|Cult of Slaanesh - Playtesting Feedback
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|Author:||Weenth [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:14 pm ]|
|Post subject:||Cult of Slaanesh - Playtesting Feedback|
(update - 11.10.09) Below I'm giving (updated) list of top priority issues to be checked. Please pay special attention to them:
1. Are there any broken combos (especially items/gifts set for Anointed)? Try to make the most cheesy one you can.
2. Is there any important hole in magic items that creates a weakness for this army?
3. Please try out the following items:
- Lash of Acquiesence
- Rod of Binding
- Banner of the Great Temptator
Do you find them balanced and useful or useless? Or maybe cheesy/a bit too good?
4. How does Effigy of Excess rules work out? What are it's biggest advantages and weaknesses in your opinion and - more importantly - experience?
Ok, so this is the place for all the feedback and impressions about the CoS list (in case you're wondering what this is all about see here ). Battle reports also go here, although they may get separate topic if we get plenty.
That's all from me for now, waiting for your posts.
|Author:||Fingol23 [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:09 am ]|
The following feedback isn't based on a game but on writing my list prior to the game.
1. Annointed Ward Save: In my opinion the Annointed lacks a good value true ward save, at the moment he has a choice between the pathetic talisman of protection and the very expensive black amulet (note I have discounted the pendant because due to its new wording I'm not sure whether he is allowed to take it or it merely cannot be used as well as an armour save.
Possible solutions: Turn Daemonic Aura into a true ward save, maybe in conjunction with a slight increase in points seeing as he can't do anything with the last 10 anyway. Or restore the pendant to its previous function. I understand why it has been changed but with the removal of any way to acquire regen it won't be possiable to do some of the more extreme combos.
2. This is more of a clarification what exactly happens to the sorceress attending the effigy of excess and can a standard sorceress even accompany one?
3. On a related note I assume Eye of the pleasure god works the same way as in WOC. It might be beneficent to repeat those rules in the CoS rules.
I hope this was useful and look forward to trying out the list latter today.
|Author:||Weenth [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:41 am ]|
Thanks for feedback Fingol32, it indeed was very useful.
There should be a renegeration item (Crown of Everlasting Conquest), although I removed it by mistake (it doubled with DE regenerating item; but that one was also removed - because of its Khainite fluff), now it's back in the list.
The Pendant is indeed unavailable to Anointed (I've corrected the item's text to make it clearer).
My reasoning was that Regeneration and good AS make quite tough character by himself, so any protection options that can be taken on top of that should be limited and probably mutually exclusive. Armour + CoEC + PoK would be IMO too much, even CoEC + 5+ Ward would be a bit cheesy if combined with Narcotic Fumes gift. Hence change to PoK, as well as lack of good real ward save item.
However, your idea of changing Daemonic Aura gift sounds very good - it's either DA with real Ward Save or other gifts then. I've put that change into the list (leaving previous version as a comment for the time of combo-searching).
Yes, the Hero-level Sorceress can mount EoE too (entry fixed). I assume it's the 'attending' that lead to confusion. It simply means she uses it as a mount (fixed wording of that also).
They already are there - in 'Marauders & Northern Warband' part. (Anointed, being both druchii and Chaos Champion kinda belongs to both sections and I tried to keep current pdf short, without doubling descriptions).
|Author:||Mr_piechee [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:42 pm ]|
First off i'd like to say what an awesome job you guys have done! I've just been reading through it as i love it! I'm a bit bogged down at the moment, but towards the end of the summer I've got lots of time to give play testing a shot. I've never used the Cos army before, and don't have any demons, so i may have to see if my opponents will lets me proxy models.
page 4 - DAEMONIC INSTABILITY - point 2 - firs should be first
There was one other mistake i spotted as well, but can't remember it...
The dragon egg removal seems like a good idea to me. The 5 pt rod of binding seems very cheap to me, but it stops you using other very good arcane items, for not much gain, which balances out the cheap rod. making it 10-15 pts might work, but it would depend on what item combinations are commonly chosen, which will need more play testing...
Finally I have a question. If you have a Effigy how do you deal with a command group? Say I have a 5*2 unit (10 models). its joined by a Effigy (effectively 19 models)(i assume the sorceress stands on the top? or is she part of the 6?) and stays 5 wide. now you have a problem. what happens to the extra model... you have 5 models in the front rank, 3 of which are from the Effigy, and then 3 command models, so one has to drop back.
I would guess this has been addressed already, but it should be cleared up in the rules. Personally I would like to see the command group become part of the Effigy, but that doesn't seem very likely because of the extra complications it could cause.
|Author:||Weenth [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:14 pm ]|
I'm glade you like it. The list still needs some polishing out, but we've put a lot of effort in it and it's good to see it's appreciated.
Typo corrected, egg removed.
A bit more on that egg (and whole issue and reasons of removing): a bit of a problem with the list is quite big number of the options it gives.
It has it's reason in case of units/characters (we wanted this list to be playable also for those who don't want any kind of Chaos Mortals in there - without them it has about same number of entries as DE and even including Mortals that number is within range of some other ABs).
There is less reason for that in case of items. Daemonic Gifts are out of that calculation (they're fully separate - only daemonic entries can use them and daemonic entries use only them), so that leaves two lists of magic items (DE and Slaanesh) as well as Slaanesh Chaos Gifts. Other ABs have usualy 40-50 items; if they have something else (vampiric powers, WE spites, etc) the total is in 50-60 range.
Now, 9.2 version of CoS list had 56 different items and 13 Chaos gifts, resulting in total of 69. This means about 10 items/gifts should go. So now (v.9.25) I've removed the Egg and also marked 7 other items for removal (basing on their background/theme mostly).
If you see some other candidates for removal, let me know.
Hmm... not sure which version of Effigy rules you've read. The previous variant, with 6 attendants on separate bases and undestroyable Effigy was lately scrapped. Currently there are two versions (regular and alternate), both of which use Effigy with single profile and on 50x100 cm base (like Warshrine or Corpse Cart). The Sorceress uses it as a mount, so she's put on top of that.
The Effigy is put in the middle of the unit, so using GW's rules for mixing bases it means it replaces two regular Devoted in the front rank and also 2nd, 3rd and 4th rank. So unless you have additional characters in the unit there's still place in the front rank for full CG (and in any case running Devoted 6-wide would be more fluffy ).
Hope that clarifed things a bit.
|Author:||Mr_piechee [ Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:08 am ]|
ARrrr, i was thinking it would be placed the other way round (i.e. not like 6 people carrying a coffin, but 3 people at the front). I much prefer the non-alternate version of the Effigy. If its only got a frontage of 2, then aren't 9 attacks a bit over the top? I don't know how he WoC shrine thing works, so I can't compare, but I would work it just like 6 models, only they can't reform.
As for magic items... I hate removing banners as I feel there's never enough in army books! However all the blue dark elf items look good to go. While my bias opinion would want the banner to stay, the other hydra items are going, and since there aren't hydras in the list... With another Bias opinion I would love to see two ASF banners
|Author:||Weenth [ Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:09 am ]|
'non-alternate' meaning T3 one with 'Devotion to the End' rule, right? Could you elaborate a bit on the reasons? Is it that you simply think it's more interesting? More powerful? Something else? It'd be helpful if I know why exactly people prefere this version or another.
As for bases and attack... TBH only GW playtesters and designer know for 100% what base frontage & length does Chaos Warshrine use - they didn't bother with making a model for it so far... Anyway, it uses same basic rules as VC Corpse Cart, so I assume they share same model base&facing too.
Taking into account that EoE has to be moved around by some means (be it dragged by Slaves, Steeds, Cold Ones, carried by Devoted or simply moved by magic - it's fluff text will indicate that each is unique and they vary in the means of transport used; hope this will encourage conversion creativity. ) 50 mm wide & 100 mm deep seems IMO ok.
Warshrine has 5 attacks ment to represent attacks of crew (Chaos Warriros - 2 A each) and one Chaos Steed (1 A), so even if 'crew' (in brackets, as rule-wise it's all one base and one profile) is more than two Warriors it's still 3 'models' that get to attack.
Corpse Cart gets random amount of attacks, but average is 7 and max is 12, so I don't think that 9 for EoE is unreasonable.
BTW there are more extreme examples of 'Base packing' - 3 Devoted (total 9A) are 60 mm and EoE is 50 mm, while Grail Reliquae is also 50 mm wide I think (or even 40 mm) and has 4 Attack when it's accompanying 'replacement unit' of Pilgirms (that's where I got idea for 'Devotion to the End' from) has 20 mm bases and 1A each.
I understand your sentiments about those banners... Most armies could probably do with a few more. Although since they can't I don't think CoS should have them either - it may hurt a bit, but keeps us in balance.
I've got similar problem with items - we need to remove more than I see candidates for removal, so the last few ones will be a hard choice.
|Author:||Mr_piechee [ Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:45 pm ]|
I hadn't quite twigged that 50*100 was larger than 6 20mm bases. Once again, my bad. I had imagined that the EoE was carried much like a coffin or the Grail Reliquae. The Grail Reliquae is on a base which is 6 20mm bases from what i can see. I think a decision has to be made here - I like the idea of 6 devoted carrying a holy relic of some description, but equally having a model open for lots of interpretation and conversion is a great idea.
While there's no fluff about, rules are more open to interpretation, so this will be partly solved when that's in. I think what happens here is entirely dependant on what people want and what is more fluffy. I know very little about the fluff, so i wouldn't want to make a decision, but I like the idea that it could be pretty much anything.
Now this should show why i prefer the T3 version. If there all devoted carrying it, then they should have the stat's of the devoted, and it would make sense that other devoted could fill there place. T4 would make more sense if its some kind of spawn, or chariot like model.... Tough decision (poll?)
|Author:||Weenth [ Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:14 pm ]|
Hmm... I think that even with fluff of 'relic carried by Devoted' both solutions could be fitted if only the relic is of any considerable size (and it has to, if it requires 6 persons to carry it).
Both versions (as well as their respective inspiring units - Grail Reliquae and Warshrine/Corpse Cart) are in a way chariot-like models (they combine different parts, both alive and inanimate into one profile on one big base). Still, while they need to be survivable, GW designers used two different mechanisms for that on different occasions:
1. 'reinforcement unit' sacrificing itself to keep big model on full wounds - like Battle Pilgrims and Grail Reliquae.
2. T of such combined model higher than that of the 'crew', with bonus T representing hiding behind indestructible/inanimate parts of the model. Chariots are usually T=[T of creature pulling it]+1, while both Warshrine and Corpse Cart have T=[T of crew]+2.
BTW, as one of defining features of CoS is lack of big baddies (and multiattack, T5, 4+ Ward Effigy would work like one) I decided that T4 is max it can have (which fluff-wise can be explained by Effigy itself being more fragile/smaller than a Cart made of bones).
Sorry, got a bit carried away into theorising.
Thanks for elaborating on your point. Currently I think both solutions can be used to represent all fluff-versions considered so far, so it's rather gameplay/abstract rules decision or simply personal preference.
- T3 with 'reinforcement unit', as you've noted, seems more intuitive solution (and keeps in line with fragile elven army theme).
- T4 non-replacable OTOH has advantage of simplicity of rules (and still has acceptable level of Toughness).
- T4 is more in line with 7th ed solutions (Brettonia is 6th ed)
- T3 with 'reinforcement unit' is less used and as such might be more interesting
Poll is always an option of course, but can be a tricky one - not counting my opinion, we have currently one (yours) vote for T3 version and one for T4. I hope that playtesting will give us more merithoric base for decision - either reveal considerable difference in cheese-potential between both versions or show that one of them is a better fit to the theme/playstyle of the rest of the army.
|Author:||Merlin [ Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:21 pm ]|
Here is some feedback I gave directly to Weenth and he asked me to post here as well:
So I played a game on Saturday with the CoS against HE. Here's approximately what I brought:
High Sorceress, Dk Peg, Focus Familiar, MoS
Sorceress, MoS, Effigy (wound-replacing from devoted version), BSB, DS
Sorceress, Dk Steed, Powerstone
Herald, Siren Song
15 Devoted, full cmd
18 Daemonettes, full cmd
2x 5 Cultists
6 Neophyte Knights w/ quickening banner
6 Marauder Horsemen
Something else I can't remember? Maybe not.
This was the HE list:
Lord on Star Dragon (defensively kitted)
2x 10 archers
2x 8 Dragon Princes
My magic was reasonably effective, but not as much as I'd hoped. Used Daemon lore on the SS, but I didn't get Phantasmagoria, so the other ld-based spells in the list that I did get were not nearly as effective. Easily played cat-and-mouse around a forest with the SS against the Dragonmage, making him stupid, killing the mage and finally getting the dragon later. Only lost an RBT to him.
Unmarked sorceress took metal, killed some knights with Spirit of the Forge. Sorceress on Effigy did a bit, but I wasn't happy with the spells I rolled: #1 and #3 (the frenzy one). I did frenzy the Daemonettes once, which helped kill some more swordmasters. I got extra movement on my knights with the effigy and extra attacks on my daemonettes later.
Unfortunately, without phantasmagoria (and facing two dragons) I didn't really know how to kill the star dragon. So he destroyed my knights and most of the devoted by game's end. He ignored the Effigy and just killed devoted with the dragon and I couldn't hurt the lord on top because of his re-rollable 2+ armor save, even with all the attacks I had. So eventually it fled and was run down.
The daemonettes with extra attacks ripped through a unit of swordmasters and a unit of spearmen. The herald also convinced one of the knight units to flee off of the table with Siren song.
End of game: He had only his untouched dragon lord. I had my supreme sorceress, the daemonettes (minus a few models) and herald, one RBT, and most of my cultists.
Perhaps it was just the army I faced, but I'm not a huge fan of devoted. Sure, they can kill hordes of unarmored troops. But they die in droves to shooting and cannot hurt anything with armor. I'm also not sure I would take the Effigy at 160 pts. Seems like too much to me for a support piece that can be easily killed with concentrated shooting (unlike the Warshrine w/ T6).
I love the cultists. Great addition to the list. Give the devoted some screening, shoot people up with handbows when 5 of them are ignored, etc.
It seems in general that the Cult will struggle to hurt heavy armor with anything besides magic (RBTs perhaps excluded).
That's all I can think of right now. I might be able to get in another game this week; we'll see. Hope some of this is useful!
|Author:||Merlin [ Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:33 pm ]|
One thought about the Anointed: it's impossible at the moment for him to be a lvl 2 wizard and use the daemon lore. Could the daemonic gift that gives him another magic lvl be a slaaneshi magic item instead?
|Author:||Weenth [ Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:41 pm ]|
Hmm... this one's done on purpose - you either have Supreme Sorceress with powerful magic or Anointed, powerful fighter with very limited magic (so best he can get is either additional lvl or rare lore, but not both). I think anointed has enough going for him as he is, so I'd rather not enhance his magical options further.
|Author:||Fingol23 [ Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:37 am ]|
Or a Keeper and have both . To be honest I think the Annointed comes in at a weak third for Lord Choice options, however they are cool so I'll be using one anyway. I should be able to post the long awaited playtest feedback later tonight.
|Author:||Weenth [ Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:37 pm ]|
Great, looking forward to that. I'm especially curious about seeing Anointed in action. I've used him twice against WE myself and he did very well (though that was quite time ago, when this version of him was first created - rest of the list has changed a bit since then, though hard to say if and how that affects his efficiency).
As for the Keeper, remember he's a large model that cannot join units and taking him means you'll be quite restricted in what else you take (In 2000 pts you'll need 2 Sorceresses + either EoE or Rod of Summoning, and the former also needs Devoted unit. So you have no character slots left, probably one special slot used up and no daemonic units allowance left... well, one daemonic unit at best if you take both EoE and RoS). So he might be most universal choice by himself, but also the one that limits choice of the rest of the army most.
|Author:||Fingol23 [ Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:24 pm ]|
Ok two games to report on.
The first is a game against Tzeentch Chaos, to be honest not much to comment on due to my opponents dudicious use of eternal gateway. Highlight was the daemonic annointed on dark pegausus who killed a unit of chaos warriors before finishing herself off with his daemonsword.
Second game was a solid victory against Tomb Kings. Pretty much the same list except the annointed had sword of change, armour of darkness and asf. Although he killed everything he touched she simply couldn't reach enough to make her points back.
Unfortunatly in both games the devoted have been destroyed before they reached combat. To be honest for such a fragile unit I do doubt whether they are worth their points cost.
|Author:||Weenth [ Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:08 pm ]|
Thanks for the feedback Fingol. Could you give a bit more detail? I'm especially interested in details of list you've used in both games, as well as lists of your opponents.
|Author:||Dalamar [ Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:33 pm ]|
Dragon Princes are immune to flaming attacks and as such are immune to Spirit of the Forge (which is flaming attack)
Just a little rules correction since I wholeheartedly disagree with Cult of Slaanesh
All Hail Atharti! Death to Chaos Worshippers!
|Author:||Merlin [ Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:06 pm ]|
Oh yeah, good call. Forgot that it was flaming.
|Author:||Kensou [ Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:21 pm ]|
Had a match today against VC with Raising list.
My list was as followed:
Barded Chaos Steed
Tiara of the Dark Fairy Queen
Whip of Subversion
Armour of Damnation
Mark of Slaanesh
Effigy of Excess(T3 Variant)
Pendant of Khaeleth
Mark of Slaanesh
Mark of Slaanesh
Heavy Armour + shield
Banner of the Great Temptator
Mark of Slaanesh
110 10 RxB-Men
60 6 Cultists
Musician + Standard Bearer
Banner of Murder
5 Neophyte Knights
Standard of Slaughter
My opinion for this list, it may change when I've played other lists:
Banner of the Great Temptator: Not really worth it's points. Most armies have an avarage Ld of 9 (it allows general Ld), they generally make it. Also you have to stand in their LOS, which can screw you over in this setup, especially when they have shooting. ATM I think it's worth 75-100 pts. It's really fluffy though so it's going to see a return in my list
Effigy of Excess: This was game breaking (if my knights would've survived><). Giving that blessing is nice, but the real bugger was the all marked units within 12" get stubborn really takes the punch out of almost anything. Just to give an example, I've had stubborn warriors, BSB and Devoted just for investing in this thing and some marks. Unfortunately, I forgot halve of it's rules, so this will need another test (with T4 variant that time). I think it would be better to shorten the stubborn range to 8"-10" and increase the cost a bit.
Tiara of the Dark Fairy Queen: Not overpowered, Not never-take-it -again-sucky item. Rather reliable and not to expensive. I didn't have it backfire yet. No real comment here except: fine as it is.
Number of Slaanesh: This really saved my ass a few times (it was to no avail as my came up 1" short for an overrun in bloodknights and they died). It's easy to get just by tweaking your list. it also give the nice +/- 1 bonus when combined with the effigy which was usefull. I didn't get it to re-roll because of stubbornness.
Eye of the pleasure god: I have some questions about this. Do all models in the unit such as characters get the benifit? Do mounts get the bonus? Do the poisoned attacks count for both ranged and melee attacks? I assumed a yes on the first and last and a no on the second, but can this be confirmed.
All in all, I've really enjoyed this battle, even though the dice were not really in my favor. I hope this helps
|Author:||Weenth [ Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:13 pm ]|
Thanks for the feedback, Kensou. It's been indeed very helpful. Just for the record - what was the result of the battle? From your comments I take it wasn't a win, but was it a draw, minor victory or solid victory for VC?
Good to see you've tried out BotGT. It was intended to work with models own Ld value, I've corrected the description. Also, after quite a lot of maths (checking the chance of controlling characters from most of the books against their PV) I've put it price down to 125 pts. It's a bit on the safe side (as the list is supposed to be 'opponent's permission), although still needs checking against O&G and Skaven - as these would suffer most from it.
As for Effigy, it's aura was actually too good for what it was intended. I priced it same as Stubborn for Khainite units on CoB, ignoring the fact that in CoS you have bigger diverisity of units that can claim this bonus, making it much more useful. So in current version the 'Stubborn aura' is limited to Daemons of Slaanesh (to represent how Effigy helps strengthening their grip on material world) and Devoted (to represent... well, their devotion :p ) I'd rather not increase further the cost of Effigy, as it is already more expensive than Warshrine while being less resilient - hence cutting down the bonus effects.
Confirmed. The first one is the usual rule that when item/rule applies to 'unit' as whole the it affects all parts of it (including mounts & characters) unless noted otherwise.
The second one needs clarification, There will be note that poison is for H-t-H only in the expanded version of the table (coming with updated layout). BTW - just noted another description looks funny... but I hope everyone will deduce correctly what 'Causes Fear & 5+ Ward' is supposed to mean.
|Author:||Kensou [ Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:09 pm ]|
Yes, I got totally steamrolled ><
|Author:||Dalamar [ Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:47 pm ]|
As befits a chaos cultist *cackles*
disclaimer: my comments are in no way directed at discrediting the list as a whole. I believe you're putting good work into it and devoting plenty of time into making it work.
With that said.
Die Slaaneshi scum!
|Author:||Mr_piechee [ Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:09 pm ]|
Good to see your still with us Dalamar, i haven't seen a cult post by you in a little while.
If a character gets a bonus while with a unit, does he/she keep it when they leave? From what you've said above i would say yes, but reading the rules i would assume when they leave the unit they no longer receive the bonus...
|Author:||Weenth [ Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:30 pm ]|
Dalamar, how about focusing that hatred into creating some CoS vs DE scenarios?
Hmm... the short answer is: Effigy's Glory of the Pleasure God works analogically to Warshrine's Glory of the Dark Gods (there are some differences, but these are quite simple, like different range).
Which, after consulting WoC FAQ means:
1. Character leaving the unit looses the blessing.
2. Mounts do not benefit from the blessing (I stand corrected on my previous statement here).
|Author:||Dalamar [ Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:16 pm ]|
Got a thread for that? Already have one in mind
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