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Cult of Slaanesh rewrite discussion 
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Black Guard
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Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:47 pm
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Marks

MartialArtist wrote:
I know Daemonettes were different to elves, but just wanted in my chart to sort of emphasize that on the scale of Slaanesh, elves and devoted will always be less than Daemonettes, who are actually manifestations of Slaanesh himself (I think) as no elf can ever BE a part of slaanesh.

Ok, just wanted to sort this one out. BTW any elf (or even human) follower can achieve being part of Slaanesh... I'm just not sure if having ones soul sucked and destroyed to fuel Chaos god's power is the way they want it... well, most of them will get it anyway. ;)

MartialArtist wrote:
Marks, hmmmm, yeeeeeah, uhhhh, never really been sold on marked DE, though I suppose if you make it mostly a mental thing than its probably fine. Would marked DE lose Eternal Hatred (by GW rules and/or and by ours)

Very true about the magic banners. That might be the tipping point for me.

by all earlier GW rules they should keep EH:
- CoK keep their EH and stupidity when ItP
- Witch Elves keep EH when frenzied
- 6th ed Marked units in CoS kept Hates High Elves rule

Also, would MoS remove EH, we again would have an issue of bonus that actually makes unit worse (as EH>ItP), so I believe they should keep it.



Anointed Magic

MartialArtist wrote:
"BTW being max Lvl 2 he'll probabely do that with magic missiles rather than Black Horrors. " (sorry I don't use the quote thing, but I like to use quick reply so I can always refer back to the main forum).

Depends on whether he gets Druchii Sorcery or not....

Which leads to the debate: Anointed do/don't get PoD and/or Druchii Sorcery. I really want to ensure that the Sorcs stay the main spellcasters of the army, even if there are so many other options for magic, so maybe if the Anointed loses one or both of the uniquely DE magic abilities (as he hasn't spent whole life learning magic) than that would limit him a bit.


I do believe he should keep both - 1Lvl Sorceress has both and hardly spent whole life learning - even if she would, what would be just a small percent of Anointed life, as fluffwise they were born even before Dark Elves existed as Dark Elves and were one of the first to use Dark Magic. So from background point of view it's hard not to let him have DS and PoD.

As for Sorceresses being main spellcasters, that's already so in 2000 pts (1 Sorceress, max 1 Anointed, if you want more 2lvl wizards the only choice is another sorceress) and smaller armies (Sorceress is the only wizard option).

So the only problem would be 3000+ armies that go low on magic ('medium magic' and 'magic heavy' armies are no problem, as all other options than Sorceress are limited in numbers).

I believe that's a small issue, especially as on one hand even such army can be explained fluff-wise (as in: in this case Cult's Sorceresses decided to keep political leadership and let the other do the fighting and life-risking) and on the other, playing big battles many Army Books allow for 'strange' army composition.



Unit limits

MartialArtist wrote:
I am with you on the Daemonic units being less than mortal units, but also still think there should be a mandatory Devoted for the army, as they were in the original and are basically the fundamental cultists. So maybe both unit of Devoted for every 3 required core and Cult player may never have more units(/characters?) with the "Daemonic" rule than units(/characters?) with "Mark Of Slaanesh"?

A couple of thoughts:
- Personally I dislike mandatory choices, but that's just my thing. ;)
- Balance-wise I see no problem with proposed restriction on Devoted: they're a good choice, so would expect most players to take at least that one unit (in 2000-5,999 battles), even if not mandatory.
- also Balance-wise not taking Devoted doesn't hurt army balance.
- from rule economics PoV - with all the unit choice and unaviodable mix of army rules I'd say 'the less rules, the better'. Still, that would be just one more sentence.


So generally rule-wise it works well both ways. The key point for me would be the fluff PoV.

My opinion - as written before - is that there's a place for 2000+ army without them. (unlike CoS army without Sorcesses). After all not every army must include 'inner circle' cultist. Some can be forces where there are only dispendable units (like initates to the Cult, DE Warriors not of the Cult and Marauders) - especially if the Sorceress-general expects most of the army to die in order to achieve victory.

+1 was needed in 6th ed list IMO as otherwise the army could easily end up as single mandatory Sorceress in a Chaos Mortal/Daemons force bolstered by Scouting (2 units of Shades fill the core-minimum quite easily and also give Chaos something it lacks). With all the other restrictions we've put I don't think there is such a risk now.



Mounts

MartialArtist wrote:
I always had in mind that I would be able to model my Anointed on the awesome boobworm snake thing, and he should have either a "Serpent Of Slaanesh" or "Daemonic Mount" option. I also invented a special character based on this which I might post later..


Great. :) I've given some thought to SC on general level (what types, how many, which existing characters fit), but very little on concrete new characters, so interesting ideas are needed. :) Will try to post those general ideas later today or tommorow as a framework for new SC.

MartialArtist wrote:
Not sure now what you think the Anointed's mount options should be.

I thought
Chaos Steed
Daemonic Mount

Originaly also had Steed of Slaanesh (now in 1W form, still fits I think), Cold One (now gone) and Dark Steed (fluff-wise fits, and needed to allow him keep up with DR unit if he joins one - SoS is still quite costy)



Binding

MartialArtist wrote:
I was hoping that the Daemons would fall apart pretty quickly if without binders, but I suppose a similar (but less likely to COMPLETELY restrict) effect is fine if they stay Ld 7 but DO have instability test each turn if outside of range.


Ok, as said, I'll give it a try on friday (2000 pts against WE). BTW do we have anyone else interested in playtesting?



Other stuff

MartialArtist wrote:
Are shades making it into our list? Just a little confused about this. And same with Slaaneshi Cold Ones Knights? They were originally in but they seem to sort of have been forgotten...


Shades - definitly; SCOK - I'd put them in too.

Currently I'd see the list as:
(leaving out most options, point cost and general army rules, as I have to go in a moment... will try to post full updated version later... together with SC stuff and ideas on Chaos Gifts... whew, this project is indeed time-consuming ;) )

daemonic - there may not be more of these units in total than other units
warband - can only be included if Anointed is present


CHARACTERS
LORDS
Keeper of the Secrets (takes Lord+Hero choice)
Supreme Sorceress (may be marked)
Anointed (marked)

HEROES
Master (may be marked, if so, can be BSB)
Sorceress (may be marked)
Daemonic Herald (no more Heralds than Lord choices allowed)
Marauder Warlord (marked, no more MW than Lord choices allowed)

UNITS
CORE
DE Warriors (may be marked)
DE Crossbowmen (may be marked)
Devoted (marked)
Marauders (may be marked)
Mounted Marauders (may be marked)
Daemonettes (daemonic)
Furies (daemonic, do not count toward core minimum)

SPECIAL
Shades (may be marked)
Dark Riders (may be marked)
Slaneshii Cold One Knights (marked)
Seekers of Slaanesh (daemonic)
Warriors of Slaanesh (marked, warband)

RARE
Reaper Bolt Thrower (may be marked)
Altar of Slaanesh (marked)
Fiend of Slaanesh (daemonic)
Knights of Slaanesh (marked, warband, 1 unit per Anointed)
Spawn of Slaanesh (warband)

Looking at it now I wonder if Furies shouldn't go to special after all - we plenty of other core choices, but as many Special as Rare, which seem wrong to me.


Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:29 am
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Executioner

Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 9:34 pm
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Man what a topic! A little too much text in this thread for me to read through just now, but here's my take on the matter.

First of all, I'd love to have the Cult of Pleasure as a viable army in 7th ed., so by all means I'll gladly support the idea of making an update of the Cult for 7th ed.

And with that out of the way, here goes...


I love the idea of the Cult of Pleasure. In my view it adds depth to the Druchii background, and it's been an integral part of the history of the race for a LONG time. For this reason alone, I believe that it's existence is warranted, and I believe that GW, sadly enough, has elected to pass over a great opportunity by not letting them feature more prominently in the fluff.

Anyway. The 6th ed. version of the CoP was not bad IMO, but I must admit that it bothered me to hell that mortal units were featured so heavily in the army. It was alright from a fluff perspective, given the whole Storm of Chaos thing and all, but it is something that I'd really like to see changed, if we are to update the Cult to 7th ed.

With regards to the whole Slaanesh/not Slaanesh/something else issue, I must admit that I really have not problem whatsoever in letting some Dark Elves worship an aspect of Slaanesh. Maybe they'll call it something else (Atharti), but I really like the idea that it might be some limited aspect of Slaanesh, in the same manner that some people, and arguably some of the fluff, argue that Khaine is some aspect of Khorne. Some like that idea, others don't. Personally I love it, as I believe that it just makes the whole world and pantheon thing that more complex. It would also fit in well with some of the Chaos books released by Black Library.
For the above reason, I have absolutely no problem with letting the Cult having access to Slaanesh daemons, magic, and items. If need be we can play around with the names a bit, but generally I see no reason to make things more complex than need be.

I'm under the impression that there has been some discussion regarding the Anointed. Personally I'd leave him as in 6th ed., including the T4. We are talking about creatures that have been wandering the Chaos Wastes since the time of the Sundering. It might be "out of character" with the Dark Elf army in general, but IMO the Anointed shouldn't really be compared with a regular Elf/Druchii, but rather with a Chaos Lord. And in that regard, I believe that the Anointed was right as he was. Heck, there is even some old official fluff that mentions that Elves that have devoted themselves to Chaos make are some of the most dangerous and powerful Champions of Chaos, so I don't believe that it's without merit.

As for Daemons in the Cult army, I'd want them in there, but I would also want them to be a limited part of the army, and I'd want them to be more like support type troops, rather than making out the main body of the army.

With regards to the "Mark of Slaanesh" issue, then I'd view it is this way: The Mark is not a physical and visible brand, but rather it's a mental change to the individual that makes him/her Immune to Psychology. It need not even be a "gift" from Slaanesh, but it would just use the same rules, and rather than come up with another term for the same thing, I'd just use the "Mark of Slaanesh" term.
Additionally, I'd want all units in the army to come with the Mark of Slaanesh as default.

Anyway, my suggestion for the Cult army would be:


Characters:
High Sorceress - Access to Dark, Slaanesh, Death, & Shadow magic.
Anointed - As 6th ed.
0-1 Keeper of Secrets - 1 Lord + 1 Rare choice, not able to be General, and only possible to include if the General of the army is a 4th lvl. High Sorceress. Hence not possible to bring in smaller than 3000 pts. games

Heroes:
Master
Sorceress


Core:
1+ Devoted - Rules as in 6th ed.
Warriors - Option for Additional Hand Weapon in stead of Spear.
Repeater Crossbowmen - Option for 2 RHB in stead of standard RXB.
Shades - Only 1st unit count towards minimum no. of Core choices. If you include more than 1 unit of Shades pr. 1000 pts. additional units count as Special.

Special:
Dark Riders
*Dread Knights - Knights on Barded Steeds of Chaos that cause Fear. Lance, Heavy Armour, Shield, Hand Weapon, Magical Standard option, 25 pts. magical item option for Champion.
0-X Daemonettes - No upgrade options at all, and only 1 unit of Daemons pr. Sorceress, High Sorceress, or Anointed in the army!
0-X Seekers of Slaanesh - No upgrade options at all, and only 1 unit of Daemons pr. Sorceress, High Sorceress, or Anointed in the army!
0-1 Furries - Only 1 unit of Daemons pr. Sorceress, High Sorceress, or Anointed in the army!

Rare:
Reaper Boltthrower - 2 pr. Rare slot
0-X Fiend of Slaanesh - No upgrade options at all, and only 1 unit of Daemons pr. Sorceress, High Sorceress, or Anointed in the army!



*Dread Knight Chaos Steeds
MA WS BS S T W I A Ld
9 4 - 4 3 1 4 1 5
Barding
I'd want to change the Cold One Knights, as riding these beasts would require the Nobles to smear themselves with that sense-numbing slime. I just can't really envision someone devoted to, among other things, physical sensation willingly deprive themselves of their ability to feel things.



Magical Items:
I'll leave this for another time, but I'd want some modifications to the standard list of items available to the Dark Elves, and I'd want access to some Chaos items (Slaanesh only items?) in stead.


/Kyrel


Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:19 am
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Corsair
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Kyrel! Welcome to the project!!

It's good to have you on with us, especially if it means it isn't just weenth and I doing everything, some more perspectives always great.

When you have some time, read through all that stuff that Weenth and I wrote, though I do appreciate that that is some task.

In regards to all this
"Anyway. The 6th ed. version of the CoP was not bad IMO, but I must admit that it bothered me to hell that mortal units were featured so heavily in the army. It was alright from a fluff perspective, given the whole Storm of Chaos thing and all, but it is something that I'd really like to see changed, if we are to update the Cult to 7th ed.

With regards to the whole Slaanesh/not Slaanesh/something else issue, I must admit that I really have not problem whatsoever in letting some Dark Elves worship an aspect of Slaanesh. Maybe they'll call it something else (Atharti), but I really like the idea that it might be some limited aspect of Slaanesh, in the same manner that some people, and arguably some of the fluff, argue that Khaine is some aspect of Khorne. Some like that idea, others don't. Personally I love it, as I believe that it just makes the whole world and pantheon thing that more complex. It would also fit in well with some of the Chaos books released by Black Library.
For the above reason, I have absolutely no problem with letting the Cult having access to Slaanesh daemons, magic, and items. If need be we can play around with the names a bit, but generally I see no reason to make things more complex than need be.

I'm under the impression that there has been some discussion regarding the Anointed. Personally I'd leave him as in 6th ed., including the T4. We are talking about creatures that have been wandering the Chaos Wastes since the time of the Sundering. It might be "out of character" with the Dark Elf army in general, but IMO the Anointed shouldn't really be compared with a regular Elf/Druchii, but rather with a Chaos Lord. And in that regard, I believe that the Anointed was right as he was. Heck, there is even some old official fluff that mentions that Elves that have devoted themselves to Chaos make are some of the most dangerous and powerful Champions of Chaos, so I don't believe that it's without merit.

As for Daemons in the Cult army, I'd want them in there, but I would also want them to be a limited part of the army, and I'd want them to be more like support type troops, rather than making out the main body of the army.

With regards to the "Mark of Slaanesh" issue, then I'd view it is this way: The Mark is not a physical and visible brand, but rather it's a mental change to the individual that makes him/her Immune to Psychology. It need not even be a "gift" from Slaanesh, but it would just use the same rules, and rather than come up with another term for the same thing, I'd just use the "Mark of Slaanesh" term. "
once you have read through everything else written, you'll realise this is sort of where we are heading anyway.

Army list wise, see other stuff.

Weenth: Some comments on your list.

Warband = one warband unit per Anointed, yeah?
I think Shades should be split to be 2 units, say "Bloodclan Shades" (Core, same as DE book but 4WS and BS, no upgrade for great weapons or bloodshade, don't count to min core, and possibly lose "Scout" rule?) and "Blackspine shades" (same as DE book). I can easily imagine the cult equipping a few of the warriors as skirmishers even though they wouldn't form the bulk of the army, with a few elite and specialized scouts being brought in when nessecary. Just opens up a few more options.

My special character is largely undeveloped and just written on the spur of the moment, needs a points cost and will also need to be adjusted to fit with the rules from which he is extrapolated (ie he is an Anointed so will get Anointed rules etc.)

Anyway, here he is:

Morgoth - Most Exalted Of The Anointed
Weapons and Armour: Lance, Enchanted Chaos Armour (2+ save), Shield.
Mount: Morgoth is mounted on his Serpent Of Slaanesh (what it should be called)/Daemonic Mount/Steed Of Slaanesh (boobworm thing in any case) Baskilla.
Magic: Morgoth is a Level 1 Wizard and may use Dark or Slaaneshi Magic.

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
Morgoth 6 8 7 5 3 3 8 6 10
Baskilla 10 5 0 4 4 3 5 2 8

Morgoth Special Rules: Eternal Hatred, Fear, Dismount, Mark Of Slaanesh, Demonic Ward Save, Slaanesh's Warrior

Baskilla Special Rules: Eternal Hatred, Fear, Scaly Skin (5+), Poisoned Attacks, Demonic, Slaanesh's Control

Special Rules:
Dismount: At the start of the Cult player's Movement phase, Morgoth may dismount from Baskilla. Morgoth is placed on foot in base to base contact with Baskilla. Both models than count as separate units, Morgoth as a character on foot and Baskilla as a monster. Both models may move as normal for that turn, including for charging. If Morgoth and Baskilla are in base to base contact during Cult player's movement phase, he may remount Baskilla and the model's remaining move is determined by Baskilla's remaining movement options, returning to the usual rider-monstrous mount rules. Morgoth may only mount/dismount Baskilla once per turn.
Slaanesh's Warrior: When Morgoth is mounted upon Baskilla, they both become Unbreakable. In addition, in any combats involving Morgoth mounted upon Baskilla count only wounds for combat resolution, banners, ranks and other bonuses being ignored. Should Morgoth and Baskilla be on the losing side of the combat, they will suffer a strength 5 hit for every point they lost the combat by, the hits being apportioned as the Cult player desires but with no more hits being able to be apportioned to Baskilla or Morgoth than their remaining wounds. Excess wounds are applied if Morgoth and/or Baskilla survive.
Slaanesh's Control: Should Morgoth die, Baskilla does not roll on the Monster Reaction chart but instead automatically passes and from then on fights with hatred in every round of combat (against any enemy) he is a part of, instead of just the first.

What do you think? Needs a points value, but I would think about 400, 250ish for boosted Anointed stats, 35 for magic level, 60 for Baskilla and 65ish for extra rules and Chaos armour. The idea behind him was that Slaanesh had specially gifted Morgoth with Baskilla for his good service, and that this gifting had created a special bond between the two so that they can fight independatly or when togethor they ignore all daunting situations and just continue fighting, though doing so can leave them in situations where they are taking hits from all sides.
In game terms they are versatile in that they can separate, and when combined can kill enough to butcher through the enemy, their (the opponents) extra bonus' being no inspiration against the sheer speed and killing power of the two.

MA

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Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:00 am
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Black Guard
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Welcome Kyrel! Great to see another CoS fan posting here. Hope you will continue with your input. :)

As MartialArtist wrote, ideas so far have gone in a way similiar to what you write. Those few things that differ are CoK and (just a bit) MoS isusse I guess.

- on CoK - it's true that numbing senses doesn't fit Slaaneshii followers; OTH Cold Ones were in the 6th ed CoS list and seeing how cool they are (especially with new models) some of us wanted them included. Background wise they're CoK who decided to devote themselves to Slaanesh to regain (even improve) the ability to feel, which they lost.

- on Mark of Slaanesh - there was quite a discussion on that one (got also past stage of 'none but devotees and anointed have it' ;) ). What we've come up with so far is that some units (like Devoted) should have it by default and others (like DE Warriors) as an option. This is because even in human Slaneshii armies not all followers are Marked and - being arrogant as they are - DE are less likely to put on them something, which can be seen as sing of servitude (not that Chaos Gods always leave the choice ;) ).




MA, on your comments:

Warband restriction
Initially I thought that restricting knights to 1 per anointed is enough, now that you mention it, I think restricting spawns and warriors (especially latter, as are special and therefore more available) would be good. I do believe 1 warband choice in total (per anointed) is a bit harsh, especially as it seem strange to me to see Anointed accompanied by two mindless spawns and no warriors.
So I guess:
Warband - one such choice can be included per each Anointed present in the army
is better - this way we'll see none to three at most Warband units with Anointed, which I believe fluff-wise is ok size for a small warband.


Shades
I don't think that creating 'core sub-shades' unit is needed. Fluff-wise regular DE army might have few warriors equipped as skirmishers as well, yet they don't - so a really good reason on the rules/balance side would be needed.

The way I see it, Shades were core in 6th CoS, because someone thought 'hey, we're moving fast cavalry to special; unless we put skirmishers or flyers as core, they'll end up with just regular M5/4 infantry'
In current version of the list (even with Furies as special) we have (albeit more CC than shooty) fast cavalry unit (Marauder Horsmen) and M6 infantry to boot (Daemonettes), so we have some diversity in that aspect.

Also - most importantly IMO - with the choices listed in my previous post we already have 24 options in total. Comparing this to other similiar armies:
DE - 19 (including assasin)
HE - 19
WE - 18 (counting scout upgrade as a separate unit)
WoC - 21
DoC - 23 (including chariot as separate unit)
6th ed CoS - 19
I believe we shouldn't introduce any more new units, and TBH if anything on this matter, try to find a unit or two which can be removed from the list.

Balance-wise I believe we could do without:
- Marauder Horsmen (if Furies are core)
- CoK
- Furies
- Altar of Slaanesh
- Spawn
but fluff-wise I think all of these should stay. CoK might be an exception, if we decide not to modify their fluff - although I'm all for leaving them in. ;)


Morgoth
interesting idea; need some time to think about him and have things ready to write down (general SC stuff and Chaos Gifts), so I'll do that first.


Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:08 am
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Executioner

Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 9:34 pm
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Thanks for the wellcome. A quick comment/question on the "Dismount" rule you suggest. Why this rule? As such it's not badly written or anything, but why enable Morgoth to dismount from Baskilla? What purpose do you see this special rule fulfill? As you may have gathered by now, I'm not a real fan of this particular rule, as I just find it too complex. and too pointless. Not to mention that it basically goes against the general rules for riders and mounts. Basically I'd say scrap it.

As a side note, could you pls. try and play around with some other names, besides Morgoth. I'm sitting here and getting associations to Beastmen and the Silmarillion. Somehow the name just doesn't feel elven/druchii to me.

And finally, what's this guy's backstory? As I'm generally opposed to the use of Special Characters in the game, the background is really the most important to me. Also, I've commonly found it easier to make up an interesting character with special rules, once I have worked out the background, since this provides both explanation and justification for the existence of a given special rule.


Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:35 pm
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Lord General Of Khaine
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Ok, i have kinda been caught up with work and don't really have time to go through everything right now and comment on it like i said i would, but if someone wants to PM me with a project outline and background questions i will see what i can do to help and possibly sticky it. (because i can see some gaps as it were in some of the background)

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"For every victory there is a defeat, for every defeat there is a victory. My victory, my defeat are for all to see..."
Khael Vraneth, Lord-General of Khaine.


Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:51 pm
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Corsair
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I don't really understand the reasoning of a Spawn in the CoS list. Why would a spawn want to join a cult? I also don't think they are that great and from my point of view can happily go.

Marauder Horesman I think should definetly stay, especially if both Seekers and DR are special, and the fluff heavily supports this.

Furies... I'm not sure. They aren't particularly Slaaneshi, but the Cult does need some options for flying things... Or maybe we don't? That would be a bit different. Especially since we haven't really sorted out the Binding rules completely but it seems in any case you wouldn't be able to do what you wanted with them without having them fall apart. Furies out?

CoK's and Altar are both up for grabs. I still like both and want them to stay, but can see the reasoning for them to go. Not sure.

Warbands
[color=#]"Warband restriction
Initially I thought that restricting knights to 1 per anointed is enough, now that you mention it, I think restricting spawns and warriors (especially latter, as are special and therefore more available) would be good. I do believe 1 warband choice in total (per anointed) is a bit harsh, especially as it seem strange to me to see Anointed accompanied by two mindless spawns and no warriors.
So I guess:
Warband - one such choice can be included per each Anointed present in the army
is better - this way we'll see none to three at most Warband units with Anointed, which I believe fluff-wise is ok size for a small
warband. "
[/color]

My vision of the warband was that the Anointed had ONLY one unit with him, who formed his bodyguard or subcommanded troops on the battlefield. As above, I think spawn should be out, so the one TOTAL choice means he is either not accompanied or has a block of warriors or some knights with him. Chaos Warriors were never a big part of the CoS, and all along the different style of Chaos Mortals to the DE and Daemons has meant it's been thought to keep mortals VERY limited, though they still can have a small part. I think this is the way to do it.

If the warband could have up to 3 units in it, than the Cult player in 2k points could buy an anointed and have 20 Warriors, 5 Knights, 2 Spawn and have approximately 600 points of mortals plus the 200-300 points of the Anointed!! That's about half of the army right there. Without any upgrades, marks, command group etc.!! This seems like way too many for a small subsection of the cult army, being composed primarily of DE, Daemons and Marauders. I think Anointed plus one regiment of Knights or Chaos Warriors is well enough.

But that's just me.

I also have had a bit of think on what we should have in our "publication", and concluded that we have the opportunity to not only do the army list and a bit of background, but expand further and have loads of extra material, the sort of stuff you wish was in every GW armybook but somehow never appears. Maybe I'm aiming a bit high, but this is what I thought our "What's in the book" could look like:

• The Cult Of Slaanesh: Origins And Annals
All of the background information, history of the Cult Of Slaanesh, fiction works from many contributors and introduction of the feel of the Cult can be found here.

• Soldiers Of The Sect
Stats and special rules for every character, troop type and war machine able to be fielded in a Slaaneshi Cult army can be found in this section.

• Legions Of Excess
Check these pages for glorious photos of the many models available to the Cult army, example armies painted by the contributors and modeling tips for personalizing your own religious force.

• Religious Relics
Here can be found comprehensive rules for all of the magical items from weapons to banners that can be wielded by Cult Heroes and Heroines as well as Demonic Gifts able to be bestowed upon the Anointed and Marauder Warlord.

• The Faithful Assembly
The fully compiled army list, allowing you to select your army ready for battle and using the points system fight an even battle with any other Warhammer player.

• Vanquishers And Hired Hands
Special characters unique to the Cult Of Slaanesh can be found here, with their accompanying backgrounds and rules along with notes on including Dogs of War mercenaries such as the notorious Mengil Manhide and his Manflayers as part of your sect.

• Demons And Dice
Suggestions, hints and tips for making your force into a formidable opposition on the battlefield and tactics for once battle has been joined! Several example army lists of all sizes are also included to give you some ideas on starting your own host.

• The Cult Marches To War!
Battle reports featuring the Cult in action! Read here for some of the Cult’s creators trying their hands with the armylist they wrote and others attempting to master the fine art of slaying for Slaanesh.

• Conflict Of Faith
Khaine versus Slaanesh in this additional material suggested for running your own civil cult struggle, as battles rage through Dark Elf streets and the bleak landscapes of Naggaroth. Extra rules and scenarios form a basis for coming up with your own narrative campaign.

• Reference, Credits And Acknowledgements
All the people who submitted things to this book, the painters, writers, artists, modelers, editors and designers put so much work into this publication that we feel they deserve there minute in the limelight. Also here is a handy reference sheet for playing your tabletop battles.

As you can see, there's plenty to work on, is it all doable? I think it would be so awesome if we could include it all, and would really enrich the experience for those wanting to give our unofficial rules a shot. It'll be a bit of effort, but i think ultimately worth it.

MA

_________________
Strike hard and fast, but strike silently.

Revive the Cult! http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t= ... sc&start=0


Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:00 pm
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Black Guard
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Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:47 pm
Posts: 270
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Had a battle against woodies yesterday. :) I managed to massacre his army (we stoped playing after turn 3 as it was no longer fun), although I don't think this says anything on general power of the wip CoS list, rather total luck on my side and his bad luck:

- he started, 1st turn he managed to miscast his second (last) spell, allowing me to cast Ecstatic Seizures for free, unstopped

- on second turn I managed to get Power of Darkness through both with Sorceress and Anointed, getting max dice each time (as I used 2 to cast PoD this resulted in effectively 4 PD for each) and both of them cast their spells on those 4 dice - each time resulting in Irresistable force! :shock:

- so before the start of second turn, his two kitted-out units of Wild Riders were practically wiped out

- when on 3 turn his Lord on Forest Dragon managed to panic because of archer unit broken nearby, we decided not to continue...

- and that's leaving out less spectacular luck examples in this battle ;)



Anyway, went a bit off-topic here. As there were three other issues I tried to test with this battle, here are the comments:

1. Power level of Anointed - can't really comment on that. He had big luck with magic and haven't seen any real fight

2. Usefullness of Marauder Horsmen - as expected, useful, but not as mobile as DR.

3. Usefullness of Daemons with binding rules (I played with version of 12" of any mortal CoS spellcaster) - took 5 Seekers with Herald and Sorceress on SoS and with PoK (for protection against those blasted archers ;) ) to 'babysit' 6 Furies and unit of 2 Fiends, Anointed was to work on his own and give protection from instability to units, should other characters die or be out of range.

- Seekers with Herald work very well, but are quite costy, so in no way can be used as 'suicide squad'

- Fiends had problems with keeping up with Furies - no risk of being marchblocked is Furies' important feature; (Sorceress was farer on the flank, so had no enemies within 8")

- To prevent Furies from falling apart after 1 turn of fight with Archers, Sorceress had to get in archers' (12 of them) shooting range; while they only had one turn to shot (and needed to ignore approaching Furies & Fiends to do so) and Sorceress protected by Ward she suffered a 1 (statistically it would be 1,5 wound, so she had luck to survive)

- This I believe may be a problem - as killing the Sorceress would not only left me without 2lvls of magic, but also Furies and with Fiends wounded (Anointed would be able to get to them in one turn) and keeping her out of range would have the same killing effect for daemons. Would it be Supreme Sorceress, archers would still have a decent chance of killing her and the loss would be even worse


Hence my proposition:

- Make binding range 24" for Supreme Sorceress, 'in the unit' for Herald and 18" for other spellcasters.

- give also 12" binding range to Altar of Slaanesh - so that characters might be out and away with fast units and still allowing for use of footed daemonettes (that is of course it stays as a separate unit and not a mount for Sorceress - would have normal 18" range in latter case)

- Remove the option of using caster's Ld - Seekers & Fiends don't really need it and I believe on Furies it is too good

- This way binding won't be such a burden, while stoping to be a bonus on the other hand




MartialArtist wrote:
I don't really understand the reasoning of a Spawn in the CoS list. Why would a spawn want to join a cult? I also don't think they are that great and from my point of view can happily go.
As mindless creature it wouldn't want to join, nor protest. I assume spawns used to be Slaaneshi followers once and now have no will of their own, simply following/being gauded by rest of warband.

As for sentiments and rules - I really like randomness of a spawn. CoS contains very little of that (large number of PD and therefore miscast chace => bigger use of miscast table and that's about it). I believe that as an army closer to Chaos than regular DE, CoS should have a bit more of that. Though maybe enough would be to include Eye of God table and try to give it some more use.

Now that I think of it, this might be a good way:
- change EoG table to Eye of Slaanesh (with things like ASF and +1M instead of unfluffy bonuses like +1 T)
- use its challange rules for Anointed, MW and Master with MoS (may not refuse challenges, when character kills an opponent in a challange or kills a model with 'large target' rule, roll once on the table; result applies for the rest of the battle
- make Altar of Slaanesh akin to Chaos Warshrine in this, that instead of granting specific, chosen bonus (as is with CoB) you choose a unit within 24", and then roll on the Eye of Slaanesh table to see the result (and it applies for 1 turn only; or mayby - as with Warshrine - applies until you try to give bonus to another unit or other bonus to this one, giving the option of keeping same bonus on a unit for few turns, but effects do not stack)



MartialArtist wrote:
Furies... I'm not sure. They aren't particularly Slaaneshi, but the Cult does need some options for flying things... Or maybe we don't? That would be a bit different. Especially since we haven't really sorted out the Binding rules completely but it seems in any case you wouldn't be able to do what you wanted with them without having them fall apart. Furies out?
As I've written above, I believe ability of flying puts them above M10 fast cavalry in mobility aspect, and seeing how all elven armies and daemons have flying choices, I'd leave them in.

MartialArtist wrote:
CoK's and Altar are both up for grabs. I still like both and want them to stay, but can see the reasoning for them to go. Not sure.
While we do have many choices, I think those two may play imporant role each:

- CoK: if we limit Chaos W/K to one unit per Anointed we'll be lacking resilient units... or any resilient unit at all sometimes, as not every army must include Anointed; CoK fills this gap
- AoS: is a way to introduce a chaotic element, as I've written above; important if we're to remove Spawn


Warbands
MartialArtist wrote:
My vision of the warband was that the Anointed had ONLY one unit with him, who formed his bodyguard or subcommanded troops on the battlefield. As above, I think spawn should be out, so the one TOTAL choice means he is either not accompanied or has a block of warriors or some knights with him. Chaos Warriors were never a big part of the CoS, and all along the different style of Chaos Mortals to the DE and Daemons has meant it's been thought to keep mortals VERY limited, though they still can have a small part. I think this is the way to do it.

If the warband could have up to 3 units in it, than the Cult player in 2k points could buy an anointed and have 20 Warriors, 5 Knights, 2 Spawn and have approximately 600 points of mortals plus the 200-300 points of the Anointed!! That's about half of the army right there. Without any upgrades, marks, command group etc.!! This seems like way too many for a small subsection of the cult army, being composed primarily of DE, Daemons and Marauders. I think Anointed plus one regiment of Knights or Chaos Warriors is well enough.
I believe it would be right with old 4th ed idea (as a guideline, not a rule), when chaos character may have brought as many pts of units, as he was worth himself. Max-kitted Anointed is about 500 pts acctually (518 if tottaly max kitted on everything, although that probably wouldn't be a playable set), so Warband units shouldn't be more than 25% of army (that's also number of allies from other armies allowed back in 4/5th ed) and that's the limit I'd try to achieve.

Still, it's true that with kitted out large units of both Warriors and Knights and with Spawns to boot, there might easlily be more. Spawns of themselves are not a big problem, as they're either 75 or 150 pt choice
One option would be to allow only minimal size units (so only 10 Warriors and 5 knights). Although this gets complicated, so I'd propose something like this:

Warband (rare choice, 1 per anointed)
may consist of either:

A) 10 Warriors; <so basic 165pts; 265pts if max-kitted out with everything together - AHW, Halberd, 2-HW and shields, full CG and 40 pt banner; realisticaly will be at 165-225 pts>; may also include up to two Spawns (takes additional rare choice? or maybe special?) <total of 415 at max, 375-385 realistically, as taking more than one weapon option would be wasting points; maybe 2HW and shield for some shooty protection>

B) 5 Knights <so basic 250 pts; 365 if max-kitted out with magical lances, full CG and 40 pt banner>


What do you think about it? More simple way would be to leave Warriors at Special, Knights at rare, introduce max unit size (18 for Warriors, 6 for knights? To keep in line with Slaaneshi six ;) ) and scrap Spawn altogether - one choice less in that unit crowd... though I will miss him ;)



"What's in the book"

MartialArtist wrote:
• Religious Relics
Here can be found comprehensive rules for all of the magical items from weapons to banners that can be wielded by Cult Heroes and Heroines as well as Demonic Gifts able to be bestowed upon the Anointed and Marauder Warlord.
Small clarification here - Anointed and MW use Chaos Gifts, Daemonic Gifts are used by daemons (so KoS and Herald)

MartialArtist wrote:
• Vanquishers And Hired Hands
Special characters unique to the Cult Of Slaanesh can be found here, with their accompanying backgrounds and rules along with notes on including Dogs of War mercenaries such as the notorious Mengil Manhide and his Manflayers as part of your sect.
Another small thing (hope this doesn't come out as nit-picking)- it's not like Morathi or the Masque are unique to the Cult. ;) As mentioned before - eager to see new MM.

MartialArtist wrote:
As you can see, there's plenty to work on, is it all doable? I think it would be so awesome if we could include it all, and would really enrich the experience for those wanting to give our unofficial rules a shot. It'll be a bit of effort, but i think ultimately worth it.
It would be great to have a full-blown AB (and even more - especially looking at that Khaine-Slaanesh campaign material). :) Still, I'd put accent in question not on 'is it doable?' (as theoretically it is ;) ), but 'do we have people to do it?'

It would require quite a big team of people willing to devote much of their time... for pure satisfaction and no money at that. ;)

At the moment at least, we don't have such a team. So let's focus on getting playable, finished ruleset and some background first - that's the priority IMO. None the less, if you (or anyone else) feels like starting work on other things right now (as with your short story), I'd say go for it. :)

Personally won't contribute much in that aspect for now (can only give ideas for background, don't like battle reports and painting/drawing is time consuming - army list and rules themselves takes most of the time I have for this hobby... not even enough time to convert units for my army, lest paint them :( ), but am willing to help there later on. :)


Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:18 pm
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Corsair
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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:20 am
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How do you get all the little separate quotes of mine? I want to do the same with you but can only manage to get your entire post as a quote, or else just put them in ""'s?

"- Seekers with Herald work very well, but are quite costy, so in no way can be used as 'suicide squad' "

I thought that's why we had Marauder Horsemen? And Dark Riders?

"Hence my proposition:

- Make binding range 24" for Supreme Sorceress, 'in the unit' for Herald and 18" for other spellcasters.

- give also 12" binding range to Altar of Slaanesh - so that characters might be out and away with fast units and still allowing for use of footed daemonettes (that is of course it stays as a separate unit and not a mount for Sorceress - would have normal 18" range in latter case)

- Remove the option of using caster's Ld - Seekers & Fiends don't really need it and I believe on Furies it is too good

- This way binding won't be such a burden, while stoping to be a bonus on the other hand "

AARGH!! The binding rules just keeping getting looser and looser!! The point of the binding thing was that you DID have to carefully manage what went where, that vulnerable sorcs would be the ones holding the fates of your expensive demons and that the whole board wasn't going to be covered by your binding ranges. This also limited the number of demons able to be employed. So far I have allowed the binding rules to gradually get less and less restrictive, but here I have to stop it. The way you have it, the binding rules are just gonna be a formality, with your ranges covering everything exceedingly easily and not exposing your sorcs to any sort of danger. There is very little imposing upon taking large numbers of demons without due thought to how your going to stop them falling apart. And the army doesn't even need Sorcs what with Anointed, Keepers and the Altar giving you all the range you need.

I still see that a more restricted binding rule does create problems for the Cult player in terms of having highly mobile units operating on their own. A better solution can be found here than just giving extended ranges to everyone.

How about Furies are exempt from the Binding, as they are not Slaaneshi and not summoned by the Sorcs but rather just doing their "feast on the weak at a battleground" vulture type thing?

But still the rules remain for others:
- Daemonettes, Seekers and Fiends take instability on own leadership if outside ranges at start of turn.
- Sorcs/High Sorcs 12" range.
- Anointed/Keeper 6" range.
- Herald "with unit" range.

There is still a bit of a problem for Fiends, but daemonettes are easily covered if held in the battleline, Seekers can have a herald or take a risk on their own for a turn or two.

The POINT of the cult was that it was DARK ELVES with SOME Daemons and VERY FEW non-Marauder Mortals. The way things are going, the army will be a Sorc or two, an Anointed with all the mortals you could wish for and Daemons covered by Daemonic heroes, the Anointed or the Altar. Which links to this warband stuff going on here.

" I believe it would be right with old 4th ed idea (as a guideline, not a rule), when chaos character may have brought as many pts of units, as he was worth himself. Max-kitted Anointed is about 500 pts acctually (518 if tottaly max kitted on everything, although that probably wouldn't be a playable set), so Warband units shouldn't be more than 25% of army (that's also number of allies from other armies allowed back in 4/5th ed) and that's the limit I'd try to achieve. "

Warband units shouldn't be more than than 25% of the army (in 2k lets say), but the anointed is 25% himself, and then the army is half Mortals (just count the Anointed in here at the moment) and with the freedom of Demons proposed you could easily have two units of small marauders, a Sorc and the rest Daemonettes. This is not the way of the Cult, and I really need to try and turn the Cult's direction here.

This sort of epitomizes what I'm talking about:
"I believe that as an army closer to Chaos than regular DE, CoS should have a bit more of that (variablity)."

The Cult army is composed mostly of DRUCHII!! It is a DARK ELF variant army, not a Hordes of Chaos variant. It is the CLOSEST to the regular DE, with only a couple of Daemonic and Mortal units, plus a few unique Anointed, Devoted and similar. I think we are getting too much away from Dark Elf variant and more into Daemon and Mortal variant.

So, here is what I can imagine being in a 2k Cult army, that would be balanced and fit my idea of the composition of the fluffy cult force.

Lords
Anointed (350ish)

Heroes
2 x Sorcs (400ish)

Core
20 DE Warrs with Mark (175)
16 Crossbows (170)
20 Devoted (220)
5 Marauder Horsemen (75)

Special
15 Chaos Warriors (230)
5 DR (120)

Rare
Bolt Thrower (100)

and then maybe a few Daemonettes, or some more Warriors, or some more Horesman and Marauders on foot or similar to fill out about 250 points and complete the army. All numbers are very rough, but you can see where I am headed.

Can't comment on everything else there, but basically I think cut out Spawn, no need for Eye of the Gods anyway (introduce more randomness in spawn and eye of gods?? This is a DRUCHII and SLAANESH army, finesse, planning, execution and subtelty, UNPREDICTABLE is the last thing we want which is why so many people bemoan Cold Ones stupidity in DArk Elf army), binding needs to restrict Daemons a fair bit, only ONE mortal unit (either less than or equal to 20 non-upgraded Warriors or less than or equal to 6 knights without upgrades or fancy banners etc) per Anointed and the main focus to be reshifted to Slaaneshi DE, Marauders and Devoted.

I don't mean this message to be aggressive or hugely angry, but things are going off the rails a bit and need to be brought back to where they should be.

MA

_________________
Strike hard and fast, but strike silently.

Revive the Cult! http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t= ... sc&start=0


Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:23 am
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Executioner

Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 9:34 pm
Posts: 192
Location: Denmark
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OK. I think that I've finally managed to chew my way through the entire thread. I'll return with some more comments later on, since it's about 3.50am where I am at the moment. However, I'll round off the night with a comment on the "Binding" special rule you/we are toying around with.

Scrap it.

- It is overly complicated to keep track of in the game.
- It makes the Daemons vulnerable to an extend that isn't necessary.
- The rule itself seems to me to serve no real purpose beyond supporting some fluff idea that the Daemons are summoned by the Sorceresses prior to an engagement. This can be achieved in a much simpler fashion, which will additionally ensure that there is both a point in taking Sorceresses in the first place, and which also ensures that the entire army shouldn't end up consisting of Daemonic units.

Suggestion for alternative to the Binding rule:

"You can only include 1 Daemonic unit in the army, for each Sorceress or Supreme Sorceress in the army. A Keeper of Secrets (who can not be the General!) takes up 1 Lord + 1 Rare choice, and only 1 can be included per Supreme Sorceress in the army."

This variant gives you the fluff wise link between the Sorceresses and the Daemons. It's simple to handle when playing and building the army. And it doesn't make it overly difficult to manoeuvre the army when it's on the field.
Basically I believe that this option is significantly more "elegant", though I'll grant you that it does remove the additional manoeuvring challenges that the "Binding" rule imposed on the army.
As for the additional restriction on the Keeper of Secrets, then that is a deliberate choice on my part, and one I suggest because I'd be loath to see a Cult of Pleasure army led by a Keeper. Especially in a smaller (<2500 pts.) game. The focus of the Cult army should be the Druchii. Not Daemons, and not other mortals.


OK. Flail away at my suggestion ;)


/Kyrel


Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:12 am
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Black Guard
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Posts: 270
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MartialArtist wrote:
How do you get all the little separate quotes of mine? I want to do the same with you but can only manage to get your entire post as a quote, or else just put them in ""'s?
For text to be shown as a quote it simply must have [quote#="quoted_person"] at the begginning and [/quote #] at the end (without those hashes and spaces, I've put them in so this would be shown as plain text and not a quote).

MartialArtist wrote:
"- Seekers with Herald work very well, but are quite costy, so in no way can be used as 'suicide squad' "

I thought that's why we had Marauder Horsemen? And Dark Riders?
True, just my feedback about using them, not a problem.

MartialArtist wrote:
The Cult army is composed mostly of DRUCHII!! It is a DARK ELF variant army, not a Hordes of Chaos variant. It is the CLOSEST to the regular DE, with only a couple of Daemonic and Mortal units, plus a few unique Anointed, Devoted and similar. I think we are getting too much away from Dark Elf variant and more into Daemon and Mortal variant.
Agreed - CoS is mostly Druchii. What I meant with my sentence was:
"When comparing CoS and DE the former has more Chaos in it" and not "When comparing DE and Chaos, there is more of the latter in CoS".

I see no problem (fluff-wise, as I don't think this would make for efficent army composition) with CoS armies including vast amounts of marauders; other than that Chaos should indeed be limited. I believe with daemons restricted the way Kyrel proposed (or even a bit less - see below in 'Daemons & Binding') and Warriors/Knights restricted to 1 unit it would be ok.

MartialArtist wrote:
Can't comment on everything else there, but basically I think cut out Spawn, no need for Eye of the Gods anyway (introduce more randomness in spawn and eye of gods?? This is a DRUCHII and SLAANESH army, finesse, planning, execution and subtelty, UNPREDICTABLE is the last thing we want which is why so many people bemoan Cold Ones stupidity in DArk Elf army), binding needs to restrict Daemons a fair bit, only ONE mortal unit (either less than or equal to 20 non-upgraded Warriors or less than or equal to 6 knights without upgrades or fancy banners etc) per Anointed and the main focus to be reshifted to Slaaneshi DE, Marauders and Devoted.

I don't mean this message to be aggressive or hugely angry, but things are going off the rails a bit and need to be brought back to where they should be.
Still, we partially agree and partially disagree on where 'things should be':

1. Warriors:
- we agree one unit is enough and max unit size is needed; I'd put max of 18 on Warriors (as it's fluffy - Slaanesh favours units of six or multiply thereof), but still 20 might be better on game-balance (as gives a chance for +3 and not only +2 rank bonus).

- I believe upgrades (which is: command group and weapon options) and magical banners should be allowed for warriors/knights. After all, they're a rare choice and need to be useful for their points; also see no reason fluff-wise to forbid it; if it comes down to '% of Chaos in the army' I believe '1 unit per anointed' and max unit size is enough of restriction


2. Daemons:
- we agree they should be restricted
- I believe current binding rules don't do it well. See last part of this post


3. Army character:
- we agree that CoS is Druchii and Slaanesh
- we agree that this means 'finesse, planning, execution and subtelty'; fragility we can add to that, I believe.
- we disagree on unpredicability

My PoV:
* Slaanesh is a Chaos God
* Chaos for the begining was connected both fluff- and rule- wise with randomness
* This posed problem with creating balanced army rules, so ranomness was reduced in its rule aspect
* This problem goes on even more in a fragile and costy force, which CoS is.
* So IMO questions is: "How to introduce randomness in a fluffy way, yet without making army unreliable?"

Answer to that, the way I see it is:
* Introduce Eye of Slaanesh table - a random, but stable simple bouns for characters in rare situation (kills character in challange or a big monster)
* Use same table for Altar of Slaanesh effects - a random simple bouns for one unit in a predictable situation (within 12", player choses a unit) - either for one turn or stable.

What I see as good sides of such solution:
- as mentioned above, bouns for Characters occurs in rare situation; so one wouldn't base his strategy on it; as generally positive, such bouns would only help with any plan or - at worst - wouldn't affect it.
- Altar bonus for units is also a positive effect; it is random, so (unlike with Cauldron of Blood) one cannot base his strategy on it. Still, noone said that Altar should have same use as CoB and, TBH fluffwise I really don't like idea of Chaos God Altar granting specific bonuses 'on demand' to its followers.
- So if one prefers to leave randomness out, an effective list without Altar can still be made and bonuses on characters - even if they do happen - won't affect army's reliability

- Sole exception to what I've written above is rolling 'snake eyes' on the table, as it's the only negative effect - grants character/unit with stupidity.
Don't see a problem with that, as you can:
a) keep rolls on the table down to minimum
b) most importantly - have 3 times less the chance of that happening than failing stupidity test on Ld10 with COK, at still get a decent chance of avoiding effect later (change it next turn if we're talking about a unit and have quite big chances of passing the stupidity test anyway)

This way there would be a way to introducing randomness to CoS list without hurting its reliability, especially compared to COK/COCh or Armour of Living Damnation, which are options in regular DE list.




on daemons&binding

1. Leaving Furies out of binding rules and keeping other daemons in goes against the fluff, as I believe instability comes from daemon trying to mantain physical form itself and binding is about 'I'll protect you from being unstable, daemon', not: 'I'll send you back to warp if you get away too far'. So if not bound by sorceress Furies should have to test for instability each turn, even near to spellcaster (which would fit their background of less stable than other daemons, but also would make them useless).

2. Smallest table size according to BRB is 48x48" (I use it for games up to 2000 pts, and 72x48 or 96x48 for bigger games) So I believe ranges I gave (24" SS, 18/12" other) don't allow to cover whole battlefield (unless you put your SS in the middle of the battlefield, or a couple of spellcasters in enemy part of the battlefield, which both are hardly 'not exposing to any sort of danger'). Maybe 18" for SS and 12" for the rest would be better, but 12" max range is definitly not enough IMO. Anyway, don't want to delve deeper into that...

3. ... as on the total, I'm with Kyrel on scrapping the binding rules. I think the alternative rule have following advantages:

- more simple
- makes daemon restriction fluffy (as it leaves out the need for arbitrary 'no more daemon units than other')
- still gives the reason to take Sorceresses


I would change two things in it:

- allow 2 Daemonic units for each Supreme Sorceress
<with PoD spell DE don't have such a big need for a 3/4lvl spellcaster and making SS 'summon' only 1 unit is a disadvantage, as you could take 2 lvl2 for less points and have 2 units and same total number of leves>

- 1 KoS can be included, 1 more per each Supreme Sorceress in the army
<practicaly it means 0-1 KoS in battles up to 3999 which I think is ok for big battles; more importantly - it gives the option of KoS in 2000 pts force. Which is important to me on two reasons:

- All official Army books have all of army's options available at 2000 battle (even though it allows fluff-wise questionable compositions sometimes).
I'd like to keep in line with that (especially as I won't be playing battles bigger than 2500 pts anywhere in the future and am not the only one who has no time for that - see discussion on Warseer on 'Legendary Battles' rules as a proposed solution for those who miss mixed Chaos army).

- It's the only 'big monster' choice in the army, as all other (Hydra, Manticore, Dragon) have been scrapped.


BTW no need to make 'cannot be army's general' note for KoS (or Anointed, for that matter) if we keep original CoS rule:
- The Army General must be a High Sorceress, or a Sorceress if no High Sorceress is present (even if they do not have the highest Leadership in the army). The Army General must have the Mark of Slaanesh.


Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:14 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Why not just make the KoS like an Ogre Slaughtermaster. You can have them but you must first have a supreme sorc. Then the keeper will only appear in 3k games, wherein it is much more acceptable to bring one.

And is binding basically the same as synapse creatures for nids? But with instability tests right?

Also, I feel furies should be dropped. They aren't particularly fluffy, and the cult has access to a lot of M9/10 critters. It seems people want them there just for the sake of having a flier.
Also Spawn should stay as they represent the various marauders/cultists that get warped by slaanesh. You have to remember that mutation is a GIFT from a god. So even so spawn are mutating blobs, they are still seen to have earned some of their gods favor (aside from a few cases where it is a punishment).

Also I think the Herald option should be dropped. It shifts the focus awway from the mortal side of the army, and this is the cult of slaanesh- not slaanesh's army.
The focus should stay more on the mortal side- having access to a few daemonic units does this nicely but I don't really see heralds going to the aid of a comparitively small cult trying to earn it's god's favor.

_________________
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name: Rhyithan Uematsu
WS 4 (5)
Str 4
T 4
Dxty 2
Int 5
Equipment: Longsword, Shield, Lightarmor, Seadragon Cloak, Enchanted Draich (+1 WS).
skills: Two-Handed Weapon Fighting
10gc

awesome tattoo - priceless.


Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:01 am
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Black Guard
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@almundis - I stand corrected on the 'no options that can't be used in 2000 pts battle' issue. BTW is Slaughtermaster sole exception or are there others you know of?

Anyway, in this case dis/allowing KoS in 2000 pts becomes simply a question of:
- should there be a large monster option in the army?

I'd say yes, but can also see such lack being a unique characteristic of CoS Army (the same way dwarfs don't get cavalry)



On furies
I believe they are fluffy, TBH looking at their fluff, I'd go as far as saying they're the only daemons whose inclusion in regular DE army might easily fit background (as they are the first to enter the mortal realm when borders of reality are weakend, and this happens when you use Dark Magic).
There are reasons to keep them out of regular DE (like background-wise there is place for dwarf and halfling units in Empire army, but for sake of 'clear visage' the're left out) of course, but I do believe they have their place in CoS.

As for rules - yes, I do believe CoS needs flyers - as even M10 can't get you everywhere if there's enemy nearby or a difficult/impassable terrain.

On herald
Fluff-wise I think Herald fits as well as regular daemonettes. To put it in a bit simplified way - (s)he's a 'daemonette hero' and so generally does what he's commanded to by Slaanesh, his greater daemons or his summoner. It's not a daemon prince with a past of a mortal.

And with 'sumonning' rules Kyrel proposed, use of daemons is restricted anyway (I assume Herald counts as a 1 model unit in that respect?)


Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:51 am
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Hm, I suppose. I assume that Heralds are restricted to joining only daemon units.

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Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:54 am
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almundis wrote:
Hm, I suppose. I assume that Heralds are restricted to joining only daemon units.


Yes, they are. What I intended to write was that inclusion of herald used one of the 'summoning' slots - so if army included only a single Sorceress, you might take a herald or a unit of daemons (like Seekers) but not both.


Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:02 am
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Hm, what about a unit upgrade like tullaris? You could make a special character herald that has to be bought with a specific unit. Or maybe I'm just being difficult...

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Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:08 am
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Alright, can we sort these two things out now for everyone as these seem to have been pretty major discussion points so far and we can probably turn our attentions to something else now....

Warriors/Knights Of Chaos
So, I'm all for this interpretation of them:
- ONE Chaos Warriors OR Chaos Knights unit may be chosen as a Rare choice per Anointed in the Cult Army.
- If taken, either unit has possibility of upgrades
- Mark Of Slaanesh
- may have a full command group
- I'm not for magic banners (why would the Sorcs (keepers of the magic items?) give their precious magical stuff to troops that are only loyal because of the Anointed (as in my fluff story)? These guys could walk off any time with these sacred objects and the Sorcs would have to risk a battle to get them back. I can see that maybe magic banners are good, but I'd leave them with no option for them.
- I think Chaos Warriors max unit size 20 and knights 6 or 7? Considering if you want the you can have the Anointed join them (chaos knights shouldn't be allowed to have option for a second rank, while Warriors should just be able to get +3 bonus).
Comment: Mortals are restricted to limited and at most medium sized units and will not take up more than a little of the army. Perfect.

Binding
- I still like it in
- If in Bound units take instability test if not within range of "binder" at start of turn. Binder's ranges are:
-Supreme Sorc 18"
- Sorcs 12"
- Anointed, KoS 6"
- Herald, with unit
- Whether included or not: only one noncharacter Daemonic unit may be taken for each Sorceress in the army, two for every Supreme Sorceress.
- Also, I think no big monsters for Cult is good (come on, they're supposed to be hiding!) so 0-1 KoS per Supreme Sorc.
Comment: Solution still need to be found for Furies and Fiends. If the binding rule gets in as I think it should, the combination of that and the restriction on demons in the second bottom point above means that you should only have a couple of units to keep under the summoning umbrella anyway,and you do always have one compulsory sorc....

There we go, all nice and simple, on both issues and I think practical. Even if the Binding rules don't really add a lot game wise (I think its good and just a little extra challenge to deal with), we've agreed fluff-rules is essential and as also agreed its Sorcs that hold demons to reality. Proximity seems to be a big part of this.

Furies? I think they are also wanted just for a flying unit, but we need to work out some way for the binding rules to be a bit more free on Furies (if they are included and binding as I have suggested) and Fiends. More thought required here.

MA

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Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:41 am
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Do you people realise that as of last night, this thread extends to 81 A4 pages in Word in pitch 12 and single line spacing! And by now it’s even longer.

Anyway. It’s probably impossible to “sum up” things at this point, but here’s my comments on some of the issues that seem to be debated in the thread so far.


Mortals in Cult of Pleasure army:
The biggest question seems to be “mortals or not?”, and “how many mortals?”. Personally I’d prefer to have the Cult of Pleasure army list focus exclusively on the Druchii followers and the Cult of Pleasure in Druchii society. Basically no mortals. Now, I realise that some people love the Marauder options, and that these troop options seem to be what attracts them to the Cult of Pleasure army in the first place. Additionally, we can argue that there is some fluff president for including Marauder options in the list.


Anointed Warband of Chaos Warriors/Knights:
With regards to the Warrior/Knight options as a Rare option, and no more such units than the army has Anointed, then I suppose that I could live with that. I have to admit though, that it would clash with my opinion on the nature of the Anointed to include them as a sort of “retinue” for him. The reason this option clashes with my vision of the Anointed is because we are talking about a Dark Elf allowing him-/herself to associate with a bunch of mere humans! Chaos warriors and followers of Slaanesh or not, we are talking about Anointed here. At the time Anointed walked into the Chaos Wastes in search of power, Humanity was still living as small independent bands/clans without any form of collective formal structure, let alone a common culture or Empire. To a Druchii of that time, a Human would warrant about as much thought and respect as your average gnat. For all intends and purposes a Druchii of that time would probably see Humans to be similar to your average ape or caveman. Basically more animal than sentient being worth their time. I can follow why we might want to include the options for Knights/Warriors, seeing as they were available in the 6th ed. Cult army. But in my opinion, they were a part of that army because they ended up either being drawn to the prospect of battle, or they happened to be a part of the tribes that Morathi managed to subsume/seduce/manipulate to her will. While I agree that Morathi might well be able to “recruit” Marauders and possibly even Chaos Warriors for a particular war/purpose, I just can’t envision how neither Marauders nor Chaos Warriors would be able to “blend in” with life in a Druchii city, or even stay undetected out in the countryside. Besides, even if they could survive unnoticed in the wilds of Naggaroth, what the heck would they do there? We’re talking about individuals that are used to existing in the Chaos Wastes, and spending a fair amount of time fighting for the honour of the Chaos Gods. Should they be fighting each other while they lay low for the next couple of centuries, waiting for the next time Morathi believes that it’s time for the Cult to come into the open again? Sorry guys. I just have a really hard time envisioning it. I like the models as well, but frankly, I believe that the various Daemons of Slaanesh can fulfil more or less the same role in the army as Chaos Warriors/Knights. And if the general consensus is that this is not the case, then I’m fairly certain that we can come up with some other kinds of Druchii/Daemon troop options that can.


Anointed:
I’m expecting that we’re leaving his stats like in the 6th edition of the Cult army list, right? If not, then I’ll have to say that he shouldn’t be changed. The Anointed is Elves that have been alive since the time of The Sundering. Basically they are as old as Malekith and possibly Morathi. Additionally they are to some extend Champions of Chaos/Slaanesh, and as such I believe that they should be perfectly able to go head-to-head with a Chaos Lord. At 235 pts. he’s even more expensive than the basic Chaos Lord from the recently released Warriors of Chaos armybook. Somewhere we even have fluff claiming that Elves that become Chaos Champions, are some of the deadliest creatures in existence. And I’m sorry. I just can’t remember where I read that. But I found it somewhere in an official GW book.
There has been talk of letting the Anointed “have a Warband” so to speak. For the above mentioned reasons (see my comments on the Warband issue), I’m somewhat opposed to the Warband concept. Besides the above reasons, it is because I envision the Anointed as being creatures that have travelled the Chaos Wastes in solitude for millennia. From time to time they might have joined forces with one group of Chaos Warriors or another, but in essence I feel that the Anointed will always have been a breed apart from the regular Chaos Champions. Arguably this view is also supported by the fact that under the Storm of Chaos rules for the Cult, the Anointed couldn’t join Chaos units in the army. He could only join Druchii units. And Finally, part of this view also has to do with the content of the Liber Chaotica: Slaanesh, which I mention in another thread (but which I at this time still haven’t had the time to actually elaborate on in that thread…).


Daemons
I’m all for Daemons of Slaanesh having a place in the Cult of Pleasure army. However, I also believe that they should be limited in qty. in the army, and that they should have less options than they have in the Daemon army book. And with less options I mean no upgrades (equipment, command group, or otherwise), and no Daemonic characters besides the Keeper. Daemons are tools and a means to an end for the Druchii. Nothing more IMO.


Keeper of Secrets
Basically I want the thing to be available, but I don’t really want to see it in anything less than a 3000 pts. game, and definitively not as the General. As pointed out, the General issue is easily solved by keeping the rule that a Cult of Pleasure army can only be led by a Sorceress of some sort. I can follow the argument that without access to a Keeper in a <3000 pts. army, then the army won’t have any kind of big monster. I can follow the argument, but I must at the same time say that I don’t consider it to be a problem. Between RBT’s, magic, various Daemons, and the Anointed, I think that we’ll still be able to deal with similar kind of threats in opposing armies. Besides, if the Cult is supposed to keep itself hidden within the Druchii society, then the lack of any really big creatures would probably be an advantage. Also, we should keep in mind that Greater Daemons aren’t exactly toys to be played around with. Personally I’d consider it to be quite characterful for the army if you could only bring a Keeper, if you already had a Supreme Sorceress. That would also ensure that you’d need at least 3000 pts. to bring one (Keeper that is). Also, as mentioned before, I’d let him take up a Lord + 1 Rare slot.
A unique alternative I just thought of, which would have to be playtested for balance, would be to remove the Keeper of Secrets from the Lord section, and in stead move it to the Rare section, and then let it cost something like 2 Rare + 1 Special slot. Doing it that way would mean that you could basically have a max. of 1 Keeper pr. 2000 pts. in the army, and you’d also sort of reinforce the message that even Greater Daemons are viewed as tools by the Druchii, and not characters of equal importance as the General or other Druchii characters. Any comments/thoughts on that option?


Furries:
On one level I have absolutely no objections to including Furries in the army list. On the other hand I kind of think that it would be more characterful to stick with only Slaanesh aligned Daemons. On one level, the army probably needs some kind of flying creature(s), in order to be able to properly defend against enemy fliers, but on the other hand, between Seekers, Fiends, Dark Riders, Shades, and daemonic mounts/Steeds of Slaanesh (if we should decide to resurrect that option, which I’d favour, by the way…), (and other potential cavalry units like Marauder Horsemen and Chaos Knights), I sort of think that we can potentially field one of the fastest armies in the game anyway. At the end of the day, I’ll probably support either decision, whether or not we end up including them or not.


Heralds:
Basically I don’t like the idea of having a Daemonic Heroes in the army list, as I think that the focus should be on the Druchii, but I’d go for it if a Herald would count as a Daemonic unit with regards to the need for Sorceresses in the army.


Binding Daemons:
I’ve written it before, and I’ll do it again. I don’t like this rule for the aforementioned reasons, and I believe that it should be scrapped and replaced with the Binding rule I suggested earlier, but with the modifications proposed by Weenth.

“You can include 1 Daemonic unit per Sorceress in the army, and 2 per Supreme Sorceress.”

Daemons should keep the Instability rule from the Daemons of Chaos armybook, but if we want to further reinforce the link between the Sorceresses and the Daemon contingents in the army, then we could provide the Sorceresses with an additional special option to strengthen the Daemons in the army:

[i] “In the magic phase, a Sorceress or Supreme Sorceress can channel a single Power Dice into a Daemon unit within 12” of herself. This extra power removes the Daemonic Instability rule from the strengthened Daemon unit until the Sorceresses next Magic Phase. Stabilising a Daemonic unit like this is relatively easy for a Sorceress, and the process can not be prevented by enemy dispel attempts. A Sorceress and Supreme Sorceress can only “boost” a single Daemonic unit in this way each turn though.”


Doing this will provide the player with an incentive to keep the Daemonic units within a relatively close distance to at least one Sorceress, and it would also go a ways towards balancing out the removal of upgrade options from the Daemonic units.


“Assassins”:
Hopefully this one isn’t still on the table. Assassins and clones/variants thereof belong in the Khaine department of the Druchii society. Not in the Cult of Pleasure.


Eternal Hatred & Mark of Slaanesh:
Starting off with a sidenote, the rules from the Warriors of Chaos armybook, describes the Mark of Slaanesh as making the unit “immune to Fear, Terror, and Panic”. This is important, because that wording means that the unit doesn’t have the “Immune to Psychology” effect described in the BRB, and hence they should be able to choose a “Flee” reaction, if need be. Eternal Hatred we all know.
Now the questions. Should a unit with a Mark of Slaanesh also have the Eternal Hatred rule? Which units should or should not have the Mark of Slaanesh?
The 6th ed. fluff sets a precedent for units being able to have both Hatred and the Mark of Slaanesh at the same time. Since Hatred from the 6th ed. has been changed into Eternal Hatred in the 7th ed., and given the above rules for the Mark of Slaanesh, I see no reason why a unit shouldn’t have or be able to have both.
As for which units should have a Mark or not, I’d say that the General must have a Mark, and the Anointed too should be born with the Mark as default. As for the rest of the Dark Elf units, I’d have to say that I think that all of them should have it as an option, with a single extra condition. As we are talking about the Cult of Pleasure, I do feel that units with the Mark of Slaanesh should be more common than units without it. For this reason I’d suggest that we add a rule that prohibits a Cult army from including more Druchii units without a Mark of Slaanesh, than there are Druchii units in the army with the Mark of Slaanesh.


Mandatory Devoted:
We are talking about the Cult of Pleasure. IMO it really should be mandatory to include at lease one unit of Devoted in the army. Maybe the min. unit size should be modified to be 5+ rather than 10+ (but with a caveat that units below 10 don’t count towards the minimum no. of Core units in the army), but I think that they are just so damned characteristic of the Cult, that it shouldn’t be possible to field an army without at least one unit of them.
As it’s been mentioned, the rules for Soporific Musk has changed since the 6th ed. I too feel that we should retain the 6th ed. rules for the Soporific Musk, and then come up with a new name for it. I can’t remember the previous suggestion on this, but as I recall it was an OK suggestion.
And finally on the Devoted, then I believe that we should keep the option for the Mistress/Champion to take Speed of Slaanesh (always strike first) for +10 pts. +25 pts. would be too expensive for a unit champion.
Basically I’d make no changes to the 6th ed Devoted, when converting them to 7th ed. 12 pts./model is arguably expensive, but given the abilities I believe that it is justified. Someone argued in favour of reducing the abilities for the Devoted, and then reducing the cost/model. I’m against that. The unit is deadly, and IMO it should be. Especially if we severely limit the access to other hard hitting Chaos units like Knights and Warriors/Chosen.


“Alter of Pleasure/Slaanesh” (I’d suggest “Effigy of Pleasure”):
On one level I really love the idea of allowing the Cult to be able to field some sort of mobile effigy, with the ability to provide nearby units or selected units with some kind of boon. On the other hand I, depending on the ultimate rules for the thing, I have a hard, or not quite so hard, time accepting that a Cult that is hiding within the society in which it is based, should have the ability to safely and secretly store something as potentially large and powerful as a mobile alter or other type of effigy.
Assuming that we are going to include this thing, then someone suggested making it akin to the new Warshrine from the Warriors of Chaos armybook. While I’d personally stay away from the Eye of God type random boon rules, I’m not opposed to making some rules that allow an “Alter of Pleasure” to bestow some sort of boons on nearby friendly or enemy units. I suppose a suggestion could be:

Effigy of Pleasure: 0-1 Rare choice
- The “Effigy of Pleasure” functions as a nexus for magical energy, and any Daemonic units within 12” of the unit can ignore the Daemonic Instability rule.
- Magic users with a Mark of Slaanesh within 12” of the Effigy gains +1 on their Casting Rolls when using a Slaanesh spell.
The Effigy has the ability to cast one of several effects on a friendly or enemy unit each turn, with no chance of dispelling the effect.
1) Make a unit within 18” subject to Stupidity for 1 round.
2) Make a unit within 18” Unbreakable for the next combat round.
3) Make a unit within 18” Immune to Fear, Terror, and Panic for 1 round.
4) Give a unit within 18” the Always Strike First special rule for 1 round.

And with “1 round” I mean until the start of the Cult player’s next turn!


Shades:
IMO we should use the new rules for the Shades, and let them remain as a Core selection. However, as it would undoubtedly be too cheesy to allow an entire army with nothing but Shades, 1 Sorceress, and 1 unit of minimum size Devoted, we’d need a rule to prevent this. My suggestion would be:

No more than one unit of Shades per 1000 pts. in the army count as Core. Further Shade units that that count as Special. Thus a 2000 pts. army with 3 units of Shades would have them count as 2 Core units, and 1 Special unit.


Cold One Knights:
Basically I just don’t like the fluff behind the Cold One Knights in relationship to the Cult of Pleasure. The numbing of the senses necessary to allow a Druchii to ride such a beast just clashes way too hard with me to include the Cold Ones in the army. I love the new models, but I belong to the camp that doesn’t include a model in an army, just because I like it. I might buy one for its look, but I’m not going to put it on the battlefield, solely on that account.
When that’s said and done, I have to admit that I believe that the Cult army should have access to some form of heavy cavalry, besides the Chaos Knights (which I’d rather not see in the army at all). As I see it, the most logical option would be to have the Cult Knights ride into battle on either Barded Dark Steeds, or alternatively Barded Chaos Steeds. I’d prefer the Chaos steeds, but I think that the Dark Steed would be a better fit.


Magic Lore access:
I don’t believe that this issue has been raised for real yet, so I’ll bring it up.

Which Lores of Magic should the Sorceresses, Anointed, and Keeper of Secrets have access to?

One option is to simply use the already existing lores in the game, the other option is to make a new magic list for the Cult of Pleasure, with throwbacks to the (Daemonic) Lore of Slaanesh. On one level I believe that there is plenty of variation in the existing Lores, and that we don’t need to make up a new one for our little pet project here. On the other hand I would also really like to come up with some collection of spells that would differentiate the Cult of Pleasure a little from the Slaanesh. Something that would underpin the vision and playing style of the Cult of Pleasure. Since I don’t believe that we have the background properly in place yet, I don’t really think that we can come up with a suitable new Lore at the moment, but once the fluff is in place, I think that it would be worth having a discussion on the issue. Until then I’d suggest the following Lore access:

Supreme Sorceress: Lore of Dark Magic, Fire, Death, Shadow, Metal
with Mark of Slaanesh: Lore of Dark Magic, Lore of Slaanesh, Daemon Lore of Slaanesh
Sorceress: Lore of Dark Magic, Fire, Death, Shadow, Metal
with Mark of Slaanesh: Lore of Dark Magic, Lore of Slaanesh
Anointed: Lore of Slaanesh, Daemon Lore of Slaanesh, Lore of Dark Magic. No Power of Darkness Spell, but +1 to Casting Rolls.
Keeper of Secrets: Daemon Lore of Slaanesh


I’d make these differentiations in Lore access, because I believe that it would be characterful for the army, and would highlight the differences between the four different types of caster.


/Kyrel


Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:42 pm
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The thing with CoK and the whole numbing debate, is that they should be included because they represent lesser nobles, of which i am sure many are affiliated with the cult. Sure it numbs their senses, but I am sure a life devoted to a lord of pleasure would be the only way to regain those senses. It is entirely possible that CoK would join the cult after realizing their folly.

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Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:02 pm
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I can follow you logic Alamundis, but I'd still prefer to have heavy cav. on barded Dark Steeds in stead. But then again, I'm biased. I haven't put Cold Ones of any kind on the battlefield for years, since I generally have nothing but bad experiences with them. As long as they suffer from Stupidity, I have no use for them as anything but shields or distractions in a very large battle (5000+ pts.). But I'll grant that the new models are pretty damned cool. Just a pitty that they are still suffering from Stupidity in the game.


Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:33 am
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I think we would all love heavy barded steeds with unkillable monsters on top, but my point is CoK represent the nobles of the dark elves. Chaos knights are not.

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Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:43 am
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Kyrel: a couple of thoughts.

If the Effigy or Power Dice expended by Sorcs can make daemons immune to instability, than effectively demons in combat are Unbreakable :shock: As they don't suffer break tests.
Good idea for the channeling dice thing, but needs a little rewriting.

On the new magic lore thing, I was trying to push Anointed having their own "curses of slaanesh" magic list of 5, power level , bound spells of which they could cast 1/2 per turn (depending on upgrades) and would generate 1 DD, instead of using usual sorc rules. Weenth wasn't really a big fan of this as there is already plenty of magic lores so I dropped the idea, but if your with me here maybe we can get something happening, just something a little unique and Cult like....

EH and MoS
Its already been debated, and I thought the point we reached was:

*Army general must have MoS
Supreme and Sorcs: EH and option for MoS
Anointed: EH and MoS
KoS: Daemonic (no mark but already has slaaneshi bonuses)
Herald: Daemonic

Warriors and Xbowmen: EH and option for mark
Devoted: EH and MoS
Daemonettes: Daemonic
etc.

Basically, DArk elf units have EH and option for mark, Anointed and Devoted have both EH and MoS, and Daemonic units are Daemonic and have neither.

Magic Lore Access
Been debated (its in their somewhere) but basically all get the lores they have in their own armybook, plus marked sorcs get Lore of Slaanesh.

Anointed was briefly debated but needs probably more discussion. gets DArk magic and Lore Of Slaanesh, but I thought debate required on whether gets PoD and Druchii Sorcery or not? Open for discussion.

I agree completely with you in all you said under "Mandatory Devoted".

under "Daemons" I basically agree, Daemons don't have weapons options anyway, but I think they probably should have command groups, but maybe no magic banners?

Anyway, will post more a bit later but that's my general view...

MA

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Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:48 am
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Of course an annointed should get PoD and Druchii sorcery. They are (were) druchii, so logically they would still retain some aspects of that.

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Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:33 am
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Rgd. the Anointed and magic, I think that I'd personally prefer just to keep the guy as a regular magic user, rather than make up some sort of new bound spell type spells. Somehow I have an easier time envisioning him as a more standard type Mage of an equivalent level (1 or 2). However, Druchii or not, I would like to underpin the fact that the Anointed arguably are a "breed apart", and arguably would be closer to a Chaos Sorcerer than a Druchii Sorceress. For that reason I'd let him generate Power and Dispel Dice as normal, but rather than give him access to the Power of Darkness spell, I'd give him a straight +1 on his casting rolls.

The Dice Channeling thing. Agreed on the rewrite thing. Basically I was just throwing things up for debate. And yes. Unbeakable Daemons would be tough. But as I would be combining it with no access to a command group, and possibly also no Herald, I would argue that the Daemons could use a little something to balance it out. An alternative could be to let a Sorceress spend Power Dice on boosting Daemons, but rather than making them immune to Instability, it could in stead either provide the Daemon unit with an improved save, additional "ghost" wounds, a bonus on their combat result, or something else. I'm open to alternative suggestions.
As for the Effigy, then that would be a hard effect. But it would of course also have to be balanced out by things like Pts. cost, 0-1 type unit, and Rare status. But again, I'm open to alternative suggestions.

Magic Lore access: Fair enough. One question rgd. the Lore of Slaanesh though. Are we thinking about the Lore of Slaanesh, or the Daemon Lore of Slaanesh? Personally I'd suggest allowing access to both.

@Alamundis. Rgd. the barded knight issue above. I'm not advocating Chaos Knights. I'm advocating the regular Druchii Knights on top of Barded Dark Steeds in stead of Cold Ones. Maybe it's me, but I somehow don't find that a regular Druchii on a Steed would compare with a Chaos Knight. But I agree that the Cold Ones are more commonly associated with the Druchii.


Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:17 pm
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almundis wrote:
Of course an annointed should get PoD and Druchii sorcery. They are (were) druchii, so logically they would still retain some aspects of that.


They are Druchii, but I'd imagine not trained in the same way as the Sorcs of the Convent (who are converted to become Cult leaders), and not sure where they got their magic training from, but if it was while wandering in the Chaos wastes or something they maybe haven't found all of the same tricks as the DE have.

I like Kyrel's suggestion of just +1 to cast. In line with normal rules and fits fluffwise: they've had AGES to practice magic so are pretty potent. I'd also give them Druchii Sorcery (again, able to wield MASSIVE amounts of power), but would leave them without PoD (leave it uniquely Druchii and they (well I think anyway) seem less likely to be trying to do something so beyond them that they're gonna hurt themselves).

On channeling dice: instead of making it flat immune to instability how about:

“In the magic phase, a Sorceress or Supreme Sorceress can channel up to the number of Power Dice she generates into a Daemon unit within 12” of herself. This extra power allows the unit to ignore a number of wounds inflicted from a failed Instability test equal to the number of Power dice expended from the strengthened Daemon unit until the Sorceresses next Magic Phase. Stabilising a Daemonic unit like this is relatively easy for a Sorceress, and the process can not be prevented by enemy dispel attempts or dispel scrolls and similar items that prevent spells. A Sorceress and Supreme Sorceress can only “boost” a single Daemonic unit in this way each turn and a Daemonic unit may only be boosted by one Sorceress's dice per turn.”

That is on a similar line, and can aid a demon unit that you really need to hold on, but isn't extreme. Just a thought: Maybe change it so that this rule can't affect the Keeper Of Secrets as I just realised that a Supreme Sorc aiding a Keeper could be quite potent....

Also, is the idea here that these rules will replace the binding ones I had? I think that this rule could work with the one I had (instability test at start of turn if outside summoning ranges), and allow a Sorc to give up her magic to aid a demon unit outside of the instability range (hey, this fits, providing perfect solution for Furies, Fiends and Seekers), though for this to work a Sorc would have to be able to power any unit on the board (as otherwise the demons will always be inside summoning range anyway). I think this really could work! Everything else I've thought that way about hasn't really happened, but I'm confident on this one.

So how about these for some rules:

Daemonettes, Seekers, Fiends and Furies have this rule:

Bound To Reality: Daemon units in the Cult are only held to reality by the continued and close by anchor of the Cult’s Sorceresses’ magic. Daemons straying too far from the influence of friendly spell casters soon find their bodies beginning to melt away as the force which holds them to reality begins to dissipate. Any unit of Furies, Daemonettes, Seekers or Fiends not within the “Magical Nexus” range of a friendly Supreme Sorceress, Sorceress, Keeper Of Secrets, Druchii Anointed or Herald must take a Daemonic Instability test on their basic leadership at the end of each Cult player’s magic phase.

Anointed and the Keeper Of Secrets have this rule:

Magical Nexus (6”): The presence of this warrior upon the battlefield holds open a gateway into reality for Daemons wishing to venture out from the ether and prey upon the living. Units within 6” of this model do not suffer from the “Bound To Reality” rule.

Heralds have this rule:

Magical Nexus (With unit): The presence of this warrior upon the battlefield holds open a gateway into reality for Daemons wishing to venture out from the ether and prey upon the living. Models in the same unit as this model do not suffer from the “Bound To Reality” rule.

Sorcs (12") and Supreme Sorcs (18") have these rules:

Magical Nexus (12/18”): The presence of this warrior upon the battlefield holds open a gateway into reality for Daemons wishing to venture out from the ether and prey upon the living. Units within 12/18” of this model do not suffer from the “Bound To Reality” rule.

Binder Of Daemons:“In the magic phase, a Sorceress or Supreme Sorceress can channel up to the number of Power Dice she generates into a Daemon unit on the battlefield. Power dice channeled are immediately lost and may not be used to cast spells or dispel spells already in play. This extra power allows the Daemon unit to ignore a number of wounds inflicted from a failed Instability test equal to the number of Power dice expended until the Sorceresses next Magic Phase. Stabilizing a Daemonic unit like this is relatively easy for a Sorceress, and the process can not be prevented by enemy dispel attempts or dispel scrolls and similar items that prevent spells. A Sorceress and Supreme Sorceress can only “boost” a single Daemonic unit in this way each turn and a Daemonic unit may only be boosted by one Sorceress's dice per turn.”

I really like all these, think they fit well and balanced together and don't see why not to include them (besides whining about having to remember one or two extra rules). They are characterful, unique, something extra to consider but don't necessarily have to be limiting and I really REALLY like them. Everything I have said so far has been cut down, and it would be awesome if people could just say "yeah, that's cool, lets do it" for once and I think this is it. These rules also leave the Effigy to provide FULL immunity to instability as a unique bonus. So. Opinions?

Kyrel wrote:
Magic Lore access: Fair enough. One question rgd. the Lore of Slaanesh though. Are we thinking about the Lore of Slaanesh, or the Daemon Lore of Slaanesh? Personally I'd suggest allowing access to both.


I'm not really sure, as this was more Weenth's area, but i was under the impression marked Sorcs and Anointed could have either....

Kyrel wrote:
Mandatory Devoted:
We are talking about the Cult of Pleasure. IMO it really should be mandatory to include at lease one unit of Devoted in the army. Maybe the min. unit size should be modified to be 5+ rather than 10+ (but with a caveat that units below 10 don’t count towards the minimum no. of Core units in the army), but I think that they are just so damned characteristic of the Cult, that it shouldn’t be possible to field an army without at least one unit of them.
As it’s been mentioned, the rules for Soporific Musk has changed since the 6th ed. I too feel that we should retain the 6th ed. rules for the Soporific Musk, and then come up with a new name for it. I can’t remember the previous suggestion on this, but as I recall it was an OK suggestion.
And finally on the Devoted, then I believe that we should keep the option for the Mistress/Champion to take Speed of Slaanesh (always strike first) for +10 pts. +25 pts. would be too expensive for a unit champion.
Basically I’d make no changes to the 6th ed Devoted, when converting them to 7th ed. 12 pts./model is arguably expensive, but given the abilities I believe that it is justified. Someone argued in favour of reducing the abilities for the Devoted, and then reducing the cost/model. I’m against that. The unit is deadly, and IMO it should be. Especially if we severely limit the access to other hard hitting Chaos units like Knights and Warriors/Chosen.


Completely agree, I think one mandatory 10+ devoted unit per REQUIRED 3 core choices (as said before, but I've gotta recap some of this stuff) making it 1 unit at 2000, 2 at 5000, 3 at 8000 etc. Simple, effective, (for me) done.

Kyrel wrote:
Daemons
I’m all for Daemons of Slaanesh having a place in the Cult of Pleasure army. However, I also believe that they should be limited in qty. in the army, and that they should have less options than they have in the Daemon army book. And with less options I mean no upgrades (equipment, command group, or otherwise), and no Daemonic characters besides the Keeper. Daemons are tools and a means to an end for the Druchii. Nothing more IMO.


I think that the Daemon problem is solved by my above summoning rules, and that Herald should be in. If the summoning isn't enough, include this too

“You can include 1 Daemonic unit per Sorceress in the army, and 2 per Supreme Sorceress.”

but I think that's overkill with the way things are, as a Sorc has to be general, (with my rules) you need enough to cover your Daemons (or keep them close to the general) and if your going to be having too many Daemons outside your ranges than you'll need a few power dice...

As above, I think Daemons should still get command group (the banner for combat res, musician for tied combats and champion for wounds) should be an option as they need the combat bonus' to stop themselves falling apart, but think no magic banners for Daemons (or Chaos Warriors and Knights....). The Cult Sorcs (who I imagine are keepers of magic artefacts) aren't going to give out their precious items to someone who might vanish out of reality with it at any moment, or who might just decide to walk off back to the north... (covered before but recap nessecary)

Kyrel wrote:
Shades:
IMO we should use the new rules for the Shades, and let them remain as a Core selection. However, as it would undoubtedly be too cheesy to allow an entire army with nothing but Shades, 1 Sorceress, and 1 unit of minimum size Devoted, we’d need a rule to prevent this. My suggestion would be:

No more than one unit of Shades per 1000 pts. in the army count as Core. Further Shade units that that count as Special. Thus a 2000 pts. army with 3 units of Shades would have them count as 2 Core units, and 1 Special unit.


Here is one of the places where I for once see that things are getting unnecessarily complicated. All that sounds way too hard. Just leave shades as special. Interestingly I had a similar idea here:

MartialArtist wrote:
I think Shades should be split to be 2 units, say "Bloodclan Shades" (Core, same as DE book but 4WS and BS, no upgrade for great weapons or bloodshade, don't count to min core, and possibly lose "Scout" rule?) and "Blackspine shades" (same as DE book). I can easily imagine the cult equipping a few of the warriors as skirmishers even though they wouldn't form the bulk of the army, with a few elite and specialized scouts being brought in when nessecary. Just opens up a few more options.


But as always there was a problem...
NOTE: Weenth I don't mean to attack you, and your often right when you stop me (I am flawed though and think MOST of the stuff I say should be in, but others have their opinions and that's good that they are here to correct me), so don't take this (or above where I had a little vent on my ideas and their lack of fruition...) as any sort of insult.

Weenth wrote:
Shades
I don't think that creating 'core sub-shades' unit is needed. Fluff-wise regular DE army might have few warriors equipped as skirmishers as well, yet they don't - so a really good reason on the rules/balance side would be needed.

The way I see it, Shades were core in 6th CoS, because someone thought 'hey, we're moving fast cavalry to special; unless we put skirmishers or flyers as core, they'll end up with just regular M5/4 infantry'
In current version of the list (even with Furies as special) we have (albeit more CC than shooty) fast cavalry unit (Marauder Horsmen) and M6 infantry to boot (Daemonettes), so we have some diversity in that aspect.

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Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:42 am
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