|Cult of Slaanesh rewrite discussion
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|Author:||Heat-13 [ Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:54 am ]|
|Post subject:||Cult of Slaanesh rewrite discussion|
So... the cult is coming back. And we are rebuilding it ourselves. For those of you, who don't know what I'm talking about, see this thread: http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t= ... sc&start=0
Basically, it would be great to the CoS list remade, so the general opinion was to do it as a druchii.net project, similar to the warbands.
Our mission is to:
- Rewrite the CoS army list to fit in with the new rules editions. This includes updating unit entries, magic items, special rules, everything.
- Have fluff to go with the list.
- Maybe even have artwork to go with it, if we find a Slaaneshi artist.
This is a pretty large task. So first of all I think it would be good to start from the basic discussion of the old list. What was so good about it that made lots of druchii players love it? What was not so good? What can we see go in the new reincarnation (mortals seem to be taking the brunt of the exile votes)?
Last, but definitely not least, who is interested in helping to write this thing? We need rules people, writers, artist and playtesters (those come later, but we need them still).
So now go forth and discuss the list!
|Author:||Rugi [ Sat Sep 13, 2008 12:33 pm ]|
I will help however I can so count me in. I´m not a good writer or artist but can help with rules development.
So once again about the good and bad stuff.
The presence of daemons in this list is great and gives it another dimension. Mortals however don´t really belong here. Like which mortal champion would lead his army 1000 miles to aid elves?
The ability to take chaos armour was a bit silly in the old list. Chaos armour is permanently fused to your body and you can´t remove it. Not a very good idea for those who try to stay hidden within society. Only anointeds should have the option to wear them because they are already permanently marked by chaos.
Core units were quite good but I think that daemon units should not be core. So daemonettes to special.
Shades are a bit to powerful to be left in core. Maybe one unit in the army could be core but others special.
Of course no monsters and chariots in the list. Also no black guards, harpies and khainite units.
I don´t know about furies as they are not slaaneshy daemons but fiends and seekers should definitely be in. Seekers taking a special slot and fiends taking a rare and maybe also special slot.
This is all for now
|Author:||Mr. tibbs [ Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:35 pm ]|
First: The closer we can stick to GW's official stuff, the better chance this list has of gaining approval from our fellow gamers. So I think that any kind of upgrades, new units, and special rules should be either taken wholesale from the current DE or Slaanesh lists or just be some kind of reasonable combination of the two.
For example, unfettered access to both Demonic Gifts and the Treasures of Naggaroth would be a bad best-of-both-worlds move, and should probably be avoided. If the choices are limited in a way that maximizes the theme of the army--which I think should be speed and deadliness, a kind of Druchii concentrate--it will be more fun to play with and against.
That means that things like the Executioner's Axe and the Armor of Living Death might be considered for exclusion. But the inclusion of some Demonic Gifts will, I think, more than make up for the loss of items like those two listed above by improving the character and alternative feel of the army.
Uh-oh. Time for me to be disliked, but...
The Druchii Anointed is pretty overwhelmingly cited as reason number one for people wanting the list remade; however, the character as-is doesn't really feel like an elf to me. This is entirely owing to the stat line: He's Malekith, +1 Initiative, and that's not what we should do here.
Remember, this is our creation, not GW's, and, if we're going to exclude mortals and Cold Ones we can't justify the inclusion of a super-elf. I think a better way to approach the Anointed is to grant a a character with the Death Hag's statline access to a *limited* selection from Slaanesh's Demonic Gifts, as well as some possible low level sorcery (but only Slaaneshi magic).
Worshipping Khorne or Nurgle might grant an elf some enhanced burliness, but the reason Slaanesh is such a good thematic fit for the DEs is that Slaanesh is about being agile, effete, and deadly. The slightly boosted initiative of the Death Hag represents this much better than the best-of-both-worlds Anointed from the og CoS.
And, if that character is given *limited* access to some Demonic Gifts and maybe the option of level 1 Slaaneshi magic, I think it will give a lot of unique customizability while keeping the list palatable for opponents.
After all, what good is all this if people refuse to play against the list?
So, my idea for a Druchii Anointed in bullets:
-Death Hag statline
-Mark of Slaanesh
-Limited choices of Slaaneshi Demonic Gifts (I like the ones from OG CoS, but would ammend Allure of Slaanesh to affect CC instead of shooting)
-Access to the revised magic item list that will (hopefully) be forthcoming
-Optional upgrade to level 1 Slaaneshi magic
-No Cold Ones or Chariot mounts
This may at first seem limited--especially when compared to the incredible Anointed from the OG SoC--but I think it gives lots of options while maintaining the character of the army and keeping the list as close as possible to GW's official rules (which will make it easier to get your opponent's permission to use it).
Remember, we're not trying for a super invincible best-of-both-worlds list here--this should be about character and customization. At least, that's what I think.
EDIT: Make the above description for a Hero level Druchii Chosen (or something similar), and include a Lord level Druchii Anointed with Hellebron's statline and the option to be a level two magic user.
|Author:||Iyagd [ Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:48 pm ]|
Okay. After long deliberation I think it should go in Ideas forum. It is the best place for new ideas, developing units, army lists.
Therefore I'm moving it there.
|Author:||Crazyhorse [ Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:05 pm ]|
Well Mr. tibbs I think you hit it on the head, we are not trying to make beardy cult of slaanesh here just balance it out and help it enter the 7th ed rules. I like your idea for the druchii anointed, now I am assuming to get the level one slaanesh magic they would be getting the mark right?
I am here for the ideas and such as my army is not with me currently.
So I would want to see the mortal chaos dropped, exept for making the marauders special. While the druchii despise all lesser races these druchii may make an execption if their god tells them to. I would also think swaping dark riders to core and shades to special is a good idea. Drop the cold ones please, to me it just isn't fluffy. Don't they loose feeling when they become knights, the whole cold one don't eat me I am your master stage. Maybe add a chaos giant in for rare? Finally add in menghils, he seems to get please out of killing, almost in a slaaneshi way.
Feel free to shoot down any of the ideas.
|Author:||Dalamar [ Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:08 pm ]|
I'm all for Cult of Pleasure, yes, that's the proper name of it.
Not Cult of Slaanesh
We worship Atharti and use chaos to further our goals.
So in that line:
no marks of any god
no gifts of chaos
yes for access to slaanesh lore (wait for mortal chaos to be released IMO)
no to chaos units of any kind.
Definitely use a lot of witch elf rules with theme changing.
For Druchii Anointed (since it's the one mentioned above)
- Death Hag stats boosted to Lord status (WS +1, I +1, A +1) with access to magic levels (two max)
- No armour options
- No mounts other than Dark Steed/Dark Pegasus/Black Dragon
- ItP instead of Frenzy
- Eternal Hatred
Witch Elves made core with loss of Frenzy in favour of ItP, no poison and possible drop of 1 point (to offset the lack of poison), and renamed to Devotees of Atharti
No assassins allowed.
Harpies go back to special (beliefs are one facts are other, harpies are just beasts not spirits of fallen witch elves)
Warriors/Dark Riders stay as is
No Cold One Knights (or any cold one mounts in the army)
No Corsairs or corsairs moved to special.
Bolt Throwers and Hydrae as is
Shades no change.
Death Hag turning into Priest(ess) of Atharti with same stats but ItP instead of Frenzy and no poison.
Access to the Altar of Exquisite Depravities instead of Cauldron of Blood (different abilities too but effectively the same thing)
No Dreadlord option (replaced by Anointed)
|Author:||Fingol23 [ Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:12 pm ]|
This is a cult of slaanesh list to give it its proper name as we are redoing the original cult of slaanesh list (found here) I like the idea of having a devoted style death hag. As for including chaos mortal units what are peoples views on standard marauders? They were quite a major part of the original fluff and are hardly going to unbalance the list compared to our own cheap spearmen but do provide the opportunity for something a bit different.
|Author:||Dalamar [ Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:46 pm ]|
I'll have to be with Milney on this one then.
Druchii do not ally themselves with Chaos.
That SoC list is a butchering of fluff.
Even its own fluff to be honest
Morathi used the chaos warriors/daemons to server her. She did not suddenly gain mark of her tool and servant, yet in the rules she has... and all her sorceresses became equally marked. I mean WTH?
Cult of Pleasure =! Cult of Slaanesh
GW made a booboo on that one for Storm of Chaos.
|Author:||Mr. tibbs [ Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:55 pm ]|
I am against any kind of mortal, including marauders.
But I think Demonettes should definetely be included to fill out the army's character more.
I'm also kind of liking the Cult of Pleasure idea. Instead of a Mark of Slaanesh (which we don't even know what it will do), all models might have the Cult of Pleasure special rule. This might confer immunity to psychology? Or something else? I like the ItP idea, though.
I think that, whatever we end up calling the list, its defining special rules should be
Cult of Pleasure: all models in the army are immune to psychology, and
Eternal Hatred: unchanged from DE book
I've been working on characters and their options; here's what I've got, briefly:
-May use Dark or Slaanesh magic
-May use Dark or Slaanesh
-Dreadlord options, except no SDC or handbows and mounts limited to Dark Steed, Dark Peg, Steed of Slaanesh
-Level 1 Wizard, may upgrade to level 2, may only use Lore of Slaanesh
-Death Hag statline
-Master options except no Beastmaster scourge, no SDC or handbows, and mounts limited to Dark Steed and Dark Peg
-May use Dark or Slaanesh
Priest(ess) of Atharti (from Dalamar):
-Access to a Temple of Atharti (upgrades)
-May upgrade to Level 1 Wizard, may only use Slaanesh
This gives some flexibility, especially at the hero level, where there is a strong CC option, a strong magic option, and a part CC/part magic option.
It also makes the Anointed a pretty strong character, but still with the statline and inherent weaknesses of an elf. But wow, these guys will probably have to be kind of expensive...
EDIT: P.s.: PM me with your e-mail address and I will send you the above info--plus a little more--in army book form.
|Author:||Dalamar [ Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:10 pm ]|
ehem, Priestess of Atharti would use Slaanesh magic the *least* of all the choices... really. I see them more along the lines of Khainite priestesses, with elven gods' powers being less direct in their manifestation (altar variation of CoB being a good example)
|Author:||Mr. tibbs [ Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:19 pm ]|
Ah. I'm not really up on my fluff that much, I guess. But I worry that the list might be moving a bit away from its roots, as contrary to fluff as those roots may be, if we don't include the Slaanesh magic option.
I would like to hear more about Atharti though. Why is Slaanesh magic such a bad choice for them? And what would be a better choice? Is there any way we can integrate the two elements into a list? I really like the Cult of Pleasure idea, but most people expressing interest here have done so in support of something with a Slaanesh theme, so...yeah. What can be done?
|Author:||Dalamar [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:59 am ]|
Well, in warhammer universe priests are not wizards. They use spells but they have different source of them.
So while a sorceress in Cult of Pleasure might have access to more forbidden lores of magic, a priest/ess of Atharti certainly wouldn't be able to cast even Dark Magic.
|Author:||Rugi [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:05 pm ]|
What is up with this "Atharti"?
We are not making a new list, we are rewriting the old one.
If we will change it completely there is no point of rewriting.
We should tune down the anointed to dreadlord stats (but stays with daemonic ward save and fear).
I don´t like the idea of ItP as a army wide rule but most of the army should be.
If cold-ones don´t fit in this army I don´t see how hydras and black dragons can.
About harpies. In fluff they are supposed to be creatures of Khaine so they should definitely be excluded from the list.
|Author:||Heat-13 [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:49 pm ]|
Hmm... we seemed to be faced with a decision - Slaanesh or Athari?
I personally think that we should go with Slaanesh, as that was the original list (it wasn't a cult of pleasure list, it was a dark alliance type list). And Slaanesh is more powerful with Atharti, also there are demonettes with Slaanesh. And a lot of people are very keen on demons =P
As for the list how does this sound:
Morathi - I am personally against this fluff wise, but I still think she should be included
Supreme sorceress - dark magic, maybe slaaneshi magic...
Anointed - death hag with + 1 to WS, I, A and W. Immune to psy. L1 - L2 casting ability, lore of slaanesh. ( I would just keep him a L1 though with no L2 upgrade). I think the only way to decide is to playtest him with several statlines.
Sorceress - dark magic, again maybe Slaaneshi magic
Druchii Chosen - melee character. Shall we go for fast and light armoured or for something more solid? I'd go for something fast. Death Hag stats would do nicely I think. Immune to psychology would be good instead of frenzy.
Priest/Priestess - I really like the idea of priest characters. We could do something like the empire does, but with druchii. (Note: If we do end up designing a priest magic lore thing, the annointed should have access to it, rather then having magic levels)
Devoted. Witch elves with mark of slaanesh instead of frenzy.
Harpies (I agree with Dalamar, fact vs rumor - spirits of witch elves is not confirmed, it just a rumor but obviously we can replace harpies with something else, as a lot of people don't seem to like them)
Maybe introduce a new elite uni like temple guards (as we've removed both BG and execs)
Fiend of slaanesh? We need to have at least one monster...
Slaaneshi altar (i.e cauldron of blood/anvil of doom type thing)
THINGS NOT INCLUDED:
Cold one Knights and chariots. Executioners, black guard. Hydras, manticores, black dragons. Hags witch elves assassins.
As for the special rules. Eternal hatred (for druchii) should be there definitely as everybody I think agrees to that and its the main druchii rule. The annointed should definitely have demonic gifts, but his stats should be tuned down by a bit. Chosen should also have access to demonic gifts. Marks of Slaanesh should be used (but we don't know what they are yet - speaking of which when does the new mortal armybook come out?). Same gos for the lore of Slaanesh I think it should be used fluffwise, but its up to debate and we don't know what spells there are, so we should delay our discussion about Slaaneshi spells and marks until the book arrives.
Anyway feel free to tear up my suggestions for the list. Also what do you think about my new unit suggestions...
Loving the input and the creative flow here, keep it up people! Seriously I am genuinely amazed by everybody's input, this is so much better then what I could have ever hoped for!
|Author:||Dalamar [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:47 pm ]|
To ride a dragon or hydra you don't have to cover yourself with slime which *numbs* your senses.
Now show me how many followers of Slaanesh or Atharti would deliberately dull what they treasure the most?
I can agree with heat's list mostly except few parts.
Elves are naturally resistant to mutations, and as such to gifts and marks.
If you insist on Mark of Slaanesh and Gifts of Chaos I would limit them to Druchii Anointed *only* because they supposedly spent all their time after the Sundering in the chaos wastes... and even that didn't change them much.
Dark Elves believe themselves superior even to the twisted powers of chaos. Bearing a mark is a symbol of servitude, slavery to chaos god. No Druchii would ever accept one.
|Author:||Heat-13 [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:29 pm ]|
Dalamar you make an excellent point. However some druchii will willingly strike a deal with chaos and allow themselves to be tainted. So, as you have said limit the marks.
I think Anointed, Chosen and Devotees should be able to access the marks.
As for the monsters. Hydra I think might be ok. But if you take a black dragon to your local cult gathering, I think someone might notice =P
|Author:||Weenth [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:47 pm ]|
Glad there's intrest in reviving the list.
I agree with idea of keeping as close to orignal CoS list as possible without breaking fluff & army balance.
As for fluff:
Actually, they do; not only in the SoC fluff, but also in DE fluff (current AB, p.30,31,33)
As for Morathi having MoS - good point. I guess question is: is Mark of Chaos god a sign of submission to that god or can it be viewed as merly a sign of a pact?
As for fluff butchering, SoC build up on previous fluff:
- Morathi, elf sorceress saved from Slaaneshii warband/group of daemons (version depending on edition of fluff - I gues we can say it was warband of Slaneshii Daemons.
- Morathi founded Cult of Pleasure
- when she first appeared in 4/5th ed. Morathi got acess to Slaaneshii magic in regular DE list (no MoS though)
- this is leaving out all the pre-4th ed. Fluff pointing directly to Slaanesh worshipping among Dark Elves
I'd rather say it was 7 ed. AB that did fluff butchering:
- switching 'Cult of Pleasure' to 'Cults of Pleasure/Excess' everywhere in AB (except for Morathi's description )
- thus introducing new gods, never mentioned before (AFAIK at least - except for 'Dark Mother' in Malus series, not explaining who/what she is) and with spheres interloping with existing elven gods (Morai-Heg vs. Ereth Kial anyone?)
My attempt at CoS AL can be found here:
Of course it was written before new rumours about WoC AB appeared (just ignore Warriors&Knights entries - IMO they should simply follow WoC, like Marauder entry does (I hope ) ) and before this discussion - which gave new thoughts, so:
1. SoC fluff indicates at army consisting of 4 'allies':
- Morathi and DE units under her command (Slaaneshii cultists as well as regular DE just doing their job)
- Daemons summoned by Morathi and her Sorceresses (Slaaneshii daemons mostly, but Furies also fit IMHO, as they are 'common' and DE sorcery generaly has much connection to daemons.
- Marauders worshipping Slaneesh (under name of Shaarnor)
- elves from Chaos Wastes (Anointed)
So according to that marauders are a must in the list, but only explanation i see for Chaos Warriors & Knights is they're part of Anointed retinue. Question is if CW as special and CK as 'double rare' is appropriate for that. Maybe move also CW to rare? Dump both?
Also, due to above, Slaaneshii herald and marauder hero (like in WD Norse Colony list) options would be welcome, while chaos hero might not be needed
2. SoC speaks openly of Slaanesh-worshipping among DE; so MoS available for DE units and characters is reasonable (if not for Morathi); True, most Dark Elves believe them themselves superior to Chaos, but as Anointed example shows, some accept their Mark (on a side note - how many humans got lured by Chaos, believing they are superior and can handle it?).
3. Slaaneshi magic for Morathi is a must in my opinion, as well as for spell-casters with MoS.
4. Still, we need to avoid contradictions with 7 ed. fluff. IMHO the most resonable way is assuming Cult of Slaanesh is one of the original Cults of Exces/Pleasure; secondary problem being: is Athari another name for Slaanesh or not - seeing as Khaine and Khorne distinction is present)
5. I agree with Dalamar about numbing slime; although this one offers some fluff opportunities - maybe allow COK only with MoS, showing how they gave themselves to Chaos to get back the sensations they lost?
6. Seeing as DE general would rather let humans play the part of cannon fodder, DE warriors and Chaos marauders at the same price (with latter being evidently worse option) feels wrong to me. I think upping the price of Warriors by 1 point should do the trick.
7. Harpies might be a choice, but it's quite simple to replace them with furies to aviod fluff issues with their possible Khaine/Wich Elf relation.
8. As Chaos-tainted hero Anointed in my opinion *might* have T4 (other Slaaneshi champions do); I guess it's more a question of balance
1. I think CoS should be unique in gameplay rather than carbon copy of regular dark elves. 6th ed. list achieved this by granting:
- equally hitty and toughier but slower infantry option instead of some elven units (CH replacing BG and E)
- more elite/specialized T3 infantry in core (devoteed, daemonettes, shades)
- granting toughier hero options (KoS & Anointed) with additional options (chaos gifts)
- granting 'ogre-sized' creature (spawn)
- all big monster options
- fast cavalry from core and chariots from the list altogether
- khainite bounses (gifts for characters & cauldron)
These are in my opinion the changes which most affect the CoS list playstyle and I vote for keeping to them; however if with T3 Anointed can still be more resilient than Master - and I think with Chaos Armour and gifts he can indeed, then its ok.
Also, as I mentioned above option for 'equally resilent, cheaper but slower' unit - i.e. Maruaders would be welcome, as in 6th ed. only reason to take them instead of warriors was fluff (that's why I took them oh, actually, if unarmoured they attract shoting better than warriors, so this just _might_ help to protect Deveotees )
2. As for changes needed - if devotees are to keep their unique ability and gain eternal hatred they need to be toned down (as they're core I don't think upping cost is a good solution), my proposition is to make them 1 attack basic (so 2, not 3 with AHW)
3. Introducing new choices from DoC - Herald and Fiend is ok IMHO, as they don't interfere with list overall feeling (fighty and fast but costy and fragile + toughier/cheaper but slower infantry options). Although I think Herald should be 0-1, like Aspiring Champion in 6th ed. list and without chariot option.
4. One more thing witch I think needs changing is moving shades back to special or making them weaker somehow - in their new incarnation they're just to-elite for core unit.
/sorry for any spelling errors - english is not my primary language; if you find any, please pm me, so I can correct myself/
/edit reason: typos/
|Author:||Dalamar [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:51 pm ]|
This is not Drowtales.
Druchii use chaos, don't strike pacts with them.
Mutual benefit sure, but not servitude
Mark is a servitude. It's a brand from your master. Unmistakeable symbol of your slavery fused to your flesh, most of the time in a hard to hide place.
Anointed spent most of their lives in the chaos wastes, constantly subject to the corrupting powers of darkness.
They became slaves to chaos gods in eyes of other Druchii (one of the reasons why Anointed couldn't be army general even if upgraded to spellcaster, and something that should stay).
We're also talking about cult *army*
you're not bringing dragon to the cult's ceremony. you bring it to WAR
|Author:||Rugi [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:13 pm ]|
There is a new rule for suporific musk which only gives bonuses when you pursue so they should stay as they are.
All in all I´m completely with Weenth.
|Author:||Weenth [ Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:49 am ]|
Surely pact can give a mutual benefit? Anyway, I get your idea; No Slaanesh-worshipping elves in dark elf society - right?
It, sadly, also looks like it's exactly what GW thinks about it currently:
http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/ ... ackground/
Sadly, because not only does that contradicts previous fluff, but also means there should be no CoS list; or at the very least it means no slaaneshi DE units (no marks, no devotees and no chaos armour nor slaanesh lore access for DE heroes) as in this case it's simply regular DE army under Morathi allying with Chaos Marauders and Daemons, Anointed being its sole unique element.
Don't know about others, but for me at least such list would not be interesting. That's why I prefere another approach - marying older fluff with 7 ed.
I think we can assume that fluff in each AB is biased to focus on and enhance that army's main style and character (AFAIR that is also a thing Gav wrote in his Mechanical Hamster). After all, Bretonnian AB doesn't mention Wood Elf manipulations on their religion, High Elves AB speaks nothing of Cults of Excess on Ulthuan in present times. Also DE AB tells us that they "can take joy only from the suffering of others" and "see the artful endavours as [...] evidence of weakness", yet they create ornate (not just functional) weapons & armour and also andorn their castles with more than just slain bodies (well, according to WAR screenshots at least )
With such assumption we can put it that _most_ dark elves would not succumb to any Chaos god. Yet, as there are many who are ready to devote themselves to elven god such as Khaine, some can be found who will devote to Slaanesh. Of course, as they are against 'mainstream ideology' of DE society they would be presecuted - and according to older fluff that's just the way it is - CoS is hidden and only currently, thanks to Morathi's protection it showed up. (this BTW is excellent reason for CoS-DE battles )
How is it that Chaos god worship is present within elven society since Aenarion times? Well, if it's inspirator is great conspirator such as Morathi, who had to pay Slaanesh with something for power bestowed upon her (since she wanted to keep her own soul, how about souls of new followers?), she might conceal Chaos god as elven god - Atharti; or mabe she made up such elven cult and Atharti never truly existed (being simply another Slaanesh name, like marauder's god Shaarnor or many decadent cults in Empire)? Who knows? I guess we've got here people more adept with writing fluff than I, who will find the way to join it somehow together nicely.
I know, new SM works very similiar to Corsair's Slavers rule.
Personally, I'd rather change the name and keep the rule. Balance-wise, that's due to two fact that Devoteed are a rare case of 'Must-have', 1+ unit, and I'd want them to be useful against all armies, including ASF High Elves; the original SM grants them needed protection in h-t-h. (hit on 5+ by WS4 units)
Still, even with new SM rules champion's option for ASF upgrade helps with HE (and makes up for lack of CoB which similiary working witches can use to protect them). I'd just lower their cost by about 2 points then (looking at them as armourless corsairs with better stats or WE with worse special rules but slightly better WS).
So it goes down to how does one envisage this unit. Personally I prefere Devoteed to be less killy than frezied Witch Elves, rather relying on Slaaneshii luring power in combat than martial prowess, but that's my vision - definitly not what they were in 6th ed CoS list, where they used both.
Nice to see two of us agree on main ideas of the list. How about others? What do you guys think?
|Author:||Matricide [ Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:55 am ]|
Hi. I'm not much of a fluff-writer myself either but I gradly help out with rules and playtesting.
First, I really want the heavy-hitters to become reduced.
DE are about speed and hitting hard, right? My idea of a CoP-army is loosening up the killy part a bit for the Slaaneshi-part of psychological breakdown for the enemy.
I would rather see units with lower strength with more attacks and AP. And more ASF/AP/alluring magic items/abilities instead of stuff like Executioner's axe (heck, any GW at all), KB and potions of strength..
Actually, I'm not entirely sure about the Eternal hatred rule for all units either. Sure, they are DE, but I'd rather give drugged fanatic cultists Frenzy (or even eternal frenzy?) instead.
It's not like the cultists are less obsessed about tearing enemies apart than the WE, at least not in how I see them. It's just that IMHO they do it for the pleasure more than because of hatred for them.
And I'm a bit inclined to go both ways about the Anointed. Sure, maybe they shouldn't be as powerful stat-wise as Malekith. But then, the two of them are the only elves seeped through by such amounts of daemon pacts and magic.
At any point, however, I don't like the idea of marauders among druchii. The only humans I'd see in a CoP-army would be drugged up pleasure-slaves.. who could be used as bait/cannon fodder?
Another unit I would love to have would be an Alter of flesh/pleasure/whatever it could be called, as a Rare choice. Being something like a cauldron of blood, but instead of giving killy abilities belonging to Khaine it could give speedy/alluring abilities, belonging more to a CoP army.
Could give blessings/curses similar to the Masque of Slaanesh. Nominate a unit within a distance, and give them something like:
1. Reduce their M value
2. Reduce their WS and BS value
3. Reduce their Ini value, if ASF they lose it and fight with their normal Ini
4. Reducing Ld
With a Hierophant (or whatever you want to call a CoP-hero), the effects could be increased:
1. Halve M value, also reducing their flee/pursuit moves
2. Increase your own units M value, perhaps including ability to re-roll flee/pursuit rolls?
3. Having every enemy in a unit take an individual Ld test (their own, no help from characters). If it's failed, they can't shoot. If in close combat, they can't attack.
4. Making a unit always strike last.
5. Reducing Ld even more, or giving other effects as well.
Plus, if anyone would like the idea of Frenzied cultists, give them Eternal frenzy when close enough to it.
How about it?
|Author:||Valeron the forgotten [ Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:01 am ]|
Dalamar why are you arguing with these guys over making a list they would like to revive you do not have to use it. The reason they are making it is for their own enjoyment does it matter if it feels like it is butchering fluff to you? Are they going to use this list against you? Are you going to use this list? I doubt it just let them get on with it. I personally am not going to use the list as i do not enjoy the idea behind it and the fluff but they are intitled to try to make this if they want.
|Author:||Weenth [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:24 am ]|
A little quiet in here.
I guess to further discuss ideas given so far we must first make a couple general decisions about the list. The way I see it, there are three, interloping with each other:
1. What fluff behind the list?
So far we have 3 main propositions:
- follow the fluff for 6th ed list - Morathi gathering together DE, Daemons, Marauders and other chaos followers under banners of Slaanesh
- make up new fluff, concentraiting on Slaaneshii elements among Druchii - so DE units and Daemons only, no chaos mortals
- follow exactly 7th ed DE fluff - so Cult of Pleasure/Atharti list, no Slaanesh; I guess that means no daemons, no mortal chaos, only DE; also excluding khainite elements and replacing them with appropraite Atharti units/choices
2. How conservative/innovative list?
- Conservative - use mainly entries/rules existing in DE (or other) AB, rather modifications than changing many rules
- Innovative - changing army rules, totaly new (but fluffy) unit & character types, new spell lores
3. What playstyle?
least discution on this one so far; maybe because it is most influenced by other two questions; anyway, we have at least following choices:
- like 6th ed list concentrate on elite infantry at the cost of removal of monsters and reduced availibilty of fast units
- 'focus on speed and finesse' - as mr. tibbs put it; so quite different thing, more speeders and flyers at the cost of infantry I guess, also less tough/heavy units and more of 'deadly but fragile' type units
of course there's still an option for playstyle like 'vanilla' DE; any other ideas?
As for my point of view & preferences about the following:
# fluff seems to me the most important decision, as it influences strongly the other two:
- 6th ed fluff gives only little place for new units and innovation, as we're already spoiled with choice bigger than most other armies (especially if we want to include all Slaaneshii daemon types); so conservative; as for playstyle, if might go its 'default' elite infantry way, or be somewhere between this and 'speed&light' depending on what's in core, special & rare
- 'only DE&Daemons mix' seems naturally inclined for a speed army, also leaves place for new choices; so innovative
- 'Cult of Arathi', looking from ideas about it so far, seems to me like a themed 'vanilla' DE army - almost the same effect can be achieved with original list and there isn't much that can be added within boundaries of 7th AB fluff; so conservative (only with different POV on what to base on - 7 ed AB, not 6th ed CoS list)
# I think we all agree that we want a list that would be used by many people; it seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that most people want Slaaneshii theme (in whatever way) and of those who think Slaanesh is unfluffy most don't want to use such optional list anyway.
# So with mortals or without them, I'd say Slaanesh is a must if we are to devote work & time for this project. My personal preferences aside (for a moment ), ideas of both 'Slaanesh in DE society' and 'Slaaneshii Dark Allience' list seem to have their fans, and both can make for balanced and somewhat different from 'vanilla' DE lists.
- If we decide to go for 'Pure DE/Daemon' list 'Dark Alliance' fans (including me) would lose option for the mortal units they like and possibly already have models made for. On the other, there still is an option (even if it's not what is wanted) for them to play with 6th ed list.
- If we decide to go for 'Dark Alliance revision', still have an option of playing 'Pure DE/Daemon' list, just like Daemon players have option for pure Slaaneshii list. Still, that means restriction in choice (although not as harsh as mentioned Slaanesh Daemon army) and - I guess more importantly - less place for invention, new units, etc.
- If we decide to go for '2in1' we would be justly accused of wanting the best of both worlds, as we would be probably more spoiled with choices than O&G players.
# Another option is to go for '2in2' - as in 'hey, why don't we make 2 new, separate unofficial Army Books?'
I'm just afraid there won't be enough volunteers for that. Throwing around ideas and (even occasional) input in discussion do give much; still, someone needs to work on it to create a usable (thought-through, balanced and playtested) list, moreso complete army book with fluff, art & layout; that requires much more time and devotion
Some people might be interested in both projects, some just in one; my proposition is - let everyone interested in active input (those who already did say they are, as well as others) declare what way they want the project to go; like:
A) I want to do 6th ed. Dark Alliance CoS type
B) I want to do pure DE/Daemon CoS type
C) I'll glady work on both
D) I have another idea for CoS witch I'd rather focus my work on ('Atharti Slaanesh-less' list might go here; anyway, brief description of one's idea is necessary)
How about such kind of quasi-poll? ('quasi' - as personal declarations are needed to know if there are enough people for a project) I hope it would help as to get some structure and move on with project.
On a side note - if we are to develope this project, separate sub-forum would help much; don't know about You guys, but I feel now like trying to stick 3 different post together, ('What way should our project go? What choices we have?'; 'What am I personally ready to do for the project?'; 'My current ideas for mortal part of the army'), done with the first part and it's already page long - it would help me a lot if we could have separate topics for that.
heat-13, You think it can be done?
Anyway, here's latter two topics in short:
For me it's A; I simply like my marauders (or rather - marauderesses ) and spawns too much so I probably won't use list made fully without mortals. Hence my much bigger readiness to work on 'Dark Alliance CoS' - rules, art and fluff areas (in decending order of preference, as I have enough of graphic work outside my hobby and don't think I'm a good writer, though I guess throwing new ideas and keeping consistency of fluff is what I can handle)
While WoC is not out yet, there are many 99,9% confirmed rumours. Summary can be found here:
http://z4.invisionfree.com/cotec/index. ... topic=3702
I think it includes most of what we need to know (also I'm happy Slaaneshii lore didn't change much), so if we're including mortals, we can already start the work; I did I'll wait till we have some general direction decision, to see if there's sense to post it; no need to make this post any longer now.
|Author:||Rugi [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:54 am ]|
I finally read the 7.ed fluff yesterday and it was all about daemons.
Cultists are mentioned as the ones who use chaos magic and its power. I don´t know if Slaanesh is even mentioned but its presence is there all along the story.
So B is my first choice and a second is A. Don´t like D at all...
|Author:||Fingol23 [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:20 pm ]|
I would work on A or B but i would prefer A but with the only marauders being allowed as mortals.
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