not mean he automatically benefits from both (contradicting the rules). It's merely a throwback to when they copy/pasted his unit entry from the Assassins one.

Author:  Crawd [ Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:53 am ]
Post subject: 

For now, he can't use both toxins because of the rules that says that one of the 3 toxins overrides the Poisoned Attacks. Unless the FAQ says otherwise, you can't assume that it's not how it was intended.

Because it's like the Ethereal Horses of the VC that has the Barding.. People thought that Ethereal cancel the barding penalty but it doesn't.

So unless the FAQ is out telling if you can use both, just don't care about the Poisoned Attacks.

Author:  Thanee [ Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:38 am ]
Post subject: 

Agreed. The text under the Toxins headline definitely applies to Shadowblade as well.

It says "may be coated with", though, so maybe he has the choice of using Dark Venom or not (before the game).

Of course, that could just refer to buying it or not (which he doesn't really have a choice about).


He still has a very decent chance of killing an opposing general with his 4 hatred WS10 S7 KB attacks.

Bye
Thanee

Author:  Nagathi [ Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:47 pm ]
Post subject: 

Thanee mentioned a very good thing there. Unlike magical close combat weapons, one is not forced to use the Toxin. Even if the intention is that he should benefit from both, the rules as written says that if he uses Toxins, he won't count as poisoned. But it also says that Dark Venom is optional to use (in a way). And thus he could get away with only using the normal poison and no Dark venom for the game.

~ Nag

Author:  Fr0 [ Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:09 pm ]
Post subject: 

So, since he has them all he can decide when to use them, right? Seems to me that the intention is for him to be able to use different poisons. Using them all at once is clearly OP, however switching them depending on the situation, to me seems how he was intended to be used.

Author:  Thanee [ Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:35 pm ]
Post subject: 

Well, the only choice would be to use one or the other for the whole game IMHO.

Bye
Thanee

Author:  Nagathi [ Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:13 pm ]
Post subject: 

Yeah, I don't think one can un-coat a weapon's poison.

~ Nag

Author:  Ampao [ Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:36 pm ]
Post subject: 

Im guessing/voting no. The only reason (that I can think of) that GW would still add the "poisoned attacks" to the stats is because it comes mandatory with each and every assassin.

Same way that regular warriors have a BS even if they dont have repeaters.

Author:  Dggrj [ Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:15 pm ]
Post subject: 

I'm betting Shadowblade has plenty of daggers on his person, more than enough to coat different ones with varying types of weapons.

But at 300 points and 4 attacks, I don't see this mattering much. I never got around to fielding the old version, though I wanted to, but now.. I think he, Tullaris, and Kouran have all been neutered beyond what I'd take - much to my disappointment :(

Author:  Fr0 [ Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:15 pm ]
Post subject: 

Hmm, well the question is then when would you have to decide what toxins he's using? The first round of combat that he's revealed? I mean it doesn't say that you can't switch, it just says that he has multiple kinds.

Author:  Dggrj [ Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:16 pm ]
Post subject: 

Base it on Mordheim style rules, maybe? Declare at the start of each combat, can't switch mid-combat?

Author:  Ampao [ Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shadowblade And Poison/Toxin Combined Effect Argument

Right Hand Of Khaine wrote:
If the Dark Venom replaced his Poisoned Attacks, then there would be no need to include the latter rule in his profile, as it is only included in the normal assassin's profile because you have the choice as to which you take.Right Hand Of Khaine


They included it to remain consistent with the Assassin's profile.

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