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Cult of Slaanesh rewrite discussion 
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I would also recommend A or B...

Also I disagree with Valeron, Dalamar, your input so far has been invaluable!


Sorry for long time no post... I've been busy with uni preparation and stuff, but I've been doing a lot of thinking, I will post a lot more this weekend =P

Also Weeneth yes it can be done! If you have the time, you can do it now, or I can do it on sunday or saturday when I get a bit of free time...


Rock on guys! Slaanesh is with us!

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Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:32 pm
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While I am certainly interested in what you guys produce I thought a comment on these remarks was needed.

Dalamar wrote:
Druchii do not ally themselves with Chaos.
That SoC list is a butchering of fluff.
Even its own fluff to be honest
Morathi used the chaos warriors/daemons to server her. She did not suddenly gain mark of her tool and servant, yet in the rules she has... and all her sorceresses became equally marked. I mean WTH?
Cult of Pleasure =! Cult of Slaanesh
GW made a booboo on that one for Storm of Chaos.


As I am sure everyone remembers the concept of Dark Elves pretty much shows the influence of Slaanesh. The original Chaos army list had Dark Elves as standard foot troops for Slaanesh. The original Dark Elf magic was Summoning Demons.

The difference between HE and DE is that a HE remains alof from his/her emotions where a DE has embraced his/her emotions. Warhammer DE's are very much a creation of Slaanesh.

Over the editions the fluff has changed to move them away from worshiping Slaanesh.

On a seperate note I would like to see the creation of the Cult of Slaanesh as part of a Dark Elf civil war suppliment and not as a way to get Annointed. Background design, army lists, magic items, scenarios etc etc. Perfect back ground for a Slaanesh -v- Khaine civil war suppliment.

Much more fun then just getting new toys.

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Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:38 am
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Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster here...

I've been watching this thread unfold with some interest, primarily with the arguments over the fluff, i.e. Slaanesh worship has been retconned out of 7th ed. and now Druchii tend to worship from only within their own pantheon, in this case Athari...

Now, i've been into Warhammer for a long time (since around '92), and the underground worship of Slaanesh (in some form) has been consistent fluff within Druchii society until this edition of the game. Morathi has always had a soft spot for She Who Thirsts, and she seems to have spread this worship covertly throughout her sorceresses to a limited amount of society, i'd assume that this would be primarily nobles as well.

I can easily accept, infact embrace, the idea that the Druchii would only worship from within their own pantheon, and I see how Gav's thoughts are working by trying to move away from the Slaaneshi worship. It's all a case of gaining a distinct pantheon for the elves, rather than worshiping Khaine as an aspect of Khorne, and Athari as an aspect of Slaanesh yadda yadda. I mean, that particular argument has been going on since the Sundering, hehe...

So, accepting that this is the way GW are going, how do we create a fluffy Slaanesh list?

walkerd wrote:
Over the editions the fluff has changed to move them away from worshiping Slaanesh.

On a seperate note I would like to see the creation of the Cult of Slaanesh as part of a Dark Elf civil war suppliment and not as a way to get Annointed. Background design, army lists, magic items, scenarios etc etc. Perfect back ground for a Slaanesh -v- Khaine civil war suppliment.

Much more fun then just getting new toys.


There's your answer to my previous question...

I personally relish the idea of a sub-section of Druuchi society acting to further Athari's (or Slaaneshi) ideas and displant the cult of Khaine as the primary power in Nagaroth, and going around gleefully performing depravations that would make the Marquis de Sade blush...

However, I do think that there should be a major limit as to demons/Chaos Warriors/mutations, and that the list should be primarily Druchii if it is going to be a Slaanesh list.

I'm more in favour of putting together some kind of Athari list, just to make it more compliant with GWs current fluff, but that's just me. I'll help out with either list depending on how you guys want to proceed.

Ed

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Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:06 pm
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Hello to all fellow Druchii!

New to Druchii.net, but while not a member I had a look at your project and really love it!!!

I never got the chance to actually play the original Cult, and don’t really know the official background, but like what I’ve heard of it.

Seems like a great opportunity to remove some of the stronger DE stuff, Black Guard, Hydra, Pendant etcetera and add some varied and cool Demons to the force!

Plus, if its all player tested and written, our result has got to be good!

I’d like to participate and volunteer to collate some of the stuff coming in from various people as they contribute and do a bit of editing. This will take the form of a Word Document with all of the written stuff put in a logical order.

Not really up to the designing of everything (eg borders, army list fonts etc.) but can get all the stuff in a good format.

Also, I’ve had plenty of ideas, that will be posted in following posts.

There should be separate sub-teams working on each area of our book (background, rules, artwork etc.) but there MOST CERTAINLY needs to be inter-team communication, as this seems to be slightly lacking at GW (fluff to rules as an example).

MA

Would also like to notify the project leader (Heat 13 I believe) that if this is to be all great and put on the internet and stuff, someone has to get permission from Games Workshop I’d think, or else we’ll get legally stuffed for using their trademarks and stuff. All we need is for them to say they’re happy to let us make a little bit of extra material based on their system. And then once it explodes, we’ll make them beg for the right to make the Cult official!!!

Really love the idea and happy to contribute (will have heaps of time in holidays) but just think we should get a bit of authorization before anything is published, but lets get the project happening and show GW how to write a balanced, interesting, fluffy, packed full of cool extra’s and reader writer army book!!

#####
As part of the project, I came up with a bit of an idea for what the contents page might look like:

Introduction p x
The Cult Of Slaanesh: Origins and Annals (Background) p x
Soldiers Of The Sect (Bestiary, Rule Listings) p x
Legions Of Excess (Photo Gallery and Modelling) p x
Religious Relics (Magic Items, Demonic Gifts) p x
The Faithful Assembly (Army List) p x
Demons And Dice (Tactics) p x
The Cult Kills For Pleasure (Battle Reports) px
Cult Versus Khaine (Sample Campaign Material) p x
Reference And Credits p x

All of the usual stuff is their (intro, background, gallery, bestiary, army list, magic items, credits) but I also really want to see an army book with a decent tactics article (more than about 2 pages, and a bit more than the obvious) and as waldren suggested, some example stuff as part of a Slaanesh cult vs Khaine DE campaign would be really awesome. Plus a couple of battle reports because they’re cool, they show the Cult in action and I don’t know that the Slaaneshi fanatics will make it into too many White Dwarves…

You’ll notice that I have included a gallery area. This means we need some keen modelers and army painters to get out their and give us some photos of stuff they’ve done. Once we start getting some serious rules and fluff happening, we’ll need some volunteers to do the painting and converting some cool Slaaneshi type Cauldron of Bloods and similar.

Volunteers will also be required to play and record the battle reports.

So that’s what should be in the book in my opinion, but any more ideas are certainly worthy of consideration.

#####

I’ve had plenty of ideas on the new Cult, but as we seem to all agree that Fluff-Rules equality is essential, I will start with what my idea for the Cult should be. Note that I didn’t get to read lots of the original fluff, so this is just what I perceive it should be like.

I see the Cult as being a sort of typical underground Cult, shunned by orthodox DE as they worship Khaine and stuff, but this cult is essentially Slaanesh being worshipped by Dark Elves. Even if under another guise (like the cult of pleasure) it is still Slaanesh that is being worshipped.

I see the Cult army on the battlefield as being simply another factor of Slaanesh’s plans, an army that he has sent to fight for whatever reason. He does this through the sorceress’s (explained later). Either that or it is the Cult independently deciding to go raiding for more wealth for their Cult Temple or something.

As has already been pointed out, it seems most people agree that most Dark Elves would not willingly submit to having a Mark of Slaanesh imprinted on their flesh as they are very haughty and would not like the idea of total obedience to a god and an obvious mark appealing at all. Plus, they are an underground cult and that sort of mark could make them targets.
So I see regular DE coming to the Cult and worshipping Slaanesh but not wanting to get TOO dedicated to Slaanesh and need a way out in case things turn bad. This is done through the Cult Sorceresses. Essentially, the Cult Sorceresses/Leaders/Priestesses ARE actually dedicated to Slaanesh and have Marks (powerful enough to avoid hassles from other DE and able to stay underground generally). The other Dark Elves can then join the cult, and worship Slaanesh but without having any Marks and with the option to desert and let the Sorceresses take the fall. Slaanesh knows all this, and so uses the Sorceresses (who he is actually able to influence) to control all the other Dark Elves in the cult. Slaanesh allows this sort of back-door option to the regular DE as he knows their nature and sees this as the best way to deal with it and expand his following, despite the non-total committal nature of it.
The other benefit of this marriage is that the Cult’s Sorceresses can summon Slaaneshi demons with Slaanesh’s blessing, beneficial for both the Sorceresses army (extra manpower and muscle) and Slaanesh (more of his demons running around reality).
Sorceresses can only hold the demons in reality for a short space of time though due to the massive energy it requires, an intrinsic positive for Slaanesh as it means no one from the Dark Elves is going to gain more than a temporary power over some of his subjects.

So, that is my view of the direction the Cult of Slaanesh should be sort of heading in, and think its quite good. It allows all Slaaneshi Demons, no chaos mortals, leaves a little middleground for Anointed and suchlike and gives a justification for regular DE soldiers joining the cult.

Anyone else want to use this as our general background idea?

#####

As I said, I have some pretty cool (I think) ideas for the Cult based on my previous background summary thing. So here is a few of my ideas (that fit with the fluff outlined):
• Army general must be a High Sorceress/Sorceress and must have Mark Of Slaanesh.
• As the Slaaneshi demons would have to be summoned to the battlefield, each Cult army would include a single/group of High Sorceress/Sorceress to act as the Army’s “Summoner(s)”. My ideas for this are: the Summoners would have to remain stationary during the game, and could stand in a “Ritual Circle” which would provide some sort of protection (maybe 3+ Ward vs shooting and magic, 5+ Ward vs combat) and have the option for an elite elf bodyguard. The total level of the Summoners involved would limit the number of points that your army could spend on Demon models. For example, a level 1 sorceress summoner would allow your army to have up to 175 (or 200?) points of demons, where a level 4 would allow a maximum of 700 (800?) points of demons. The Summoners could participate in the Magic phase, but would generate power/dispel dice equal to a level lower than themselves. Should all of the Summoners be slain, then the Daemons would begin to lose their grip on reality and disappear back to the ether. Should all Summoners be slain, then Demons would have to take a Leadership test each turn and take wounds equal to how much they failed by or possibly twice that. This is very much like TK and VC sort of style. All Summoners must have the Mark Of Slaanesh to focus Slaaneshi energy.
• As said, normal DE aren’t going to put up with a Mark, but I felt that as long as Slaanesh had some control (Sorceresses) over these uncommitted warriors, he would still give them a bit of a benefit while they serve him. I have called this “Sanction Of Slaanesh”. It doesn’t involve anything permanent, but as long as any Sorceresses with the Mark Of Slaanesh are still alive, all models with the “Sanction Of Slaanesh” gain a small bonus. My idea for this was possibly +1M, +1I and a 6+Ward. Should all Sorceresses be slain, Slaanesh knows he has lost control of his uncommitted warriors and so would revoke the sanction. This sanction would be a small upgrade (and probably compulsory) to units such as Warriors and Crossbowmen.
• Many have said that a Slaaneshi “Cauldron Of Blood” would be cool, and I totally agree with them, so I have come up with two separate ideas based on this.
1. I have called “Daemonic Acropolis”. A small shrine to Slaanesh that is overseen by a couple of attendants and is a small altar for sacrifices to Slaanesh. These sacrifices would be capture warriors from the opposite army. To go with the Acropolis would be a unit of Dark Riders or Seekers (Fast Cavalry with good Movement) who would have a special “Capture” attack where they could charge an enemy unit, and instead of fighting could capture a number of enemy models by rolling over their opponents weapon skill. The enemy could attack back before the DR/Seekers would automatically flee to safety (possibly no option to pursue). They would take their captured back to the acropolis, where they would be sacrificed. A total of sacrificed enemy would be kept, and bonuses conferred depending on the number of slain in Slaanesh’s name. If enough slain, the acropolis could maybe also cast bound spell “Supplications to the Dark Prince” (basically boundspell prayers to Slaanesh, maybe 5 of them, used also by Anointed which I will come to). Could also have a rule similar to the Cauldron Of Blood’s Altar Of Khaine (stubborn for Khainite within 12”) in that all Demons within 12” would not disintergrate even if all Summoners slain due to the Slaaneshi energy exuded from the Acropolis (maybe named “Demonic Aura”).
2. This is very similar to the Acropolis, but I named the Soul Gateway. It is very similar in the capturing of enemy respect, but instead of sacrificing enemy it would be a magical gateway to Slaaneh’s demon realm, and captured enemy thrown through it to have their soul devoured by demons. These souls would give the demons enough strength to push into the mortal realm, and thus every model thrown into the gate would produce a Slaanesh daemonette for the Cult player to control. Once enough of these Daemonettes generated, they would detach and form their own unit. This idea less likely to work with the bound spell idea, but could also work with the “Demonic Aura” idea.

These two ideas are a bit interchangeable, and may end up as one idea, or stay separate, but I would see them (and their attending hunting cavalry and attendants) as not hero upgrades like the Cauldron but as independent rare choices.
• Really liked the idea of the Druchii Anointed. Not sure of the original background to him, but having an elf that is a bit tougher than usual can’t be bad. If I’m right in saying that he was an elf that got stuck in the chaos wastes and dedicated himself to Slaanesh, than they should be strong as the chaos powers would mutate them, but need a bit of toning down from the original Cult list. I see them as maybe: M5, WS7, BS6, S5, T4, W3, I7, A4, LD9. They would most certainly actually have a Mark Of Slaanesh. There would be a possibility for them to be upgraded from a Level 0 to a Level 1 or 2 Slaanesh magic guy. They wouldn’t use Slaanesh magic, but could cast 1 or 2 “Supplications” (discussed under Daemonic Acropolis) as bound spells per turn depending on level. They could never be the general. Could have some cool mounts: Steed of Slaanesh, some sort of Slaaneshi monster etc. Could have a limited choice of new Anointed Demonic Gifts, and a limited choice of magic items. These guys should be tough, but we must prevent them becoming one figure armies through the combination of characteristics/mount/bound spells/hatred/gifts/magic items/mark etc. so some serious playtesting for a balance would have to happen their.

#####

In terms of the army composition, I think we will have to have a close look at this. Straight away, I see Witch Elves, Hags, Assassins, Executioners out the door as are all Khainite. Also gone are Black Guard, due to dedication to Malekith.

Hydra, Harpies, Furies and Cold One Knights need to be debated.

I see all Slaanesh Demons in: Keeper Of Secrets, Daemonettes, Seekers, Fiends. They would be limited by the points restriction coming from Summoners so would all be cool.

I think Anointed and one or two of my Acropolis and Soul Gateway added to the army. Also, need a more combat oriented hero, and also a daemon one. Maybe not a herald though, debate needed. I also like the ideas of some to make a Dark Pegasus rider equivalent to the Brettonian Pegasus Knigts. Maybe debate on some sort of “Devoted” too.

There are many who call for the introduction of some kind of “Slave” unit, this being the only non-elf mortal unit available. I like the idea of this, captured slaves from other races being herded into battle to waste the enemies arrows and suchlike, and envision it would work much like a Skaven rat pack. The slaves would all be at the front, with Overseers at the back, guiding the unit with their whips. The slaves would have a reasonable movement, but poor WS, S, T and I. Seeing as the slaves are chained together, I would add a rule called “Chained and Bound” meaning that the slaves and their overseers could not normally march, but also have a “Forced March” rule where the overseers were able to force the unit to march by being a bit harsh with their whips. This would cause D3/D6 casualties among the slaves (and never cause panic, they are expecting it), but would get them to march, and they’re slaves, who cares? No other model could ever join this Slave/Overseer unit (no Sacrificial Daggers here! and no kidnapping your own troops for the Demonic Acropolis or Soul Gateway.) There must be some kind of limit on these slaves though, so possibly they wouldn’t count towards your minimum Core choices, and maybe you needed a unit of warriors to buy a unit of slaves. Note: you would also not be allowed to use the Sacrificial Dagger on slaves, as they will be cheap enough (maybe 3 points each, 7 for overseers) that this will become a must do. The slaves have already lost too much blood for their sacrifice to be worth anything! There could also be a small variety of “potions” that the overseers would be able to purchase, which they could force-feed the slaves to various effect.

#####

On some of the debatable topics.

I do like the idea of Slaaneshi Cold One Knights (who could resist them). I think there could be reasonable justification for them. Either they are knights that have been turned to Slaanesh despite the loss of their feelings, as Slaanesh promises to give them power and glory or something, or instead of stimulating their bodies, he stimulates their minds!

Maybe the Cold One Knights were originally warriors that joined the Cult, and who Slaanesh saw the potential of, so negotitated with them. He gives them a "soporific musk" Very Happy which keeps the Cold Ones from killing their riders and grants them a bit of extra bulk or something, and they serve him as his elite heavy cavalry. I know that the Dark Prince generally favours quick and light stuff, but every army needs something with a bit of weight and this would be it.

There are plenty of options of stuff to do here. I could see the Stupidity rule being replaced with an "Arrogance" rule, meaning the Knights couldn't charge units thats starting points value was under half the knights starting points cost, or the introduction of a "Blood Standard" rule in which the Cold One Knights remain un-stupid as long as their Standard Bearer is alive (his blood dipped banner keeps cold ones focussed on the killing) but would mean the SB would have to be able to be individually targeted.
I see though that these knights would not be extremely common though, so maybe an 0-1 limit per 2000 pts, or only twelve cold ones allowed in an army per 2000 pts or something.

Hydras I'm not sure about. There is plenty of stuff about Hydra's coming from the mutating powers of chaos and that, but I don't see an underground cult as having the space for a large fire breathing monster.... Plenty of room for Cold Ones, sleeping Steeds of Slaanesh and some Dark Pegasi (hence the flying knights) but a Hydra....
If the cult did have a hydra, it would be influenced by Slaanesh to show up at the battlefield, and would have no beastmasters but would just run amok. To make it Slaaneshi, the breath weapon could be modified and the T and S go down in return for an increase in M along with Skirmisher and rank breaking privileges (even though no beastmasters). The Hydra would still need a bit of a price hike though, as we all agree at the moment the DE one is undercosted.

#####

Harpies and Furies I believe could both make it in, as they are very similar, and I don't see any fluff not to include them. Harpies maybe hinted at a bit Khainite, but a bit of myth isn't fact. These two troops both provide similar roles, so having both would be a bit of overkill.

I also am really keen on getting some Dark Pegasi Knights in as a Rare/Special choice. The DE army is a bit short on Rare, and Slaanesh only has one rare demon, but maybe the Shrine and Acropolis could fill some spots.

Anyway, Dark Pegasi. They just sound so cool, and with the models, awwwwww..... I can imagine a small cult stealing and fostering a few pegasi, and training the knights to ride them. They would be pretty similar to Bret Pegasus Knights but with Eternal Hatred instead of Knights vow and increased WS, I and maybe LD.

#####

From all that I and others have posted, an army is starting to form. Note: this is all still highly debatable, just getting down what we're heading towards.

Lords
High Sorc
Anointed
Keeper Of Secrets

Heroes
Sorc
Herald Of Slaanesh
<Fighty elf character>
<Priestess/Hag type>

Core
Warriors
Crossbowmen
Daemonettes
Devoted
One unit of DR or Seekers may be chosen as Core
Shades (no option for GW, Bloodshade or LA) (don't count to min core?)
Harpies/Furies (don't count to min core?)
Slave Packs (don't count to min core?)

Special
Dark Riders
Seekers Of Slaanesh
0-1 Shades (with all options)
0-1 Cold One Knights
Dark Pegasi Knights?

Rare
Bolt Throwers
Hydra?
Pegasus Knights?
Fiends
Soul Gateway and/or Demonic Acropolis

#####

After reading the Slaves thread at the top of idea, I had a few more thoughts on slaves.

Having the option to buy "Slave Screen"s for Crossbowmen (and maybe bolt throwers or in fact any unit) would be cool. The screen would count as one model, with a number of wounds equal to the number of slaves bought (3pts each). Any shooting at the unit would hit the slaves until all of the slaves were dead. Any enemy charging the crossbowmen would have (if there were any remaining) the slaves shoved into them, causing them to lose all bonuses associated with charging and causing all slaves to die as they are trampled by the charging enemy (similar to bret defensive stakes).

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Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:24 am
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MartialArtist; can you not post like that again please, if you want to add to a new post, use the edit button instead, it is at the top right hand side of the post that you made.

now i was going to do a longer post than this, but sorting out MartialArtist's posts took alot of energy out of me, so i shall make this quick, and make a more detailed post tomorrow, or sunday.

but in regards to it, wait for the new chaos book to be released first before making any calls, seeing as the old cult list was a blend of daemons mortals and dark elves it is handy to have all the old information infront of you before you start.

2nd, i suggest you check out some of the old monthlies for information regarding the cult of slaanesh, including the background for morathi's right hand woman Lonicera (Darkprincess) and the Alter of Excess.

3rd, check out some of the background in the old Flesh and Blood Forum for info on the civil war between the khainites and the slaaneshi, in a nut shell the status quo was kept in the war, but the Cult's "Victorious" armies from the south were largely destroyed, together with alot of their forces from the north, there are also some info in some of the newer heralds too.

4, NO to SLAVES seriously would you build a gun that fired 100 dollar coins a second? i am willing to help you guys on this as i explained to heat-13 in a pm, so if you want to speak with me send me a pm.

rgds
VM

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Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:58 pm
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Big sorry there to everyone and voodoo master. Bit new, big mistake to do so many consecutive posts, Anyway SO SORRY! I have learnt my lesson.

And thanks for all the help with getting up to date on the Cult. I got a bit ahead of myself and started doing all kinds of stuff, but more community input CERTAINLY required.

MA

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Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:12 am
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@Martial Artist, no worries at all, you made some very good posts, which is a nice change from the number of one liner that most double posting etc is, so don’t worry about it. Anyway, on to what I promised.

Now, let us look at this rationally here in regards to the background of the army, in truth there are two options here, one is to continue to existing background of the cult openly worshiping Slaanesh, now considering Malekith does not worship Slaanesh, and refuses to allow chaos worship at all I do not think that this is the best way to go. Personally I would go along the “new” lines, and have the Cult worshiping Atharti openly, and have her known as Slaanesh to the upper echelon of the leadership of the Cult, it would be believable for Morathi to visit these areas during times of key worship etc.

Not only does the 2nd option make it believable, if we take that route it opens up the options for half a dozen other cults devoted to worship of a single one of the dark pantheon each, which I am massively in favour for. Now, it should be noted that Dark Elves are not “Chaos” Elves and open worship of the dark gods would ruin this image, now small minorities worshiping chaos gods, is believable (at least everyone but Nurgle, seeing as Elves background wise are immune to disease) but also, in regards to Slaanesh, worshipers of it would defiantly use their power and influence to convince others to fight for their cause under a different agenda, and then pursue their own. Secrecy would be everything in this case for the cult to survive, if even the smallest hint of chaos worship came into it the Black Guard and the Executioners would descend upon them, the same for other cults.

Now, Power wise, the Cult of Pleasure is significantly weaker than the Cult of Khaine on a massive level; the Khainites have an entire city while the Cultists only have a tiny minority that support them in both a closed and open capacity. We would be looking at about 100 vs 5,000 to10,000 in terms of scale and size in a realistic setting, the Cult of Pleasure would also have limited resources, and openness due to the fact chaos worship is banned in Naggaroth.
Yes the Cult can challenge the Khainites, but not in open warfare, it is too weak for that, but in guerrilla tactics it can excel, and in this format it did excel in the civil war, and within Ulthuan itself when it was used over there.
On the battlefield I can foresee devoted and regular warriors forming the core of the army with bound daemons being used as shock troops together with noble men on Cold Ones. Shades would be scuttling around the flanks causing damage together with dark riders and finally Sorceress and Anointed providing the punch both magically and physically.
Chaos Human allies would be amalgamated into the core of the army, but the elves shouldn’t care for them that is for certain.

Hatred though, is something that would be open to debate; logically the hatred emotion would be replaced with other emotions, so those with the Mark of Slaanesh should not suffer from hatred at the same time, aside from that of the Asur of course, so those who have the mark would lose their hatred, while those who do not have the mark keep it.






Army structure wise, you would be looking at something like this

*Army General must have Mark of Slaanesh
Lords:
Anointed (Should have Dread Lord Stats [no T4, that is reserved for the King only] but can take 50pts of Daemonic Gifts in addition to his 100pts of Magic items and has a 5+ ward save) (L1 Sorcerer for XXpts?)
High Sorceress* (Must be Army General if taken)
Keeper of Secrets

Heroes:
Noble
Sorceress* (Must be Army General if no High Sorceress is present)
Exalted Champion
Herald of Slaanesh

Core:
Warriors (May take Mark of Slaanesh for +5pts but lose eternal hatred)
Repeater Crossbow Elves
1+ Cultists 5-15 (Skirmishing Witch Elves, no Frenzy and Khainite but Mark of Slaanesh instead, no Command options bar Champion)
Dark Riders (May take Mark of Slaanesh for +5pts but lose eternal hatred)
Furies (Must be bound to a specific Sorceress, if within 24” of that Sorceress can use her Leadership) [Do not Count Towards min Core]
Deamonettes (Must be bound to a specific Sorceress, if within 24” of that Sorceress can use her Leadership)
Marauders (Do not Count Towards min Core, Mark of Slaanesh for allocated cost in new book)
Marauders Horsemen (Do not Count Towards min Core, Mark of Slaanesh for allocated cost in new book)


Special:
Shades (May take Mark of Slaanesh for +10pts but lose eternal hatred)
Cold one Knights (May take Mark of Slaanesh for +10pts but lose eternal hatred)
Seekers of Slaanesh (Must be bound to a specific Sorceress, if within 24” of that Sorceress can use her Leadership)
Devoted of Slaanesh (Witch Elves with Soporific Musk, +1 Ws, +1Ld +1A, no Frenzy and Khainite but mark of Slaanesh instead, Command options 12/6/12, “Mistress [Hag]” can take 25pts of Daemonic Gifts)
Chaos Warriors (Mark of Slaanesh for allocated cost in new book)

Rare:
Reaper Bolt Throwers
Seeker Chariot (Must be bound to a specific Sorceress, if within 24” of that Sorceress can use her Leadership) (Would be about 110pts with two Deamonettes as the Chariot Crew)
Fiend of Slaanesh (Must be bound to a specific Sorceress, if within 24” of that Sorceress can use her Leadership)

A quick explanation on the “Bindings” system, as I see it you can “Bind” one daemon unit to a sorceress for every magic level you have, so if your army has 6 Levels of Magic, you can have 6 Daemonic Units, So in a sense any model with a magic level can bind a daemon unit to them, so the models are High Sorceress, Anointed, Keeper of secrets, Heralds of Slaanesh and Sorceress, Plenty of magic for you to include daemons.

Now, the Alter of Excess, I would have it as a mount for both the High Sorceress and the Sorceress, and give “Boons of Slaanesh” to 1 unit a turn within 24” the Boons I would have would be ASF, Re-roll all failed to Wound (Including spell damage wounds), and a 5+ Ward. In addition I would have it grant all Sorceresses within 12” +1 to Cast with the Lore of Slaanesh, and all models within 12” with the Mark of Slaanesh would gain a 6+ Ward Save. I also think its should have its own bound spell, something like at the start of every turn all enemy models within 24” of the Alter take a stupidity test. Power Level 4.

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"For every victory there is a defeat, for every defeat there is a victory. My victory, my defeat are for all to see..."
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Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:28 am
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Some really good ideas their Voodoomaster.

I love the ideas of daemons bound to their sorceresses. Good stuff. Could possibly be tied with the suggested rule about the Daemons taking a Demonic Instability test each turn after their "binder" has been killed as they slowly vanish back to the ether.
So here is what I propose for the "Bound To Reality" rule for all Demonic units.
Demonic units Daemonettes, Seekers and Fiends are all bound to a character. Characters that can be binders are High Sorceress (up to 4 bound, same as magic level, Ld 9), Keeper Of Secrets (up to 2 bound, Ld 9), Sorceress (up to 2 bound, Ld 8 ). Heralds and Anointed are neither. Reasoning here is that High/Sorceresses are mortal and channel the energy through them, Keepers are powerful enough to hold themselves into reality and can also support another couple of units, while Heralds are strong enough to hold themselves in the mortal realm, but do not have the extra energy to also bring others with him. Anointed are more bound-spell blessing characters than regulation sorcerers.
Units that are bound can ONLY use the leadership of the character they are bound to (not other characters or the General as usual) and can use it if they are within 12 inches of their binder.
Demonic units must take an Instability test either if they lose a combat (using either their own or their binders, if close enough, modified leadership) or at the start of each Cult players turn in which their binder is not on the battlefield (and thus MUST use their own unmodified leadership, as there binder is dead presumably). This test functions exactly the same as in the Daemons Of Chaos army book, standard leadership test and take no-save, Ward, or regen wounds equal to the amount they fail the test by.
This would come with a drop in leadership for all Bound units. I would think Daemonettes, Seekers and Fiends would all lose 2 lea dership and become Ld 5. This is quite drastic, but means they will usually fall apart without the support of their summoner.
A debate also needs to happen here on whether marked sorceresses can join the Demon units they are binding. I don't really have an opinion on this one. They probably should. Otherwise if a mounted Sorc can't join the Seekers, getting into combat could become too risky and an unfair disavantage for the Cult player. Keepers cannot join their units anyway as they are monsters.
I like these changes as it weakens the demons quite a bit, and makes them reasonably heavily but not totally reliant on the fragile Sorceresses, but also is not too much of a burden on the Cult player, unlike my Summoning circle idea. What do you all think of this?

I like the way that you have Cultists in core and Shades in special. Very cool. :D

"On the battlefield I can foresee devoted and regular warriors forming the core of the army with bound daemons being used as shock troops together with noble men on Cold Ones. Shades would be scuttling around the flanks causing damage together with dark riders and finally Sorceress and Anointed providing the punch both magically and physically.
Chaos Human allies would be amalgamated into the core of the army, but the elves shouldn’t care for them that is for certain. "

Sorry, still working on quotes, but these ideas are a good direction.

I'm still not sure that Mortal Warriors,Aspiring Champs or Maurauders are a good idea. A Cult army could march to war at any moment. When it did, it would gather all the Dark Elves available, head off to the battle, and summon whatever demons are required onto the site of the fighting. I'm not sure there would be time for huge Chaos troops to come stomping down from the north in time to reach the conflict. And neither can I see them hiding in Dark Elf society.

You put the devoted into special, but I would go for them in core. I'm imagining devoted as:

10/11 pts, M5, WS5, BS5 or 0, S3, T3, W1, I6, A2, LD8.
They have two handweapons. No armour.
Eternal Hatred.
Also they would either have "Sanction Of Slaanesh" or Mark Of Slaanesh.

I picture the Devoted as the base Slaanesh Cult troops, them, DE Warriors and Daemonettes forming the basis of the infantry blocks.

I agree that most troop units should not have the Mark and Hatred, but I think that the Anointed and maybe Devoted should have both. I see that the units of Warriors and stuff would have had their hatred eclipsed by the feelings and orders of Slaanesh.

However, I'm not convinced that most of the Dark Elves would submit to having a mark, a visible and permanent sign of devotion that goes totally against their haughty and selfmastered nature. Elves will submit to being commanded by other elves, but not permanently and only as long as their superiors could kill them if they wanted. At the first opportunity, they are going to cut loose and murder someone to move up the rankings. they can't do that to Slaanesh.

I'm still for the idea of DE retaining Hatred, and having a "Sanction Of Slaanesh" as well that confers some smallish bonus (6+ Ward, +1 I). No units with the Sanction would have Marks. Sanctioned units include: Crossbowmen, DE Warriors, DR, Shades, Bolt thrower crew. Units with Marks are: Cultists, Maurauders (I think they should be omitted, but if included they would be marked), Chaos Warriors (same here), Devoted, Anointed, Sorceresses, Aspiring champs (and again here). Units that are Demonic and thus don't have a mark but are dedicated: Daemonettes, Seekers, Fiends, Chariot, Keeper Of Secrets, Herald.
I'm not sure where Cold One Knights fit in.

Sanctioned units are provided benefits by Slaanesh, but only as long as he knows that they are a little under his control. This is as long as some Sorceresses or Anointed are present as they (unmarked DE) can always desert without too many consequences (they have not commited themselves beyond a showing up to the battle). Maybe units that flee during the battle could lose the sanction?

It would also be cool for the Anointed to have some sort of "Inspiring Presence" rule that he could make one unit of DE within 6/12" automatically rally each turn. This could represent him yelling out to those cowardly soldiers, and then commiting to the attack, and seeing his charge the DE realise the batle is not lost and continue to fight. Just a thought.

Anointed should be able to be upgraded to level 1 or 2 wizard, allowing them to cast 1/2 bound spell "Prayers" a turn. At either level they generate 1 DD.

I'm with you on the Alter idea, I like some of the stuff you have there. Happy to go with that, but also think there was a little merit in my "Soul Gateway" and "Demonic Acropolis" ideas.

After having a bit of a poke around, I see that many people don't believe Demon lists are generally cheesy, just that all their units are. When including Demons, we should not just copy and paste from the Demon book, but increase points costs or remove or tone down the demonic units a bit. I think the DE units we will be using are about right in their balance, but not the same for the Slaanesh Daemonettes, Fiends, Seekers and Keeper. Note I haven't played with or against the latest demon rules but general opinion and a read through the book makes me think they need to be toned down a little. Just a bit of small stuff, like removing all demons magic attacks, reinstating the Ward save as being ineffective against magical attacks and increasing the points cost of some of the demonic gifts. Does anyone else agree?

I think (even though yes I know that Greater Demons are supposed to be the greatest ever and so on) that the Keeper needs a bit of cheapening and strength cutting, as taking one just seems so over the top in 2k list (I think taking a dragon in under 2k is always over the top, I detest one model armies), even with the considerable cutbacks from 6th edition. I think it should lose 1 from its WS, S, T, W, A along with the above mentioned demonic cutbacks, and only be allowed 50 pts of demonic gifts and upgrade to max Level 2 wizard (Level 4 in demons as they don't have a High Wizard character, but in the Cult we already have that). Make it a bit cheaper, a bit more justifiable in medium-tournament sized armies, a bit less one model army and a bit more manageable but still very dangerous for the unfortunate enemy.

On another note, I think Fiends should gain a special rule allowing them to march through and suffer no movement penalties from difficult and very difficult terrain, as there is fluff about how they are so great at navigating obstacles and a 20 inch move without terrain obstruction sounds good....

MA

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Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:41 am
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Hello, new member here.
I had to register for this topic :)
I have never played a game of Warhammer, but I'm a huge fan of the CoS.
I was planning on making a CoS army until I heard they were removing it.
I did however convert many miniatures (haven't painted any yet) and I'm the leader of the WAR guild Cult of Slaanesh.

Compared to you people I know next to nothing about the fluff and how things should be. But this is how I saw this army:

I saw them as Dark Elves who warship Slaanesh instead of Khaine. (If they can warship one god why not another? and you seem to get more from Slaanesh)
To me they seemed like they got most of what a human would get from Slaanesh, chaos magic, chaos armor, and chaos demons.
To me the Chaos knights were just dark elves inside chaos armor.
The Anointed was fully devoted to Slaanesh, an Elf in chaos armor, with demonic gifts, incredible strength, and a mark of Slaanesh. and the rest of the army had varying amounts of chaosy elements to them.
I felt like the army was centered on the anointed (though he might not be its commander) like his charisma inspired them all.
And for some reason in my head the Anointed was the only male character and the rest were all female.

Also I'm a bit of an artist, ill be willing to try my hand if you want me to.


Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:57 am
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Welcome Taserak!!!

I'm in the same boat as you, know not a lot about the Cult, registered to join this thread and still a massive CoS fan.

Read some of the above stuff (not really from me as I have no idea what I'm talking about) but Voodoomaster and some others that actually know the stuff, and you will see that the elves get a quite different set of stuff from Slaanesh than the humans do. Most agree that Chaos armour permanently fused to your body is not the best if your part of a shunned underground cult, and somehow enhancing an elf to the build of a chaos knight isn't really what was happening.

Many want the new cult to have no mortals at all (me included) and it to simply be non-Khainite DE, some new hybrids we create (eg Anointed, Devoted etc) and Daemons. Thus the cult is a mixture of converted Dark Elves and demons summoned by the cult's sorceresses.

Glad to have you on the project especially if you are good at something creative as I am total rubbish and no one else has volunteered to do anything artistic. Also, converted miniatures are good as they can all be included in the Painting and Modeling section that I aspire to be part of our project.

Have a look at some of the stuff already been written and start to come up with your own contributions to this endeavor!!

I've also been having a think on the topic of magic items/demonic gifts (not only for the Anointed, but the Sorcs could also have some limited skills). Here are some of the ideas I have come up with:
Magic Items
- A bound spell that casts Slaaneshi Lore #2
- A bound spell that casts Slaaneshi Lore #3
Boots of Speed? - Grants ASF and 6+ Ward save
Icon of Binding - Allows one more demonic unit to be bound to the character than usual, can take from no units bound to one unit bound.

Demonic Skills/Gifts
Dancing Gait - Model gains +1/2/3? Movement.
Mirage? - Models attacking the bearer in CC (thats what I'll refer to the model with the skill as) suffer -2WS and shooting suffers -2BS.
Echoing Call (one use only) - (the bearer lets out a call that reverbrates through the ether drawing nearby demons into reality) Summons a unit of 5 Daemonettes that appear anywhere within 12" of the bearer. Function from then on as a regular Daemonette unit.
Reality Switch (Sorcs and High Sorcs only, one use only) - (the bearer is capable of temporarily switching bodies with a nearby demon in the warp) For a single round of combat only while blows are being struck, the model is assumed to have in all regards been replaced by a Daemonette Alluress. This regards stats, special rules and equipment, but only while both sides are attacking. Should the Alluress be slain, both the Sorceress and Alluress are removed as casualties and both count for combat resolution. Should the Alluress survive, before counting combat res replace the Alluress with the usual Sorceress. The alluress does not count as a casualty. Enemy units never have to suffer any effects caused by FEAR of the temporary alluress.
Disturbing Truth/Word? (one use only) - (the bearer screeches a sound of pure Chaos that strikes fear and panic into the hearts of nearby enemy soldiers, making them believe the battle is lost, I envisage this like a Slaaneshi Word Of Pain) Choose one enemy unit within 12" of the bearer. This unit must immeadiately test for panic with a -1 leadership penalty, even if immune to psychology.
Steed Of Will (Sorcs/High Sorcs only) - (the bearer is capable of pulling a Steed Of Slaanesh into reality using only the power of their will, allowing them to use its speed to move them rapidly across the battlefield) Bearer way choose to summon a Steed Of slaanesh at the start of each turn. If so, the bearer counts as mounted on a steed for all purposes for the rest of the turn. At the end of the Cult players turn the Steed vanishes back into the warp, and the Sorceresses does not count as mounted for the opponents turn. The steed may be resummoned in consecutive turns if the Cult player so wishes.
Aura Of the Dark Prince - (the bearer is surrounded by an aura of pink energy, which lashes out at opponents that come near enough) in each round of CC, before blows are struck and impact hits resolved, each model touching the bearer suffers one S3 hit.

I know everyone loves Assassins now (including me) and I don't see why the Cult couldn't have a similar thing. Kind of like a cross between the Assassins of Khaine and the Chaos Chosen (not in stats, but the whole marked by the gods for greatness sort of idea). I would call this "Assassin" a Disciple. Obviously, Assassins are dedicated to Khaine, but they are trained by their religious leaders (hags and stuff) so the Disciples could be a similar principle, just that they had developed a slightly different fighting style, and had the blessing of Slaanesh on their side.

I came up with a few equivalents to the skills that the Dark Elf Assassins can have, but for the Disciple. Note that the Disciples unique style often involves throwing knives at short range and on attacking with two knives, using them in conjunction to stab or block.

Disciple Skills
Master Of Dual Wielding - If fighting with two hand weapons, the Disciple gains +2A in close combat instead of the usual +1.
Poison Of Self Indulgence - (this poison once injected gradually grows the affected's ego until all they want to do is sit and marvel at themselves) Models wounded by the poison suffer from stupidity for the rest of the battle and each turn must test with a Leadership penalty equal to the number of turns that has passed since they were wounded.
Painless Killer - Disciple has killing blow.
Supernatural Deflection - (the Disciple is so fast that enemies often belive they have stuck the Disciple only for him to block their blades nanometres from his skin) - For each attack that hits the Disciple in CC, the Cult player may roll a D6 and on the score of a 5+, discount that hit.
Dual Stab - (the Disciple sacrifices the amount of hits he can deal for the ability to hit each enemy with both knives he carries rather than one) If armed with 2HW the Disciple may choose at the start of each round of Close Combat to sacrifice 1A in order to gain +1 on all his To Wound rolls.
Dual Block - (the Disciple focusses on blocking enemy attacks by withdrawing slightly from the fighting) If armed with 2HW, the Disciple may choose at the start of each round to sacrifice 1A in order to force all enemies that attack him to suffer a -1 penalty on all their To Wound rolls.
Twin Knife Missiles - (the Disciple abandons all other attacks and hurls two burning knives as hard as possible into one oppossing enemies weakest point). The Disciple makes no attacks this round. Instead choose one model in the oppossing unit. This model must pass an Initiative test with a -1/2/3? modifier or be hit by one Strenght 10 blow that does D6 wounds and ignores armour and regeneration saves.
Dart Fan - (The Disciple leaps into the middle of the enemy and spins rapidly, throwing darts into the chests of all opponents surrounding him) place the small 3" template anywhere over the enemy unit. All models with their bases fully covered suffer one Strength 4/5 armour piercing hit.
Supernatural Speed - (it is said Disciples strike so fast that they tear at the boundaries of reality) Enemy fighting the Disciple that have the ASF rule must attack in usual charge/initiative order, while the Disciple still counts as ASF.

I imagine these disciples as being heroes rather than non-counting core like the DE ones, as they would be better with some of those skills, but also more limited as the Cult can't train too many of these due to its size. They would probably be T2 too but have M7 due to their extremely lithe form. They would have no armour.

What do you guys all think of these items/skills/Disciple/Disciple skills? Does anyone else want the Disciple to be part of the Cult?

MA

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Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:46 am
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Hi there! :) Finally got enough time to manage to read and think about ideas given in last 10-or-so posts. My main thoughts:

- I really like idea of Cult of Slaanesh vs Cult of Khaine conflict and campaign based around it

- I'm against including Disciples of Slaanesh, Dark Pegasus Knights or Slaves, generally because of little place for new entries. Normal DE have 5 character and 13 (14 including assasin) unit choices. Other armies have (Characters/Units): HE (5/14), WE (6/10), DoC (9/13), WoC (5/16).
6th ed. 6th CoS had (6/13) so we already have many choices (assuming we're not dumping mortals, and 6th ed SoC fluff with that), and we have much fluffier IMO candidates than the above - like Fiend of Slaanesh, Altar of Excess or Herald of Slaanesh.
(fluff-wise - why should CoS use Slaves and DPK if 'vanilla' DE don't? As for Disciple - in the army itself assasin-like hero isn't IMO very fitting for Slaanesh Cult and outside battlefield CoS might hire regular assasin, who dosen't need to know much of his employers)

- if including Slaaneshi COK (which I'm for :) ), I think they should (fluff-, and even more balance-wise) keep their stupidity; if 'vanilla' DE can deal with that, so can CoS.

- as for daemons, I think they should be used as they are
a) most of Slaaneshi daemons are low-T expensive elite units, IMO hardly overpowered, just competitive (unlike some other god's units - or possible special-character-mix-combos ;) )
b) KoS is powerfull, but I guess it's nothing wrong, as he's still killable and also the only 'big nasty thing' choice in the army, whereas basic DE have dragon, manticore and hydra
c) ritual circle idea, while fluffy, makes for rather defensive/static playstyle, which IMO doesn't fit CoS

- I do like Altar of Exces idea. Slaaneshi altar makes for interesting and very fluffy unit. Rulewise I prefer Voodoomasters version (as something close to both Cauldron of Blood and Chaos Warshrine), 'capturing and bringig sacrifices' seems too complicated to me, as for game that lasts about 6 turns.

- Eternal Hatered with MoS issue is indeed debatable. I believe fluff-wise it could go either way. Balance-wise EH>ItP (BTW in WoC MoS costs only 5 pts for characters and 10 pts for units; Spawn pays 20 pts for it but gets ASF in the bundle ;) ). So unless some special bonus is given to Marked units they should get cheaper, instead of paying for the mark (which, to me, feels... wierd :? )

- I'd also see Devoted as core - for me they are the cultist unit; Not to repeat myself too much, I'd leave them as they were, except with 1 A less to balance gaining of EH.



Finally, (as promised a long while ago ;) ) here's my proposition for mortal part of the army (this - in a way - includes Anointed):

Lords

Druchii Anointed 210 pts
M6 WS8 BS7 S5 T3 W3 I9 A5 Ld9
Mark of Slaanesh; Eternal Hatered; Causes Fear; 5+ Anointed Ward Save; May be a Sorcerer at +35 pts per level, up to Level 2. If a Sorcerer, he may use the Lore of Slaanesh or Dark Magic.
Equippement: HW, Chaos Armour
Options:
- Lance, GW - 10 pts
- Halberd or AHW - 6 pts
- RXB (10 pts) or RHB (8 pts) or pair of RHBs (16 pts)
- Shield - 3 pts
- Mark of Slaanesh - 5 pts
- May ride a Cold One (30 pts), a Dark Steed (18 pts), a Barded Chaos Steed (24 pt) or a Steed of Slaanesh (25 pts)
- May take 100 pts of generic, dark elf or chaos magic items; may also take 50 pts of chaos gifts
*following gifts from WoC: Distendable Maw, Word of Agony, Diabolic Splendour, Conjoined Homunculus (only if a Sorcerer), Sopoforic Musk, Bloodcurdling Roar, Acid Ichor
*also following gifts from 6th ed CoS list: Quickening Blood, Avatar of Slaanesh (CoS), Narcotic Fumes (re-named Soporific Musk), Aura of Slaanesh (re-named Allure of Slaanesh)

re-naming due to existing new abilities of such name; main cost calulated as in previous DA cost (235), changing HE hatred to EH (+15), much cheaper MoS in WoC (-20), only T3 (-20, based on Shield of Ghrond effect - SoG minus shield cost is 22 and -1 S to every attack is a little bit different, but overall minimally better than +1 T); equippement cost based on Dreadlord and modified for GW/Lance because of basic S5 (WoC characters pay more for option of getting S7 this way too)


Heroes

0-1 Marauder Warlord 100 pts
M4 WS7 BS3 S5 T4 W2 I6 A4 Ld8
Mark of Slaanesh; Mere Mortal
Equippement: HW & LA
Options:
- GW 8pts
- AHW/Flail 4 pts
- Shield 5 pts
- May ride a warhorse (10 pts) or Steed of Slaanesh (25 pts)
- May take 50 pts of generic or chaos magic items; may also take 25 pts of chaos gifts (effectively one of the following: Sopoforic Musk, Bloodcurdling Roar or Acid Ichor)

point difference to Exalted Champion from WoC (for lack of ChA) calculated by comparing appropriate 6th ed warrior hero with Skeggi list marauder hero


Core

Marauders of Slaanesh 5 pts
Mark of Slaanesh, Mere Mortals, otherwise as in WoC

Marauder Horsemen of Slaanesh 15pts
Mark of Slaanesh, Mere Mortals, otherwise as in Woc

normal marauders units in WoC cost 4 and 13 respectively, but since MoS is obligatory I thought it's 'cleaner' to include it in basic cost - with 10 pts for mark it goes the same for basic size unit, and those few points for bigger units go for 'Mere Mortals' bonus (description below). Other Mortal units got similiar treatment.

As for Horsemen, which are new addition to CoS list - after reading CoS & Hung fluff, they seemed neseccary IMO from background point of view; rule-wise they may seem too similiar to Dark Riders, but being unable to flee and slower they're somewhat different and make good core replacement for shades


Special

Chaos Warriors of Slaanesh 16 pts
Mark of Slaanesh, Warband, otherwise as in WoC


Rare

Knights of Slaanesh 42 pts (only 1 unit per Anointed)
Mark of Slaanesh, Warband, otherwise as in WoC

Spawn of Slaanesh 75 pts (2 per 1 rare choice, as in WoC)
Warband; otherwise it's basically Spawn of Chaos marked with MoS from WoC

Mere Mortals- fleeing/broken marauder units don't cause panic in DE units

Warband- this unit is part of Druchii Anointed’s Retinue, so may be taken only if army includes him; Anointed may join such unit even though they’re not Dark Elves; Also unit cannot benefit from general’s leadership, but can instead benefit form Anointed’s Ld if he is within 12”


For WoC references you can check this link.


Last edited by Weenth on Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:47 pm
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I haven't read the updated WoC book yet, and can't be bothered to scroll through all that stuff on the link, but otherwise a few comments on Weenth's ideas:

Firstly, I also agree that the summoning circle isn't the best idea and so am more in favour of a bound to sorceress idea now as I said above.

"I love the ideas of daemons bound to their sorceresses. Good stuff. Could possibly be tied with the suggested rule about the Daemons taking a Demonic Instability test each turn after their "binder" has been killed as they slowly vanish back to the ether.
So here is what I propose for the "Bound To Reality" rule for all Demonic units.
Demonic units Daemonettes, Seekers and Fiends are all bound to a character. Characters that can be binders are High Sorceress (up to 4 bound, same as magic level, Ld 9), Keeper Of Secrets (up to 2 bound, Ld 9), Sorceress (up to 2 bound, Ld 8 ). Heralds and Anointed are neither. Reasoning here is that High/Sorceresses are mortal and channel the energy through them, Keepers are powerful enough to hold themselves into reality and can also support another couple of units, while Heralds are strong enough to hold themselves in the mortal realm, but do not have the extra energy to also bring others with him. Anointed are more bound-spell blessing characters than regulation sorcerers.
Units that are bound can ONLY use the leadership of the character they are bound to (not other characters or the General as usual) and can use it if they are within 12 inches of their binder.
Demonic units must take an Instability test either if they lose a combat (using either their own or their binders, if close enough, modified leadership) or at the start of each Cult players turn in which their binder is not on the battlefield (and thus MUST use their own unmodified leadership, as there binder is dead presumably). This test functions exactly the same as in the Daemons Of Chaos army book, standard leadership test and take no-save, Ward, or regen wounds equal to the amount they fail the test by.
This would come with a drop in leadership for all Bound units. I would think Daemonettes, Seekers and Fiends would all lose 2 lea dership and become Ld 5. This is quite drastic, but means they will usually fall apart without the support of their summoner.
A debate also needs to happen here on whether marked sorceresses can join the Demon units they are binding. I don't really have an opinion on this one. They probably should. Otherwise if a mounted Sorc can't join the Seekers, getting into combat could become too risky and an unfair disavantage for the Cult player. Keepers cannot join their units anyway as they are monsters.
I like these changes as it weakens the demons quite a bit, and makes them reasonably heavily but not totally reliant on the fragile Sorceresses, but also is not too much of a burden on the Cult player, unlike my Summoning circle idea. What do you all think of this?"

i really also like the idea of VERY LIMITED mortals being able to be included as an Anointed's retinue. Very cool idea, with Anointed being effectively the general for the unit he had with him, providing a reason for the Dark Elves to have some mortals with them. I see though that the ONLY mortals allowed would be ONE unit of Warriors or Knights per Anointed, but otherwise no Mortal Warriors, Marauders or Spawn. These mortals would not be able to be joined by anyone other than the anointed. They would be sort of distrusted, as the DE have bound the demons, and have a very limited respect of their fellows, but would only accpet the Warriors if they would get bashed by the anointed if they disagreed. The fluff seems to indicate that lots of Chaos troops wouldn't be able to hide out in DE society during the everyday running of the cult, and if a war broke out wouldn't have the time to redeploy to where the action was, but it is feasible that a VERY few mortals could form the day to day bodyguard of the anointed, but otherwise the cult would have no mortals.

This is sort of summarized here:

"I'm still not sure that Mortal Warriors,Aspiring Champs or Maurauders are a good idea. A Cult army could march to war at any moment. When it did, it would gather all the Dark Elves available, head off to the battle, and summon whatever demons are required onto the site of the fighting. I'm not sure there would be time for huge Chaos troops to come stomping down from the north in time to reach the conflict. And neither can I see them hiding in Dark Elf society. "

Also, most of us not in favour of none or very limited mortals disagree on the background and also the "feel" of the army. The dark elves are all about fragility and strike power, manouverability with little armour, expensive, a bit of punch but will crumple if given a decent wack. The Slaaneshi Demons go along very well with this theme, but allowing too many mortals could easily distort the feel away from this.

I don't really see a need in the army for spawn and marauders anyway, or even Warriors and knights (but for them I can see it reasonable that the anointed would have a few with him and needs a few soldiers to back him up), as the marauders are the cheap troops already filled by Warriors, horseman seem pretty similar to DR and Spawn don't really fit in.

Slaaneshi demons do not seem too overpowered (on paper), but i think that Itp and 5+ Ward/Fear are often undercosted, and I would recommend (along with proposed reliance on summoner and leadership cuts) Daemonettes to 13 pts, Fiends to 60-65 pts (with Terrain navigation skill) and Seekers maybe 25 pts.

I have a different view on the Keeper, expressed here:

"I think (even though yes I know that Greater Demons are supposed to be the greatest ever and so on) that the Keeper needs a bit of cheapening and strength cutting, as taking one just seems so over the top in 2k list (I think taking a dragon in under 2k is always over the top, I detest one model armies), even with the considerable cutbacks from 6th edition. I think it should lose 1 from its WS, S, T, W, A along with the above mentioned demonic cutbacks, and only be allowed 50 pts of demonic gifts and upgrade to max Level 2 wizard (Level 4 in demons as they don't have a High Wizard character, but in the Cult we already have that). Make it a bit cheaper, a bit more justifiable in medium-tournament sized armies, a bit less one model army and a bit more manageable but still very dangerous for the unfortunate enemy. "

The herald can stay as is.

I have now reconsidered and am happy to lose dark pegasus knights and slaves. If the disciple isn't in, then the Assassins shouldn't be (and this idea of them being kept in the dark about their employter) as the Assassins are 100% dedicated to Khaine and when they show up to battle and see all the Slaaneshi Demons they would probably refuse to fight or turn on the regiment they are hidden in. For me its Disciples, or not and no Assassins.

I also agree that my ideas about an Altar Of Excess are a bit complicated and difficult to accept as workable in the games 6 turn frame, but I was just interested in taking the idea a bit beyond the "Grant one of these bonuses to a unit" sort of idea. Something more like Epidemeus (Daemons) or something.

On the Eternal Hatred and Mark thing, this was my suggestion.

"• As said, normal DE aren’t going to put up with a Mark, but I felt that as long as Slaanesh had some control (Sorceresses) over these uncommitted warriors, he would still give them a bit of a benefit while they serve him. I have called this “Sanction Of Slaanesh”. It doesn’t involve anything permanent, but as long as any Sorceresses with the Mark Of Slaanesh are still alive, all models with the “Sanction Of Slaanesh” gain a small bonus. My idea for this was possibly +1M, +1I and a 6+Ward. Should all Sorceresses be slain, Slaanesh knows he has lost control of his uncommitted warriors and so would revoke the sanction. This sanction would be a small upgrade (and probably compulsory) to units such as Warriors and Crossbowmen."

This Sanction would go to most DE units, with the Demons keeping their "already marked" sort of rules and the limited Mortals probably staying as they are. The only ones I see with both the Mark and Eternal hatred would be the Sorceresses, Anointed and the Devoted.

Sorry weenth, but I didn't pick up here:
"b) KoS is powerfull, but I guess it's nothing wrong, as he's still killable and also the only 'big nasty thing' choice in the army, whereas basic DE have dragon, manticore and hydra"
what the KoS was. What are you reffering to?

Sorry to everyone for quoting myself so much or filling up the thread and making it hard for you all to read, but I really like the idea and have heaps to say. Sorry!

MA

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Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:55 am
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1. The daemons - I must admit I'd rather leave daemon units as they are, simply because of 'If it ain't broke, don't fix' attidute. I think it's best to keep list as close to official rules as possible, so unless original rules cause balance-problems (which, in my opinion the don't - I've tried 6th ed CoS army list upgraded with 7th ed daemon rules, and in my experience Daemonettes work ok as they are; at least the ones on foot - haven't tried out new Seekers or Fiend yet) they shouldn't be changed. Some changes also cause fluff problems, as in: why should CoS Fiend get 'terrain navigation skill' if DoC one doesn't?

Same goes for KoS (Keeper of the Secrets). I understand that some people, like You, MartialArtist, might dislike big, costy models in rather small (2000 pts) armies. In tournament enviroment it is possibly problematic (since for long time I've been only playing at home, personally I can't speak much about it)
Still, the way I see it, Warhammer is not only about tournaments and if DE (as well as other armies) have such option in 2000 pts, there's nothing wrong with CoS having one (Under 2000 it's not possible for either as both mounted dragon and KoS are lord choices)


2. Daemon binding - in this case - while idea itself fits, and causes no big fluff problems I'd leave it out simply beacause daemon units in the army work well without it (so don't fix it ;) ). Keeping them to special/rare slots for me does enough to limit their use. Only problem might be overuse of core daemonettes - 6th ed list managed this by obligatory 1+ devoted unit, maybe better thing would be making daemonettes not count towards minimum core or moving them to special.

Still, above is based on my approch to making rules, and if you want to develop such idea, it might well work, with some tweaking. Rule-wise only problem I see in currently proposed version is breakable DE character joining unbrekable daemonic unit (was also a problem in undead armies, hence making necromancers undead already back in 6th ed) on one hand, and on the other - problems with keeping binder alive if it's not allowed.


3. Assassins - I agree, no khainite assassins in CoS army. It's about pleasure, not backstabbing. ;)


4. Eternal Hatred / MoS - If we decide that Mark excludes EH, some bonus is ideed needed, but I'd say +1M, +1I and 6+ Ward save is quite a big bonus. Would rather see it as simply 6+ Ward save (maybe even non-working against magic, like anointed ward save) with ItP and no bouns cost for exchange.

Still, for me that might goes only on situation where there is MoS on DE unit/character. I believe EH & MoS can be married fluff-wise, but even if not, there's no reason to remove EH from unmarked unit. Moreso, it seems unfitting that 'Sanction' would bestow better bonus than Mark.

Personally I think marked DE units can be fitted in fluff, but if You think contradictory (which also has it's reasoning), just leave them as they are, and make bouns-granting solely Slaaneshi Altar thing.


5. Mortals in CoS army - this goes back to the fluff-choice discussion. The way I see it - if keeping the 6th ed CoS fluff (since SoC is no longer available either in shops or gw website, I allowed myself to quote that fluff at the bottom of the post (in cyan)) marauders are a must, other mortal chaos more-or-less limited. As cult is revealed and army officaly musterd, ready to fight with enemy (be it Lizardmen, some other loot-victims or Khaine cult) there's no problem of how to get mortal forces to battlefield.

If we assume that CoS works again undercover, there's hardly place for any mortals or anointed - (s)he's a mutant, and visible one at that. TBH, if there's any mortal ally easily available for undercover cult it's Hung marauders - when not in great numbers, their presence close to DE borders doesn't cause suspicion, unlike Slaneshii champion (who Anointed after all is) with his chaos-armoured warband.

As i've written before, I'm for the first option (6th ed revealed CoS), if only because some of us like it, and others can simply choose not to use mortal units in their army (and still will have quite decent choice).

P.S.
MartialArtist - all input is welcome, You have many ideas and I understand that means sometimes long post are unaviodable (have problem with post lenght myself ;) ). Try using text format - be it quoting, bold/italic or color - it all can make long text more structured and readable.

P.P.S.
Re-reading CoS fluff gave me an idea for much simplier and fitting name of marauder hero ;) , I'll re-edit my previous post with that.


THE CULT OF SLAANESH
Fearing assault from the north while her son, the Witch King Malekith, fought on Ulthuan, the Dark Elf Sorceress Morathi sought to embrace the coming of the Chaos legions and turn them to her own ends.

With Malekith utterly fixated upon reclaiming Ulthuan, Morathi was concerned with the amount of energy this ongoing war was draining from the Druchii nation. Morathi decided the time right to revive the Cult of Slaanesh to become a significant power once more. Though the Hag Queens believed that they had suppressed the Cult for years, almost stamping it out utterly, this was merely an illusion, and the growth of the Cult dramatic. The power of the Convents of the Sorceresses had grown strong in recent years with their increasing involvement with the Cult of Slaanesh.

Seeking to strengthen the Cult, Morathi travelled far to the north. Borne upon the back of her Dark Pegasus, Sulephet, and accompanied by a coterie of Sorceresses also riding swift, flying steeds, she soared through the darkness over the mountains and forests. They flew on past the great spires of the northern wachtowers that marked the border of their realm. Yet still they flew on, pushing far into the enemy territory of the savage Chaos tribes known collectively as the Hung.

Eventually, Morathi and her coterie directed their steeds to land upon the tainted soil in the midst of a great gathering of warbands. An enormous fire burned at the heart of the gathering, around which sat the warlords and chieftains. The grim northern warriors clutched their cruel weapons tightly as the female Elves leapt lightly from their saddles, and gracefully walked through the campsite. None dared to halt their progress, for all could feel the power these strange, lithe women wielded as whey made their way to the centre of the gathering.

The warlords rose from their council to confront the interlopers. The savage sorcerers of the tribes gasped as they saw the beauty of Morathi; the eye of the great god Slaanesh, who they knew as Shaarnor, was upon her, proclaimed the mystics. In their eyes, the favour of the Prince of Pleasure coiled around her like a serpent.

In a spectacular, orgiastic ritual, Morathi summoned sixty troupes of six Daemonettes, and bid them descend upon the tribe’s main Kurgan rivals. The Daemonettes ripped through the Kurgan warbands with insouciant ease, and the warlords swore their oaths of alliance with the Dark Elf Sorceress. So it came to pass that Moarthi allied herself with the tribes that had been previously raiding the borders of Naggaroth. Word of her alliance spread throughout the Hung tribes, to whom she became known as the Consort-Queen of Shaarnor.

With Morathi at their head, her Chaotic allies began the march towards the lands of the Dark Elves. No more would they have need to assault those lands, for behind Morathi they would march within its borders without bloodshed. When they arrived in Naggaroth, Morathi planned to form her great Cult army and turn towards the south, towards the steaming jungles of Lustria. In her greed for the ancient, magical marvels of the Old Ones, she sought once more to push deep into that land like a plunging dagger. To her son Malekith, she justified this desire by feeding his own greed - for such wonders and weapons that lie dormant within the crumbling temple-cities could surely be turned against the hated High Elves. The gos of Chaos smile down upon Morathi, for any attack against the fading Lizardmen must weaken their resistance to the forces of Chaos.

DRUCHII ANOINTED
In the long distant past, at the time of the Sundering, many Elves under the influence of Morathi turned to the worship of Slaanesh. As catastrophic civil war erupted, some favoured warriors who had dedicated their souls to the Dark Prince were gifted with fell, unnatural powers. These powers grew as the centuries passed, and the Elves who backed Morathi and her son left thier homelands, founding a new world for themselves across the seas - Naggaroth.

When the Cult was outlawed in favour of the worship of Khaine, these favourites of Slaanesh hid themselves away from prying eyes. Some journeyed far to the north, there to meet battle with the denizens of the Realms of Chaos, and experience every sensation possible. As passing centuries turned to passing millennia, the numbers of these now supremely powerful beings, known as the Anointed, dwindled, so that only a handful remained. Unlike lesser beings, Elves are resistant to the physically mutating taint of Chaos, yer over so many years of exposure, the touchof Chaos began to affect them in other ways. Overloaded with sensations and craving more, their pupils dilated to such an extent that their eyes appeared as complete blackness. The skin of some of the Anointed turned translucent and blue tinged - others, their flesh turned ebony. They exude terrifying strength, and are capable of unnatural feats of Daemonic power. Now that Morathi has reawakened the Cult of Slaanesh, the Anointed have returned.


Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:37 am
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Weenth, where did you get that CoS fluff? I've had a bit of a look but have been having trouble finding any (official) stuff about the Cult besides the rules. CAn you provide a link?

"2. Daemon binding - in this case - while idea itself fits, and causes no big fluff problems I'd leave it out simply beacause daemon units in the army work well without it (so don't fix it ). Keeping them to special/rare slots for me does enough to limit their use. Only problem might be overuse of core daemonettes - 6th ed list managed this by obligatory 1+ devoted unit, maybe better thing would be making daemonettes not count towards minimum core or moving them to special. "

They work well without it, and also this stuff about leaving the demons as close as possible to official rules I understand because it means people are more likely to give it the thumbs up, but I think that GW make mistakes (some big, some not so) and that with this rewrite we have the opportunity to tidy there work up a bit.

Check out this thread as an example: http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=57073

The Binding I think should still say, as at the moment the Demons don't have many weaknesses besides highish cost, and I think they need a bit of an achilles heel as a (sort of) compensation for the fact that we are mixing two armies here.
This stuff about unbreakble rules and stuff can be either given as another bonus fo r the Sorcs with their Mark if required or else they can just not be able to join their summoned units, making an interesting space managment issue for Cult players.

"Still, for me that might goes only on situation where there is MoS on DE unit/character. I believe EH & MoS can be married fluff-wise, but even if not, there's no reason to remove EH from unmarked unit. Moreso, it seems unfitting that 'Sanction' would bestow better bonus than Mark. "

My idea behind the sanction is that it is a midway point between the Mark and nothing, so I don't know what everyone considers better than what, but maybe just a +1M, +1I increase or a 6+ Ward (compared to ItP?, is that current Slaanesh mark?). The other point about the sanctions was it wasn't permanent and only effective as long as some Sorcs were still alive as they guaranteed a bit of control for Slaanesh. this meant that regardless of the Mark's power, there was always the chance that it could be gone. Sort of similar to the Bret's lady's blessing.

"Same goes for KoS (Keeper of the Secrets). I understand that some people, like You, MartialArtist, might dislike big, costy models in rather small (2000 pts) armies. In tournament enviroment it is possibly problematic (since for long time I've been only playing at home, personally I can't speak much about it)
Still, the way I see it, Warhammer is not only about tournaments and if DE (as well as other armies) have such option in 2000 pts, there's nothing wrong with CoS having one (Under 2000 it's not possible for either as both mounted dragon and KoS are lord choices) "

I suppose that is fair enough, but then maybe we could invent a lesser demon or something as a sort of midway point? I know this starts creating all sorts of issues over balance of army choices and unofficial units and such, but maybe a weaker (as I suggested) KoS taking only a lord, and then still the tougher greater demon (is it Lord and Hero choice? should be).

Couple of other things:

I'm in favour of updating the Manflayer for 7th ed (nothing major, just a few word changes) as part of our project (still available to other armies as mercs as usual) as a sort of "extra" behind the army list sort of thing, as I love the manflayers and updated rules would be great.

I had another couple of ideas for magic items and skills
- Banner that absorbs spell targeting unit on 4+ and then may be cast as bound spell by the cult player in next magic phase.
- (Champion Of Slaanesh) +1 to hit and to wound in challenges. In addition, once the model has slain an opponent in a challenge, all enemies will hate and fear the slayer.
- Shielding Banner - 2/3 magic resistance.

MA

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Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:47 am
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1. Fluff - CoS fluff I quoted comes from Storm of Chaos campaign book, where CoS list originaly appeard. Can't give you a link, as I don't have one, the book also isn't available in most GW stores by now. Probably you might be able to find .pdf version on some torrent.

Still, above few paragraphs and Army List (which until recently was also available from UK GW website) is all there is about CoS in SoC. ;) It isn't much, still it's almost all official fluff about CoS we have. Other things are the few mentions in general DE/HE background and veery old WD article on DE (so old that it contradicts 4+ ed. fluff in many places). There's also Black Library publication on Storm of Chaos - don't have it and dunno if there's any info on CoS, as it was secondary plot in the campaign.

2. Changes & Daemons - true, GW makes mistakes, I think all of us agree about that. Unfortunatly - as even this discussion on this project showed - there isn't even general consensus about what the big mistakes are (is removing Slaanesh from DE fluff good thing or not?), even moreso the smaller ones. Like - is Pendant of Khaeleth cheesy? I'd say yes and will surely use a house rule to change it (like making it sorcerer only item or upping its cost). Still, many people [urlhttp://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=58172&start=0/url]here[/url] think different. For me one thing is sure - in CoS list it isn't more cheesy than in offical DE army book, and leaving 'status quo' is easier to accept for many.

As for daemons, by linking DoC & DE we link two armies of rather fast, but expensive, T3 troops with limited save (5+ ward save isn't so briliant, when you have low T and no AS). As they share same flaws, mixing them is rather about fluff and variety than giving power to the list.

If there's potential for overly powerful list coming from the mix, I'd rather see it in inclusion of Warriors, Knights and Anointed. But this can bee dealt with by limiting them and removing other powerful choices, like DE hydra (both of which are done when keeping 6th ed outlines of the army list)

3. Sanction and Mark of Slaanesh - As to what's better
- current MoS is indeed ItP
# 6+ ward save is Mark of Tzeentch, wich is twice the cost of MoS.
# +1 M is rare bonus, so hard to check 'offcial pricing' of it. To me it seems better than ItP.
# +1 I is definitly less useful than ItP, question is - is it useful at all?

But aside from that - if Sanction is to be dependant on sorceresses, I'd rather see it as a bonus included in her price, not units (like khainite units don't pay for optional bonus from cauldron). Now, the more I think about, the more I'm inclined to link such bonus with Altar rather than sorceresses themselves, and leaving units themself simply either with or without mark option.

Personally I'd prefer to have option to mark DE, as in my vision of background I can see many of the DE cultist with MoS.
There would be those few, who agreed to take it because of sensations it grants, but more would be of those, who joined the cult (or - in their view - gave themselves decadent fun) and one day simply found out they have been marked (isn't it how Empire cults often work? those marked by gods often didn't know it was Chaos that they praised).

Also - nowhere it is said (AFAIK), that Mark of Chaos God is a blatant tatoo on the skin, at least the way WFRP fluff used to put it, it could be any change, simply a sign that one's brought Chaos's intrest upon himself. And as elves are more resilient to physical corruption it might be mind or sense altering, unnoticable from outside.

4. Weaker daemon type - for a weaker type Daemon Prince of Slaanesh might simply be included. Another step weaker from that is IMO at the power level of Anointed, so no need to get another such type.
Still, I'm against because of limited space in the list - if we're including Altar, Fiend, Herald and Marauder Horsmen we're already lookin at 7 character and 17 unit types. :shock:

Beacuse of same reason I'd take away option of chariot for herald, as that's effectively another unit (especially seeing as other chariot units have been removed from the list)

As for KoS slots - in 6th ed both in HoC and CoS he took Lord, Hero and Rare. In DoC it's simply Lord. I think in CoS Lord+Hero would be about right, as he's power-counterpart of Dreadlord or Supreme Sorceress on Dragon (depending on taken gifts/options)

5. Manflyers 7th ed upgrade - I'm all for it. :)

6. New magic items ideas - TBH, it's hard for me to comment on them - especially rule-wise - when I don't know the reasoning behind them.

Fluff-wise they all seem ok, but just that - not of 'what the heck is this doing in Slaaneshii army?' nor 'it's so fluffy and fiting it just has to be in the list'.


Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:19 pm
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The new magic items are just ideas, not supposed to be particularly fluffy or anything, just some ideas for bonuses skills etc. could grant.

on the mark/sanction, possibly the DE could be marked, but I think most people have the mental image that it is a physical symbol or warping of flesh or similar. Maybe is isn't, and I can imagine that being resistant and close to the Gods the elves would have their minds warped a bit, so I'm sort of divided.

Giving the DE marks would be easy and fine, but I still like the idea of some individual Slaanesh effect individual to the Dark Elves.

Your comment on the bonus being associated with the sorcs is interesting. Possibly we could then increase the cost of the sorcs and have units that they join gain some bonus as her presence and slaaneshi aura and feel inspires the god's devoted or something?

I've got the old CoS rules, but no little else besides the obvious but it seems I wasn't missing much.

Its true that the Slaanesh Demons are probably reasonably balanced compared to other demons and can stay as are.

MA

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Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:12 am
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Quote:
The new magic items are just ideas, not supposed to be particularly fluffy or anything, just some ideas for bonuses skills etc. could grant.


the magic items as ideas You've given are ok, I just believe they belong more to general new ideas than CoS ideas. CoS already has bigger than usual choice of them (common, DE and Slaaneshii Chaos items, Mortal units also regular Chaos items) or something similar (Daemonic & Mortal Chaos Gifts) so there should be a really good reason to put anything new in this aspect. As in: an answer to 'Why CoS has them and regular DE don't?', both fluff- and rule-wise.

I guess there is some place, as a couple of DE items fluff-wise shouldn't be available to CoS. Particulary: Deathmask, Crimson Death, Armour of Eternal Servitude and Dread Banner, probably also Seal of Ghrond. I also have doubts about Whip of Agony, Web of Shadows and Banner of Nagarythe, although these are not so obvious IMO.

While it doesn't make overall number of options small (as there are other to compensate as I mentioned above) it does remove few important options - question is: is it good or bad thing.

regeneration
- is only available to DE characters through AoES, so removing it means less protection
- on the other hand new character - Anointed thanks to additional points for Chaos Gifts can be made quite powerfull in offensive aspect, so maybe in line of 'fast and hitty but fragile' it's ok to leave such option out
- it also removes option of almost unkillable AS+reverse WS (Pendant of Kaeleth) + regeneration character, which I think is good
All in all - mixed feelings about it

magic defense
- DE already have little in this aspect, so removing khaine-priestess blessed Seal of Ghrond hits hard their options in this respect
If removing SoG I'd opt for introducing some other +1 DD item

fear/terror causing
- cutting out khainite items means both Deathmask and Dread Banner are left out
- this, combined with leaving out most of monsters makes 'terror-armies' very hard to make.
- on the other hand - many units in the army will be ItP, so it may even out.
I'd say leave them out.

Removal of other mentioned items IMO would have no big impact on the list. What do You guys think about it?


As a side note - I believe it's worth keeping in mind that magic items list should fit, and so is dependant on, the final shape of the army list itself. So before coming to any final conclusions with MI, we should finish that first.


Another side note - Today I began convertion of models for my CoS army and I deeply belive that there should be following army-wide rule included:

Sexy trendyness - Slaanesh grants all his followers with immunity to low temperatures, therefore allowing them to wear little in the way of clothes, even in the cold north of Naggaroth and Chaos Wastes. ;)


Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:24 pm
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Nice special rule. Makes it in for sure. :D

It would be probably good to put in another +1DD item. Also, I think Pendant Of Khaleth should be out, or at least heavily modified if its to be included.

All the demons cause fear though, so that's already sort of "half inbuilt" though making a truly fear/terror causing army is till difficult.

MA

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Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:17 pm
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Nice special rule. Makes it in for sure. :D

It would be probably good to put in another +1DD item. Also, I think Pendant Of Khaleth should be out, or at least heavily modified if its to be included.

All the demons cause fear though, so that's already sort of "half inbuilt" though making a truly fear/terror causing army is till difficult.

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Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:17 pm
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MartialArtist wrote:
Also, I think Pendant Of Khaleth should be out, or at least heavily modified if its to be included.


Personally I also think it's overpowered, or at least too cheap for what it does, still seeing how controvertial item it is (discussion on it here on druchii.net already reached 4 pages :roll: ) I'd leave it as it is. Those who agree it's overpowered can always make a house rule. I know I will, actually already did - made it Sorceress only item, which solves the problem I think (playtesting will show ;) ), and also fits item's background.

MartialArtist wrote:
All the demons cause fear though, so that's already sort of "half inbuilt" though making a truly fear/terror causing army is till difficult.


True, haven't thought of that. Also, Anointed causes fear and CoS terror, so I guess leaving 'terryfing' items fits.


Last edited by Weenth on Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:46 pm
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Sorry about the double post above. I've tried to remove it, but it won't let me for some reason as the X button indicating delete isn't next to either of my posts for some reason.

Marauders now that I think of it should probably be included, as they were the core behind the original Cult text (Weenth posted above) and it was with them that Morathi formed some of the power of the cult. They should be included and be unrestricted, though I can not see many cult players taking a huge number of them. I also haven't seen their latest rules from WoC, but I assume they are "reasonably" well balanced and don't need modifying?

Marauder Horsemen and Marauders should be fine, rules as Weenth said above are probably fine, though Warriors of Chaos and Knights should still be strictly limited to Anointed bodyguard. I know this has already been said by a few others, but just confirming that I have had a change of mind and am now on the same track.

"2. Daemon binding - in this case - while idea itself fits, and causes no big fluff problems I'd leave it out simply beacause daemon units in the army work well without it (so don't fix it ). Keeping them to special/rare slots for me does enough to limit their use. Only problem might be overuse of core daemonettes - 6th ed list managed this by obligatory 1+ devoted unit, maybe better thing would be making daemonettes not count towards minimum core or moving them to special. "

This idea of finding a way to prevent heavy core demonic units could be solved (with my new perspective) possibly by leaving it as +1 devoted, or maybe +1 marauder unit in the army instead? Just a thought.

I think binding should still be in. Its cool, unique, fluffy and very tactically interesting. I'm of the opinion that all Demons should stay as is in Daemons of Chaos with the only modifiers to them detailed here:

"So here is what I propose for the "Bound To Reality" rule for all Demonic units.
Demonic units Daemonettes, Seekers and Fiends are all bound to a character. Characters that can be binders are High Sorceress (up to 4 bound, same as magic level, Ld 9), Keeper Of Secrets (up to 2 bound, Ld 9), Sorceress (up to 2 bound, Ld 8 ). Heralds and Anointed are neither. Reasoning here is that High/Sorceresses are mortal and channel the energy through them, Keepers are powerful enough to hold themselves into reality and can also support another couple of units, while Heralds are strong enough to hold themselves in the mortal realm, but do not have the extra energy to also bring others with him. Anointed are more bound-spell blessing characters than regulation sorcerers.
Units that are bound can ONLY use the leadership of the character they are bound to (not other characters or the General as usual) and can use it if they are within 12 inches of their binder.
Demonic units must take an Instability test either if they lose a combat (using either their own or their binders, if close enough, modified leadership) or at the start of each Cult players turn in which their binder is not on the battlefield (and thus MUST use their own unmodified leadership, as there binder is dead presumably). This test functions exactly the same as in the Daemons Of Chaos army book, standard leadership test and take no-save, Ward, or regen wounds equal to the amount they fail the test by.
This would come with a drop in leadership for all Bound units. I would think Daemonettes, Seekers and Fiends would all lose 2 lea dership and become Ld 5. This is quite drastic, but means they will usually fall apart without the support of their summoner.
A debate also needs to happen here on whether marked sorceresses can join the Demon units they are binding. I don't really have an opinion on this one. They probably should. Otherwise if a mounted Sorc can't join the Seekers, getting into combat could become too risky and an unfair disavantage for the Cult player. Keepers cannot join their units anyway as they are monsters.
I like these changes as it weakens the demons quite a bit, and makes them reasonably heavily but not totally reliant on the fragile Sorceresses, but also is not too much of a burden on the Cult player, unlike my Summoning circle idea."

Hmmm, so DE warriors would be the new recruits to the Cult, Devoted are those who have been in for a little longer and have been a little more tainted by slaanesh as per "Also - nowhere it is said (AFAIK), that Mark of Chaos God is a blatant tatoo on the skin, at least the way WFRP fluff used to put it, it could be any change, simply a sign that one's brought Chaos's intrest upon himself. And as elves are more resilient to physical corruption it might be mind or sense altering, unnoticable from outside. "?

MA

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Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:22 am
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MartialArtist wrote:
<on Marauders> They should be included and be unrestricted, though I can not see many cult players taking a huge number of them. I also haven't seen their latest rules from WoC, but I assume they are "reasonably" well balanced and don't need modifying?
IMO they are (just got myself WoC .pdf, so finally have 100% sure info ;) ) - basicaly they are a little bit cheaper ('naked' Marauder is now 4 pts, 'naked' Horsman 13), can be marked (MoS costs both of them 10 pts/unit) and have 'The Will of Chaos' rule (re-roll panic). Horsemen are also Fast Cavalry (unless 4+ AS) and 'Horsemasters' (re-roll pursuit roll)

On the Mark issue, I re-thinked it, and now believe that (as opposed to Warriors, Knights, Spawn and Marauder Warlord) Marauder core units should have it as an option rather than obligatory - as marauder units can be also those young and untainted enough not to have it.


MartialArtist wrote:
This idea of finding a way to prevent heavy core demonic units could be solved (with my new perspective) possibly by leaving it as +1 devoted, or maybe +1 marauder unit in the army instead? Just a thought.
Well, +1 obligatory units works well in 2000+ battles, my main issue with it is that in smaller games (like 500 pts border patrol) it limits army compositon (I have to take marked Sorceress and at least basic unit of 10 Devoted - that's almost half of my patrol list set in stone before I can decide anything :( ). How about:
- To include daemons, the army must have at least one other core unit with Mark of Slaanesh.


MartialArtist wrote:
I think binding should still be in. Its cool, unique, fluffy and very tactically interesting. I'm of the opinion that all Demons should stay as is in Daemons of Chaos with the only modifiers to them detailed here:
<detail in Martial Artist's post above - cut out here to save place
As I've written before - I believe it needs a little tweaking to work. My problems with current version:

- joining daemon units by sorceress is against main rulebook - 'breakable characters cannot join unbreakable units' rule was introduced in this edition because of problems such situation caused.

- change to Daemon stat-line (lower Ld) - it's something I'd rather aviod unless it's nessecary; especially as it not only affects their binding roll, but also any other Ld test, including break-tests and effects of magic.

- complication of rules - introducing new rules of course is a complication in itself, but I belive binding could also work in a little simpler form; IMO simplifying is especially important as we already have more units that many armies, and using 3 sub-sets of general army rules at that.

- my main gripe with binding: restriction in usefulness of units - binding requires CoS player to keep his daemon units close to binder. While this can easily work with daemonettes, our other daemon units (Seekers & Fiend) are fast-cavalry type - lightning-fast units, which should get to the enemy (his flanks preferably) as fast as possible, lest they get shot to pieces. This forces binder to ride Steed of Slaanesh (not to slow down his units) and still probably to expose himself to enemy fire (not a best thing for T3 unarmoured sorceress).

So here's my proposition:

- bound unit must remain within 12" of any marked spellcaster
<less paper-work>

- this includes Anointed
<fluff-wise I believe he can be as much of a Sorcerer as normal Sorceress, probably studying magic even before he became Chaos Champion; but more important thing is that Anointed and KoS are our only spellcasters who can realiably expose themselves to a little bit of enemy shooting>

- Herald doesn't have this 12" 'aura', but can protect the unit he joins
<giving another way of 'safely' sending fast daemon unit into enemy lines>

- Daemons remain at Ld 7
<no stat-line modification and still if left alone they're suffer at almost 50% of tests>

<I hope above changes are enough to make binding work well - requires playtesting I guess - something I'm gonna do next week. ;) But before that, on theoretical level still - what do You think of it?>



MartialArtist wrote:
Hmmm, so DE warriors would be the new recruits to the Cult, Devoted are those who have been in for a little longer and have been a little more tainted by slaanesh as per "Also - nowhere it is said (AFAIK), that Mark of Chaos God is a blatant tatoo on the skin, at least the way WFRP fluff used to put it, it could be any change, simply a sign that one's brought Chaos's intrest upon himself. And as elves are more resilient to physical corruption it might be mind or sense altering, unnoticable from outside. "?
That's exactly the way I see it, only adding 'middle-link' between new recruits (warriors) and Devoted - the marked warriors.


As a side note - it struck me that - as Devoted shown in SoC used WE models - all of them are female. As Slaanesh is not actually know for limiting his preferences ;) I think there's also place in fluff for male devoted - and my second unit of them will be converted out of wardancers :P

Another side note - got some thinking about magical items issue, but still need to get that sorted out... will post something next week.


Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:50 am
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Some replies on the binding issue. I think it is a totally awesome rule, and a more commonly agreeable solution can be arrived at with a bit of thinking.

"As I've written before - I believe it needs a little tweaking to work. My problems with current version:

- joining daemon units by sorceress is against main rulebook - 'breakable characters cannot join unbreakable units' rule was introduced in this edition because of problems such situation caused."

Easily fixed. Marked Sorcs are Immune to psychology and if joining a demonic unit they become unbreakable. Just add it into the mark. I know it makes it that little bit more complicated but oh well. However this wouldn't be nessecary if we go for your 12" rule of any sorc sort of thing, which I have included in my revised rule (below).

"- change to Daemon stat-line (lower Ld) - it's something I'd rather aviod unless it's nessecary; especially as it not only affects their binding roll, but also any other Ld test, including break-tests and effects of magic."

That was the point. Maybe you missed that they could always use the LD of their summoner though? This made them reliant on the sorc to boost their LD to a stage where they won't fall apart on their own when in the thick of it, but without the summoner they'd still be (reasonably) alright if they didn't come under TOO much bad attention.

"- complication of rules - introducing new rules of course is a complication in itself, but I belive binding could also work in a little simpler form; IMO simplifying is especially important as we already have more units that many armies, and using 3 sub-sets of general army rules at that."

Yeah, maybe right. Revised rule a bit simpler.

"- my main gripe with binding: restriction in usefulness of units - binding requires CoS player to keep his daemon units close to binder. While this can easily work with daemonettes, our other daemon units (Seekers & Fiend) are fast-cavalry type - lightning-fast units, which should get to the enemy (his flanks preferably) as fast as possible, lest they get shot to pieces. This forces binder to ride Steed of Slaanesh (not to slow down his units) and still probably to expose himself to enemy fire (not a best thing for T3 unarmoured sorceress). "

Again, probably true. I still have the vision that the rule will not overly limit the Cult player, but will give them one more thing to factor in to sort of make up for the combination of multiple armies we've got.

With a combination of your ideas and mine, here's a sort of middle ground (that I do quite like).

Daemonettes, Fiends and Seekers lose 2 Leadership and become Ld 5.
All Daemonettes, Fiends and Seekers have the "Bound To Reality" rule.

Bound To Reality (I still think that's what it should be called): Any unit with this rule may use the leadership of any High Sorceresses or Sorceresses with the Mark of Slaanesh if they are within 12", exactly as if they were the army general.
Any unit with this rule may use the leadership of any Keeper Of Secrets or Druchii Anointed if they are within 6", as if they were the army general but with a shorter range.
Units with this rule may also use the leadership of Herald's that join them as normal.
Units with this rule must take a "Demonic Instability" test (as per DoC) if they lose a combat or if at the start of the Cult player's turn they would be testing on their own leadership if they had to immediately test for panic (ie. they test if not within the leadership bonus range of a High Sorc/Sorc/KoS/Anointed and aren't with a Herald).

I like this. Makes it simpler (as Weenth suggested), includes all the characters (though I think that the KoS and Anointed should be less effective at this than the Sorcs), still makes the Demons vulnerable if left alone and doesn't limit their usefullness as much (I think).

Maybe the Herald could be give the option to ride on a Fiend Of Slaanesh (especially as only has Steed option if we are dropping chariot)?

I definetly think the Sorcs should have more of an effect on the binding rule, as otherwise they are coming close to being a bit too un-useful (as KoS, Anointed and Herald are all spellcasters and better at combat, making Sorcs only useful in magic heavy army) and fluff wise it IS the sorcs who are actually pulling the demons into reality.

Magic Level wise, I think it should be like this:
High Sorcs - Level 3, option for Level 4
Sorcs - Level 1, option for Level 2
KoS - Level 1, option for Level 2
Herald - Level 0, option for Level 1
Anointed - Level 0, option for Level 1 and 2 (though bound spells, see below)

I still think there is a great opportunity to give the Anointed a bit of a different magic ability that would be really cool and fluffy, as maybe they were sorcs as DE, but even if they weren't once they had become of Slaanesh's they would gain some unholy different curses or similar and be able to unleash a bit of Dark Magic/Slaaneshi Magic combination stuff, instead of one or the other. I also see them more as warriors leading from the front, charging into the enemy, and instead of standing around waving their armies, sucking up power and preparing for a massive Black Horror, more muttering a curse or two as they charged at the enemy, possibly imubing a horrific aura to the Chaos warriors running beside him, or causing one or two of the opponents on the front line to fall over clutching their heads as a black spirit erupts through their skull.

Thus, my conclusions on their magic ability expressed earlier.
"There would be a possibility for them to be upgraded from a Level 0 to a Level 1 or 2 Slaanesh magic guy. They wouldn’t use Slaanesh magic, but could cast 1 or 2 “Supplications” (discussed under Daemonic Acropolis) as bound spells per turn depending on level." and "bound spell “Supplications to the Dark Prince” (basically boundspell prayers to Slaanesh, maybe 5 of them, used also by Anointed which I will come to)" and "Anointed should be able to be upgraded to level 1 or 2 wizard, allowing them to cast 1/2 bound spell "Prayers" a turn. At either level they generate 1 DD."

Pretty much, extra "Supplications to the Dark Prince" magic list, 5 spells, all bound spells power level 4 (?) and the Anointed can be upgraded to Level 1 or 2. Level 1 = 1 bound spell per turn, Level 2 = 2 bound spell's/turn and Level 1 or 2 = generate one dispel dice per turn. Simple, different, cool, and is just another take on already common GW stuff (Bound spells etc.). I think that its pretty foolproof but i came up with it!

"MartialArtist said:
Hmmm, so DE warriors would be the new recruits to the Cult, Devoted are those who have been in for a little longer and have been a little more tainted by slaanesh as per "Also - nowhere it is said (AFAIK), that Mark of Chaos God is a blatant tatoo on the skin, at least the way WFRP fluff used to put it, it could be any change, simply a sign that one's brought Chaos's intrest upon himself. And as elves are more resilient to physical corruption it might be mind or sense altering, unnoticable from outside. "?

That's exactly the way I see it, only adding 'middle-link' between new recruits (warriors) and Devoted - the marked warriors. "

? I was thinking on the scale of least-most tainted it was: DE Warriors --> Devoted --> Daemonettes.

Am I right in seeing that you have: DE Warriors (unmarked) --> DE Warriors (marked) --> Devoted --> Daemonettes.

I still don't see why DE Warriors should ever have a mark. Either they are too new to be enough tainted, or they have embraced Slaanesh and have become Devoted. Why need a middle ground?

Some comments on this:
"Well, +1 obligatory units works well in 2000+ battles, my main issue with it is that in smaller games (like 500 pts border patrol) it limits army compositon (I have to take marked Sorceress and at least basic unit of 10 Devoted - that's almost half of my patrol list set in stone before I can decide anything ). How about:
- To include daemons, the army must have at least one other core unit with Mark of Slaanesh. "
You being a little concerned about smaller games, made me think we also want to keep the army theme in bigger games as well, say 5000 pts and not just have one unit of Devoted there and then Demon stacks (if that was the way the player was so inclined they can go play Demons). So we need something that will keep a reasonable balance at 500, 2000 and 5000 pts. My first thought was, GW made Devoted the compulsory ones, and we should try to stick with that as they basically embody the theme and style of the army. My second idea on this was that we could link it to the Army composition chart as that changes with the army size.
How about (called, Followers Of The Cult?): For every full 3 core choices REQUIRED by the army composition sheet, the Cult Player must include one unit of Devoted.
How's that? In under 2000 pts you aren't actually REQUIRED to have devoted, its just an option, and as the game gets to 5000, 8000 etc more Devoted are required.

Just a few thoughts from a different perspective.

Interested to hear about this "magic item" stuff.

MA

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Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:52 am
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BINDING

MartialArtist wrote:
"- change to Daemon stat-line (lower Ld) - it's something I'd rather aviod unless it's nessecary; especially as it not only affects their binding roll, but also any other Ld test, including break-tests and effects of magic."

That was the point. Maybe you missed that they could always use the LD of their summoner though? This made them reliant on the sorc to boost their LD to a stage where they won't fall apart on their own when in the thick of it, but without the summoner they'd still be (reasonably) alright if they didn't come under TOO much bad attention.

I understand that they can get that LD boost from binder (and even a bit better then than without binding rule), but IMO with LD 5 they'll go POOF! fast even during a single turn on their own. Let's say I have 6 Seekers. If alone at begining of my turn they'll statisticaly loose 1/3 unit due to instability and there's 1/6 chance of having only sole survivor. And that's without any attention from enemy.

I know this doesn't look as bad for Daemonettes on foot due to larger numbers, but they probably won't have a problem with staying in range - unlike Seekers and 3W Fiend.


MartialArtist wrote:
Daemonettes, Fiends and Seekers lose 2 Leadership and become Ld 5.
All Daemonettes, Fiends and Seekers have the "Bound To Reality" rule.

Bound To Reality (I still think that's what it should be called): Any unit with this rule may use the leadership of any High Sorceresses or Sorceresses with the Mark of Slaanesh if they are within 12", exactly as if they were the army general.
Any unit with this rule may use the leadership of any Keeper Of Secrets or Druchii Anointed if they are within 6", as if they were the army general but with a shorter range.
Units with this rule may also use the leadership of Herald's that join them as normal.
Units with this rule must take a "Demonic Instability" test (as per DoC) if they lose a combat or if at the start of the Cult player's turn they would be testing on their own leadership if they had to immediately test for panic (ie. they test if not within the leadership bonus range of a High Sorc/Sorc/KoS/Anointed and aren't with a Herald).

I like this. Makes it simpler (as Weenth suggested), includes all the characters (though I think that the KoS and Anointed should be less effective at this than the Sorcs), still makes the Demons vulnerable if left alone and doesn't limit their usefullness as much (I think).

Will give it a test on friday and write the effects here. Still, with small fast units practically unable to leave range of fragile binders (unless you like big risk) I do belive this limits daemon units (other than Daemonettes) usefullness a lot and discourages strongly from taking more than 1 unit of Seekers (with a Herald) and any Fiends at all.

Also - just realised I forgot Furies - which even at their basic Ld will go POOF! 35/36 times when left alone; Will try to find a way to use them on friday's battle though.




MOUNTS

MartialArtist wrote:
Maybe the Herald could be give the option to ride on a Fiend Of Slaanesh (especially as only has Steed option if we are dropping chariot)?

Seems unfluffy to me, as at least since 3th ed. of WFB Fiend was never used as mount. In 6th ed Daemonic Legion SoC list there was a unit of 'quasi-heavy' cavalry, but these were Daemonettes on Steeds of Slaanesh (which used to be 3W monsters then, smaller, 1W steed being called 'Mount of Slaanesh'). So 6th ed Steed of Slaanesh (aka boobworm ;) ) is no longer available in DoC armies and in WoC it's miniature is used now as regular Daemonic Steed (M8, S5,T5,W3).

Also - I believe orignal army (DoC in this case) is a place for maximum options for 'secondary' SoC characters (daemons and chaos mortals); SoC can have as many, but fluff-wise I see no reason for having more.

As a side note - I believe Cold One option for Anointed can be removed. There's a little overkill in his choice of W1 mounts, and, as Anointed causes fear himself, the only bonus over Chaos Steed i stupidity. ;) If you want to model him as CO rider, there's nothing to stop you, especially as Chaos Steed might be mutated into lizard form or CO mutated into a more intelligent creature. ;)


Another side note - what do you think of including option of Daemonic Steed to Anointed (as Chaos Lords have it)? So far he doesn't have any 'heavy' or even 'medium' (Dark Pegasus is rather lite one), can't make my mind at the moment if it's a bad thing or exactly the way it should be.



MAGIC LEVELS

MartialArtist wrote:
I definetly think the Sorcs should have more of an effect on the binding rule, as otherwise they are coming close to being a bit too un-useful (as KoS, Anointed and Herald are all spellcasters and better at combat, making Sorcs only useful in magic heavy army) and fluff wise it IS the sorcs who are actually pulling the demons into reality.

Magic Level wise, I think it should be like this:
High Sorcs - Level 3, option for Level 4
Sorcs - Level 1, option for Level 2
KoS - Level 1, option for Level 2
Herald - Level 0, option for Level 1
Anointed - Level 0, option for Level 1 and 2 (though bound spells, see below)

I think there's no risk of having to little in the way of Sorceresses:

- at least 1 will always be there, as she's the general
- only Sorceresess have access to: Fire, Shadow, Metal, Death lores.
- KoS and Herald have only access to Daemonic Lore of Slaanesh
- Herald is Level 1 at max even in DoC
- KoS is costy, even more so with high magic level, so doing so is similar to taking Supreme Sorceress on a Dragon - 'all eggs in one basket' can work, but can also die horribly to enemy shooting leaving you both without magic and hitting power

So I'd say leave magic levels as they are in respective ABs (though the only change to what you've written is option for 3/4 lvl for KoS)





ANOINTED MAGIC

MartialArtist wrote:
I still think there is a great opportunity to give the Anointed a bit of a different magic ability that would be really cool and fluffy, as maybe they were sorcs as DE, but even if they weren't once they had become of Slaanesh's they would gain some unholy different curses or similar and be able to unleash a bit of Dark Magic/Slaaneshi Magic combination stuff, instead of one or the other. I also see them more as warriors leading from the front, charging into the enemy, and instead of standing around waving their armies, sucking up power and preparing for a massive Black Horror, more muttering a curse or two as they charged at the enemy, possibly imubing a horrific aura to the Chaos warriors running beside him, or causing one or two of the opponents on the front line to fall over clutching their heads as a black spirit erupts through their skull.

[...]

Pretty much, extra "Supplications to the Dark Prince" magic list, 5 spells, all bound spells power level 4 (?) and the Anointed can be upgraded to Level 1 or 2. Level 1 = 1 bound spell per turn, Level 2 = 2 bound spell's/turn and Level 1 or 2 = generate one dispel dice per turn. Simple, different, cool, and is just another take on already common GW stuff (Bound spells etc.). I think that its pretty foolproof but i came up with it!


I do have some issues with that:

- rulewise it is exactly extra spell list - to go with 4 lores in BRB and 3 other lores which either must all be included in CoS manuscirpt or found in 3 separate armybooks; a bit of overkill IMO

- also maybe cool, but not fluffy - Bound Spell Lists in existing belong to priests, and not only Anointed is far from being one, but also generaly Chaos doesn't use such 'Divine Magic' - Chaos Gods simply bless their followers with magical abilites, which use normal magic rules.

- Slaaneshii magic IS Dark Magic in a way - raw stuff of Chaos, just themed to the will of a ceratain Chaos God. And the option to mix both 'pure' and Slaneshii is included in his rules exactly as HE can use all 8 basic lores and the HE - still have to decide on one list simply because of game balance and simplicity.

- Your vision of Anointed is "charging into the enemy and instead of standing around waving their armies more muttering a curse or two as they charged at the enemy". Thats fine. I also can see one that simply charges or one that prefers to soften enemy up with magic. I believe all those visions are fitting Anointed fluff.

BTW being max Lvl 2 he'll probabely do that with magic missiles rather than Black Horrors. ;)




MARKS

MartialArtist wrote:
I was thinking on the scale of least-most tainted it was: DE Warriors --> Devoted --> Daemonettes.

Am I right in seeing that you have: DE Warriors (unmarked) --> DE Warriors (marked) --> Devoted --> Daemonettes.

I still don't see why DE Warriors should ever have a mark. Either they are too new to be enough tainted, or they have embraced Slaanesh and have become Devoted. Why need a middle ground?"

The way I see it it's DE Warriors -> marked DE Warriors -> Devoted [The End]
(or - though unprobable to happen due to time needed:
[Devoted] -> Anointed -> Daemon Prince.

Daemonettes are Lesser Daemons, not tainted elves - fluff-wise big difference (even if less so model and rule wise ;) ).
So Marked Warriors are there to be any middle ground.
My personal reason for that is that it fits vision of my army and models (still, might have those slaneshii DE warriors without mark rule, just like people use normal DE with 'count as')

Other reasons are:

- fluffwise: looking at Marauders and Chaos Warriors - being marked doesn't mean you get all-round better; that's why I think there should be middle ground.

- rulewise: Marks give Warriors upgrade options - getting ItP and equipping them with Slaaneshii magic banner; I believe it makes them more versilate and protects from becoming bleak choice when compared with other CoS core.




UNIT LIMITS

MartialArtist wrote:
How about (called, Followers Of The Cult?): For every full 3 core choices REQUIRED by the army composition sheet, the Cult Player must include one unit of Devoted.
How's that? In under 2000 pts you aren't actually REQUIRED to have devoted, its just an option, and as the game gets to 5000, 8000 etc more Devoted are required.

This option would be quite liberal - no problem with such number of complusory units, but one still can have 2/3 (sometimes more) core daemons and special and rare daemons as well.

Also, personally I think it's not lack of Devoted but rather too many daemons that is a problem. I can imagine force consisting mostly of marauders (aka cannon fodder ;) ) with few or only one DE unit bodyguarding the sorceress, even no DE if this is a small force. I can also see one where normal, unmarked DE are majority - sort of 'undercover' Cult force.

Thus I believe it's more question of how to restrict daemons. Could be something like:
- no more daemon units than marked mortal units
or simply:
- no more daemon units than other units

Such solution also scales up and down easily is more restrictive on daemons and still make no single unit a 'must-take'.


The scaling issue also reminded me of our 0-1 choices, which is problematic for big battles.

For characters (Herald and Marauder Warlord) simple solution is to change each 0-1 to 'no more X than lord choices allowed', thus in 2000 games they're still 0-1 each, in smaller they can't be taken and in bigger, like 5000 are still secondary in numbers, but not insignificant.

Not sure what to do about Furies though. Maybe make them normal special choice simply? Or even core-not-counting-toward-minimum? With general restriction of daemons there hardly be too many units of these.





MartialArtist wrote:
Interested to hear about this "magic item" stuff.


I've writen all ideas in Word so far - so 5 minutes for C&P and it'll be ready. ;) Although I think I'll put them in separate topic, and leave this topic for units & general army rules discussion - no need for even longer post. ;)


Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:23 pm
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Weenth: Under Marks

I know Daemonettes were different to elves, but just wanted in my chart to sort of emphasize that on the scale of Slaanesh, elves and devoted will always be less than Daemonettes, who are actually manifestations of Slaanesh himself (I think) as no elf can ever BE a part of slaanesh.

Marks, hmmmm, yeeeeeah, uhhhh, never really been sold on marked DE, though I suppose if you make it mostly a mental thing than its probably fine. Would marked DE lose Eternal Hatred (by GW rules and/or and by ours)?

Very true about the magic banners. That might be the tipping point for me.

Anointed Magic

"BTW being max Lvl 2 he'll probabely do that with magic missiles rather than Black Horrors. " (sorry I don't use the quote thing, but I like to use quick reply so I can always refer back to the main forum).

Depends on whether he gets Druchii Sorcery or not....

Which leads to the debate: Anointed do/don't get PoD and/or Druchii Sorcery. I really want to ensure that the Sorcs stay the main spellcasters of the army, even if there are so many other options for magic, so maybe if the Anointed loses one or both of the uniquely DE magic abilities (as he hasn't spent whole life learning magic) than that would limit him a bit.

It is also true that there are plenty of magic lores as it is. Oh well, maybe just have to give up on that one.

Unit limits

I am with you on the Daemonic units being less than mortal units, but also still think there should be a mandatory Devoted for the army, as they were in the original and are basically the fundamental cultists. So maybe both unit of Devoted for every 3 required core and Cult player may never have more units(/characters?) with the "Daemonic" rule than units(/characters?) with "Mark Of Slaanesh"?

Idea for heralds and marauder guy is good. Fits well with my devoted restriction idea too.

Furies are probably fine as minimum not counting plus daemon restrictions. They should be viable for 1-2 units but unlikely/impossible to be spammed.

Mounts

Anointed can defiently lose Cold One option.

I always had in mind that I would be able to model my Anointed on the awesome boobworm snake thing, and he should have either a "Serpent Of Slaanesh" or "Daemonic Mount" option. I also invented a special character based on this which I might post later..

Not sure now what you think the Anointed's mount options should be.

I thought
Chaos Steed
Daemonic Mount

and does he need anything else?

Binding

I was hoping that the Daemons would fall apart pretty quickly if without binders, but I suppose a similar (but less likely to COMPLETELY restrict) effect is fine if they stay Ld 7 but DO have instability test each turn if outside of range.

Other stuff

Are shades making it into our list? Just a little confused about this. And same with Slaaneshi Cold Ones Knights? They were originally in but they seem to sort of have been forgotten...

MA

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Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:00 am
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