Bladewind

[Dark Alliance]

So are you saying then, that a Sorceress in combat can cast magic missiles because she is riding a dragon, and therefore is above the models in front of her??

[Dggrj]

As for losing hw/shield bonus coz you wanna attack to the side...utter tosh mate!!

Here is the BRB quote on HW&Shield, I didn't have it in front of me before, but I think this makes it UNEQUIVOCALLY clear that they will not get the bonus (emphasis mine):

If a warrior on foot fights with a hand weapon and shield, he may increase his armour save by a further +1 in close combat against enemeis fighting from his front. So, for example, if he has a shield, light armour, and a sword, his armour save is increased from 5+ to 4+ when fighting in close combat.

This only applies in close combat, not against wounds suffered from shooting, magic, or other means.

Also, this only applies against opponents engaged to the model's front, not against foes fighting in the model's flank or rear.

No one is engaged, there are no models fighting them on any side, they are not fighting back on any side, and this is magic. They are close combat attacks for the purposes of rolling to hit and wound, but no in is actually in close combat.

No HW&Sh bonus.

[Silverheimdall]

So are you saying then, that a Sorceress in combat can cast magic missiles because she is riding a dragon, and therefore is above the models in front of her??

No because the rules for Magic Missiles are clear: even if not part of the combat but your unit is in close combat, you cannot cast them.

Please go read the rules.

You still draw Line of Sight and so you can cast spells that are not magic missiles but require Line of Sight.

Orcs have had a spell that causes a WS3 ST4 attack on every model in a unit for a long time, but I have never heard this discussion with them. I have always played that they dont get parry bonus as it is not in close combat. Nothing is in the O&G FAQ on it either.

No, that spell is NOT in any way similar and it is not WS3.
The Fists of Gork I believe, are 1 hit on every model of the unit (even champs and chars) that will hit on a 4+ (no WS) and are at S4, they are not defined as 'Close combat attacks' in any way like the Bladewind spell.

[Dark Alliance]

I think you should read the rules. Nowhere does it state that being on a dragon maintains your los for casting spells...

[Silverheimdall]

Err nothing mentions you LOSE line of sight for being in close combat. Unless you can point out to me to the part of the rulebook I've been missing that says any model in close combat has no Line of Sight anymore?
(btw I don't really care about Bladewind and killing blow, just wanted to see what people thought about the possibility)

[Mordru]

On the LoS issue, large target casters LoS is not blocked by non large target combatants in close combat. Kippers and other greater daemons, Tzeentch lords on discs, Sorceresses on Dragons can still cast spells requiring line of sight. There is nothing in the rules that says LoS is blocked for large targets if they are in combat. I recently realized this fact. Logically, large target casters should even be able to rain magic missiles down on their hth opponents but this is not allowed in the rules. Magic Missiles are a seperate issue from other spells requiring LoS.


Regarding the Killing Blow/Bladewind issue. It is pretty simple to follow the rule that if it seems too good to be true it probably is to good to be true. Bladewind is bothersome enough as an unsual game mechanic without trying to shoe horn killing blow into the mix. Blade wind attacks are treated as close combat attacks but they do not occur in close combat so no killing blow. No killing blow for RBTs, RXB units in the shooting phase and no killing blow in the magic phase.

[Crawd]

Blade wind attacks are treated as close combat attacks but they do not occur in close combat so no killing blow. No killing blow for RBTs, RXB units in the shooting phase and no killing blow in the magic phase.

Magic Missiles, RBT and RXB can't be affected with KB unless the Cauldron would have said so. However, as I quoted before and no one showed a prouf that shows otherwise.

Bladewind isn't a magic missile, it's a spell that does close combat attacks. KB provide it's power in close combat, it doesn't say in Close Combat Phase, it clearly said: "Close Combat" and I even quoted the rule in my previous post.

Now show me that Bladewind isn't a close combat attacks, since it's clearly said in the spell description. Because by the RAW, bladewind can be affected by KB if the Cauldron gives the KB power to the Sorceress.

Bladewind isn't a magic missile, it is close combat attacks, otherwise you would have to randomize like shooting and it's not the case.

Yes, I agree that may not be intended but unless there's an FAQ that says otherwise, the RAW shows that KB works on Bladewind.

[Mordru]

@ Crawd

Please take a close look at your postition and reveiw all the relevant rules.

DE Army Book Pg 51 Cauldron of Blood rules;
"Stength of Khaine: All models in the unit gain killing blow in close combat."

BRB Pg 95 Killing Blow rules;

"When a model with the killing blow special rule rolls a 6 to wound when rolling to wound in close combat...."

Later in the same location "Rarely some models may have the ability of using killing blow with ranged attacks ..... when this is the case, it will be clearly specified in their special rules in the relevant Army Book..."

One again as others have said, the sorceress is not in close combat so giving her killing blow has no effect on her casting spellls. Blade wind or otherwise. You simply find no support for the position that a ranged attack with killing blow is "clearly specified in her special rules or the Cauldron's. By your interpretation, you will be compelled to say that the Cauldron also gives the Sorceresses casting Bladewind +1 attack if that blessing is chosen in stead of killing blow. Using your same logic she casts Bladewind and gets 3d6 +1 close combat attacks. Your position is just not supported by the rules RAW or otherwise.

[Crawd]

DE Army Book Pg 51 Cauldron of Blood rules;
"Stength of Khaine: All models in the unit gain killing blow in close combat."

"When a model with the killing blow special rule rolls a 6 to wound when rolling to wound in close combat...."

Later in the same location "Rarely some models may have the ability of using killing blow with ranged attacks ..... when this is the case, it will be clearly specified in their special rules in the relevant Army Book..."

Bladewind description is about close combat attacks and all your quote are about close combat attacks, not attacks in Combat Phase though.

Bladewind isn't a ranged attacks since in the spell description it says that it's "Close Combat Attacks" so you can't assume they are ranged attack.

Sure the sorceress isn't in base to base but Bladewind doesn't count as a Magic Missile.

Edit: By taking your logic, you treat Bladewind as a ranged attack but you wouldn't do the shooting randomization. That doesn't make sens neither.

[Delhien]

The hand weapon and shield bonus applies in close combat. The BW is resolved as close combat attacks. Isnt there a difference between "close combat attacks" and "close combat"? Like one is a phase and the other is a mather of striking.

[Calisson]

The hand weapon and shield bonus applies in close combat. The BW is resolved as close combat attacks. Isnt there a difference between "close combat attacks" and "close combat"? Like one is a phase and the other is a matter of striking.

The hand weapon and shield bonus applies in close combat...
- but not against magic,
- and only against opponents engaged in the front.

Here, we're talking about magic, and nobody is engaging anyone.

Until FAQ'ed, I believe RAW supports NOT allowing the +2 shield bonus.

Now for the CoB Killing Blow issue, in the French Army Book, they mention that CoB grants KB in HtH. They do not mention for HtH attacks, they mention in HtH.
Bladewind inflicts HtH attacks. It is a magical attack, not a HtH attack. I cannot support it giving KB.



For the overall argumentation seen in this thread,

Either
- Bladewing is magic, not real HtH, so no KB nor +2 shield save

or
- Bladewing is HtH, so both KB and +2 shield save apply

I support that Bladewing is magic.
But I undestand that the opposite opinion has some arguments.
Definitely, a FAQ is needed on that.
Unfortunately, the FAQ thread has been locked.

What I would find very strange would be
- opinions that KB would apply but not +2 shield save,
- or that +2 shield save would apply but not KB.

[Crawd]

I speak French and I always buy my books in English because some traductions aren't clear or well said... example: the Crimson Death from the German version.

The hand weapon and shield bonus applies in close combat...
- but not against magic,
- and only against opponents engaged in the front.

Good point about the "only against opponents engaged".

for the KB, nothing in the English rulebook state: "hand to hand combat" for Killing blow, it's only about close combats.

Also, you can't say that "magical attacks" doesn't work for KB, because Wight Blades and Tomb Blades are magical attacks with KB, just like most magical weapon that gives KB. So telling that magical attack isn't a close combat attack, isn't a good reason.

If you would have told me that it was a ranged attack, like a Magic Missiles or a Bow, I would agree, but they are close combat attacks.

I guess that question deserve a FAQ because we can basicly show both side. If the FAQ says that it doesn't work, it won't. Just like the Helm of Command VS Blinding Light for the VC and the Helm won.

[Phierlihy]

My local store has contacted GW about Bladewind because tihs spell has so many holes in it, it's silly. As it stands right now, if I cast Bladewind against a target on a dragon, one hit goes to the rider and the rest to the dragon. If I cast it on a lone character, only one single hit goes to the character and the rest disappear. If I cast this spell against a Rat Ogres, can I just kill the Packmasters? Or if I cast it against a Salamander unit, can I just target the Salamanders? The local GW folks tossed the spell around and everyone had a different oppinion so it's gone up one level of support. For now they told us to assign everyone in the unit an equal number of hits and any left over can be assigned as you wish. For example, a unit of three IronGuts and a Butcher suffer 15 hits from Bladewind. Each model would take three hits leaving three more left over to be assigned and only one of which could be assigned to the Butcher. Hope that makes sense. They agreed it's an ugly compromise but that's all they have for right now.

As for Killing blow, hatred, and so on, wait for the FAQ.

[Calisson]

I speak French and I always buy my books in English because some traductions aren't clear or well said...

I may further add to the confusion as I translate back from a translation, and the only English texts I can use to support my translations are D.net and GW-uk.com
Even if the translation into French is made with a professional quality and my own translation back to English is probably above average, I am sure to miss some points.
Example: do you make any difference between "hand to hand" and "close combat"? In my mind, both can be translated into "corps à corps". Did I goofed my translation?

[Crawd]

Don't worry, I don't judge the translation of yours, I understand the problematic with your example.

phierlihy pointed out a good point.. the spell has so many holes so I guess, as he suggested, the best thing to do is don't abuse any of them and wait for the FAQ.

[Mordru]

DE Army Book Pg 51 Cauldron of Blood rules;
"Stength of Khaine: All models in the unit gain killing blow in close combat."

"When a model with the killing blow special rule rolls a 6 to wound when rolling to wound in close combat...."

Later in the same location "Rarely some models may have the ability of using killing blow with ranged attacks ..... when this is the case, it will be clearly specified in their special rules in the relevant Army Book..."

Bladewind description is about close combat attacks and all your quote are about close combat attacks, not attacks in Combat Phase though.

Bladewind isn't a ranged attacks since in the spell description it says that it's "Close Combat Attacks" so you can't assume they are ranged attack.

Sure the sorceress isn't in base to base but Bladewind doesn't count as a Magic Missile.

Edit: By taking your logic, you treat Bladewind as a ranged attack but you wouldn't do the shooting randomization. That doesn't make sens neither.

What doesn't make sense is the comparision to shooting. Bladewind has specific language directing how to allocate the attacks. Although poorly written, this language deviates from normal shooting randomization. The issue of shooting randomization does not support your conclusion.

Clearly it is not a magic missile, clearly it is not randomized according to normal ranged hits it is rather allocated as close combat attacks with limits on characters and champions. Nothing in the Blade Wind description supports your contention that the sorceress is treated as being in close combat with the target which is when killing blow applies.

I ask again, does your interrpretation not in fact require you to take the position that the Cauldron could also grant +1 attack to the sorceress casting the Blade Wind spell yieldiong then 3d6+1 attacks.

That is the issue you need to address to resolve this matter. IMO, there is no basis for either assuming she gets blade wind with killing blow or +1 attack. Both gifts apply from the same source, in the same manner, to the same spell in our current discussion. For your position to be consistent both would apply and in fact neither applies.

[Crawd]

I ask again, does your interrpretation not in fact require you to take the position that the Cauldron could also grant +1 attack to the sorceress casting the Blade Wind spell yieldiong then 3d6+1 attacks.

I didn't answer to that because I don't have access to my book right now.

That is the issue you need to address to resolve this matter. IMO, there is no basis for either assuming she gets blade wind with killing blow or +1 attack. Both gifts apply from the same source, in the same manner, to the same spell in our current discussion. For your position to be consistent both would apply and in fact neither applies.

Like I said in my last post, let's wait for the FAQ because it's really useless to debate, because you don't even want to understand my point of view.

[Getwisteerd]

It's not the sorceress attacking, it's the spell attacking. You don't use the sorceress' strength, attack or weapon skill values either, so you won't benefit from the sorceress' killing blow

[Dggrj]

The hand weapon and shield bonus applies in close combat. The BW is resolved as close combat attacks. Isnt there a difference between "close combat attacks" and "close combat"? Like one is a phase and the other is a matter of striking.

The hand weapon and shield bonus applies in close combat...
- but not against magic,
- and only against opponents engaged in the front.

Here, we're talking about magic, and nobody is engaging anyone.

Until FAQ'ed, I believe RAW supports NOT allowing the +2 shield bonus.

Thank you for supporting this, Calisson. It seems my post on it, which I maintain was crystal clear, did not carry the weight or import that you can
Really though, it's magic, so I don't even think we're being rules-lawyers or taking the spirit out of the game.
And I would say you've made quite a name for yourself here recently, so I commend you!

[Thanee]

For the record... my opinion on these issues...

No HW+Shield bonus against Bladewind, as the models are not in close combat. See dggrj post from Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:38 am for explanation.

And the Dragon Sorceress of course has LOS over a unit she is in combat with, unless the unit is also large, because she is a large target.

Bye
Thanee

[Danceman]

No HW+Shield bonus against Bladewind, as the models are not in close combat.

So how do these close combat WS4 S4(?) attacks strike, if not in combat? Oh, its magic... but then you cant strike either, or?

As for the killing blow arugment. Is the sorceress actually using her attacks, at all? No, she isnt. So how are you going to justify having killing blow on these attacks. It isnt her attacking, no hatred, no KB, no nothing. You get what is said in the description of the spell. If you want to push extra advantages that arent there, of course you need a "FAQ".

It is close combat attacks. Are they made in the flank/rear? No, nothing is said about that. Are they mentioned just as close combat attacks, indeed they are. Can you use HW + Shield in close combat, yes you can. You can try the "it's magic argument" over and over but the spell still clearly describe the attacks as close combat attacks. Again, if it isnt clear. The sorceress herself are not making these attacks herself. She has her own profile and the attacks generated has their own.

[Thanee]

The question is not whether it's magic, but rather that the target isn't engaged by anyone.

Bye
Thanee

[Gastronauticon]

Regarding KB and hatred: Getwisted and danceman already said it. The little word model.


Is Bladewind a model?!

Is the wizard a model?

Go figure.

Rork edit: The report function exists for any issues you might have.

[The_reckoning]

The rule for hand weapons and shields states, "This only applies in close combat, not against wounds suffered from shooting, magic, or other means."

Bladewind inflicts close combat attacks but it is still MAGIC, which means that you cannot include the hand weapon and shield bonus.

Emphasis is mine. Tell me, is Bladewind magic? Yes or no.

The answer is yes. Therefore, you cannot add a bonus for hand weapon and shield.

By the same logic, the Tomb King's Incantation of Smiting would work the same way.

[Gibious]

But does the O&G spell say inflict close combat?

By looking at the casting price i recon its the worst of the 3

-The sorceress is not delivering the blow, so no hatred of COB bonus
-They ARE still though CC attacks from floating swords, that can be parried from H+S as normal as being parried by WS

Its 3d6 S4 on an 8+ cast, it shouldnt realy be even more overkill