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Wheeling a Bretonnian Lance 
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Cold One Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:01 pm
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Does the special Lance formation 'snake' when wheeling?

Example: Let's say a lance 3 wide, and 3 deep wants to wheel. The way most people measure wheeling is to just measure the shortest distance between the outer model and the final position (which, near as I can tell, is not the rules RAW) This would measure about 4", or more like 5" if you do it 'properly' and measure an arc rather than a shortest distance, straight line.

However, the model in the outside back rank is clearly going to move significantly MORE than 4 or 5", however you quibble the measurement of the front rank. If the lance has 3 ranks, a 90 degree turn ends up being 9" or so if measured as a straight line, for the back model.

So, that's the question. Does the back rank swing way out like that, or does the formation 'snake' along, and reform once all ranks are beyond the point where each rank successively wheels? Seems perfectly, crystal clear that they wouldn't. So, do you measure the max movement of the least beneficial model?

Practical example: If I get a squad of harpies to flee from a charge and force an extreme 90 degree wheel out of the bret lance, does that eat up 4 (or 5) inches, or 9 inches of movement?

Even a less severe wheel still has big implications, as the back rank still will travel significantly farther than the front rank.


Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:20 am
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Corsair
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Rules are clear:
When you wheel, the distance made by the unit is the distance made by the model the furthest from the wheeling point, i.e. on the rear.

Detailed analysis in:
How far did you just wheel?!?!?!?!?

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Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:03 am
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Trainee Warrior
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Warhammer rulebook, page 12:

"When it wheels, the entire unit counts as having moved as far as the outside model."

Page 13, diagram caption:

"To wheel, one corner of the unit is moved forward while leaving the opposite corner stationary to act as a pivot."

The diagram also shows movement starting from the outside model on the corner of the front rank farthest from the opposite front corner, which is being used as the pivot.


Warhammer Armies: Bretonnia, page 40, The Lance Formation:

"For movement, it is treated like any other unit."


Nothing in the current Bretonnia FAQ about it.


Seems clear to me. The whole unit counts as having moved whatever distance the outside front model (the one you measured the wheel from) has moved.

In your practical example, that's four (or five) inches.



ETA: hang on. Warhammer FAQ Part 2 (Feb 2009), page 1:

"Are models executing a Change Formation manoeuvre (or wheeling...) allowed to move more than twice their movement rate?"

"This is a bit of a muddy issue...

Units can move normally at double their Movement value, and this represents the creatures' running speed, which is as fast as they can possibly move (except with the aid of magic, flying and so on).

Following this principle, players trying to exploit any manoeuvre or other rule to try and move models more than double their Movement value are not playing the game in the spirit it is meant to be played and need to be publicly chastised."


So, according to the rules as written, the Knights can accidentally move more than 14". If the player is trying to do it, it is permitted, but you can put them in the stocks and throw fruit at them. Seems appropriately Bretonnian, as public chastisings go.


Last edited by Kaptain von on Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:08 am
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Corsair
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Kaptain Von, please, verify your quote.
In my book, it is not written the outside model, but the model the farthest from the pivot (I translate back from French so the wording may be slightly different in English, but I'm confident that both translations are accurate).
Nowhere it says that the model mentioned should be in the front of the unit.

For a wide unit (5x2 infantry), it hardly makes a significant difference and people have the habit of taking the front unit.
However, for long unit (congo lines, or Bret's lance), the difference is very significant and the rule should be applied, taking the furthest model, i.e. in the rear.

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Last edited by Calisson on Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:39 am, edited 3 times in total.



Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:29 am
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Trainee Warrior
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The English version says "outside model." I quoted word for word, mark for mark. I actually like the French version more (since it sidesteps the whole issue rather neatly), but I'm working with what GW have given me here.

However, you're right that the text isn't clear on whether you pivot (and therefore measure) from the front or back corners, so presumably you can use one rear corner as the pivot and measure from the other one.


Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:32 am
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Oh does it?
Sorry then. Edited my previous entry accordingly.
Clearer in the French version.

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Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:34 am
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That's cool. And yes, the French version's better. Mind you, either's better than that "well, they CAN, but they really shouldn't" answer in that ridiculous FAQ. It's funny, but it's not helpful.

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Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:38 am
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Its outside model of the front rank. This is why the goblin cheat of placing a unit in a single model wide column across the front of your army and then wheeling it 90 degrees toward your table edge, then releasing fanatics at the now in range enemy line is still technically legal.

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Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:57 pm
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As long as the distance from the starting point, to the ending point of the rearmost goblin is within 8"

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Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:41 pm
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Yes by the rulebook FAQ part 2, prior to that, it was 'RAW'llowed.


Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:47 pm
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I don't believe the FAQ ruling disallows it. It condemns deliberate attempts to get extra movement out of it, but what if it's an accident of following the rules as written (say, by wheeling a lance)?

I think it's a terrible soft ruling, but it's what we've been given.

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Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:16 pm
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