Characters and conga lines

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Pjeos
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Characters and conga lines

Post by Pjeos »

Hi there,

This is the context:

I'm facing a WoC player, he fields a unit of 20 Tzeench Chosens w/ shields, blessed by 2 Altars (for a total of 3 blessings).

I can't hope to take it down with any of my units so i came up with the following...

I move my DP/PoK Master into my 20 man BG. I then reform then into a conga line, 2 man wide, and the DP/PoK Master moves to the front rank.


So, the doubt is:

Is it right for me to place the Master in the front rank?. The idea is to have the enemy hit the Master, who absorbs the hits. I then take a Stubborn L test for loosing combat, OK. So i can engage with his superuber unit for the whole game and effectively tarpit it.

But it seems a very "dirty" tactic, rule abusing and all that, what makes me think that i may be missing something.

What do you think?
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Post by Valkyre »

you sure can do this, but why would you take 20 BG then?

i mean, a DP master can do with just 5 or 6 BG for the stubborn tests as well (actually, 1 would be enough even, but you cannot deploy just one of them).

do keep in mind those BG are not allowed any command at all for this to work.

problems you will get into is that he will simply bless other units when those chosen are tarpitted, and you will all in all not gain much benefit as i see it.
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Post by Meteor »

And I was spending all last night juggling between a stubborn unkillable lord on pegasus, forgoing Lv4 caster, or an unkillable master on pegasus but subject to break tests on modified leadership. Thanks for sharing!
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Post by Dalamar »

Or you could get CoC/PoK/AoD Dreadlord with a greatweapon in there and you don't need Blackguard.
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Post by Thanee »

Conga lines are the single biggest rules abuse in the game. Right after outright cheating. ;)

You should not rely on them ever.

A Dreadlord with Crown of Command added into the mix can do the same.

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Post by Pjeos »

Hi there,

Problem is that i usually play 2500 games and i have to choose between Lvl 4 and Dreadlord.

So i came up with that combo: Lvl4, PoK Master and conga line BG. I am using BG anyway so, maybe i could add the Master for the same effect as a Stubborn Dreadlord.

Otherwise i would have to go for Lvl 2 Sorceress and that seems just too weak magic to me. Also, Lvl 4 + Master is cheaper than Dreadlord + 2 Lvl 2...so i was thinking about that.

So i assume it is right (at least, ruleswise) to place the Master in the front rank?, command group would go in second and following ranks then?.
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Post by Mr. anderson »

Problem is that i usually play 2500 games and i have to choose between Lvl 4 and Dreadlord.


Why?

On the topic of conga lines, I completely agree with Thanee, except I think they are so close to cheating that in fact they are cheating. It's a cheap tactic, and your opponent won't enjoy playing against you.

And no, the command group goes first, then characters. So what you would need is a unit that contains either no command or only one model of the command group. What you will notice, however, is that no one has answered this question for a good rason - this style of play is cheap, and we don't like to support it.

There are several other ways of beating the unit you mentioned, and I'm sure that if you were to post a thread in the tactics forum outlining your dilemma in a little more detail, there would be many who would be more than willing to help you out with proper tactics, not rule abuse.
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Pjeos
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Post by Pjeos »

Mr. Anderson wrote:
Problem is that i usually play 2500 games and i have to choose between Lvl 4 and Dreadlord.


Why?

On the topic of conga lines, I completely agree with Thanee, except I think they are so close to cheating that in fact they are cheating. It's a cheap tactic, and your opponent won't enjoy playing against you.

And no, the command group goes first, then characters. So what you would need is a unit that contains either no command or only one model of the command group. What you will notice, however, is that no one has answered this question for a good rason - this style of play is cheap, and we don't like to support it.

There are several other ways of beating the unit you mentioned, and I'm sure that if you were to post a thread in the tactics forum outlining your dilemma in a little more detail, there would be many who would be more than willing to help you out with proper tactics, not rule abuse.


Hi there,

First of all, i am not looking for approval to use conga lines. I'm just asking wether it is right for the Master to go in the front rank of a conga line.

Also, as i said, at 2500 there is very little room for 2 Lords fully equiped, and i just don't like paying for low geared characters.

On the other hand, i'm also not having any dilema with 20 man Tzeench Chosen units nor was i looking for advice on how to beat them, that was just an example.

Command group has preference over characters?, OK. So no conga line with PoK Master in the front rank, that's all there is to it. I only posted an example to make it easier to understand the nature of the question.

Also, the fact that you consider something rule abusing, cheap, cheese and so on doesn't mean it is actually that rule abusing, cheap, et...but, oh well, that's another topic.

As is see it, you haven't understood the initial intention of the thread. Forget about cheap tactis and all that stuff. It's not about that.

Question is: is it correctly played if i place the Master in the front?

Many would think: It is not but...what for?

I answered that in advance by setting an example: to tarpit superuber units.


Then, someone suggested that i should take a Stubborn Dreadlord for the same effect. That way i would also avoid rules discussion.

In response, i explained that i'm not interested in Dreadlords for stubborn characters as they are not compatible with Lvl4 in 2500 points game and alternative build containing Dreadlords are overpriced.

That was already off topic but, oh well, i just wanted to make clear that my question was focused on that particular use of Master/BG conga line. It has already been answered that this particular use of them is not allowed by the BRB so that's it.

I see your point but i must correct this now or i will end up regarded as a cheese, WAAC player, which i'm not at all and i must say i find your post, Mr Anderson, pretty offensive as it took a wrong interpretation of the topic and went over the top calling it cheese, cheating, etc.

See ya.

EDIT:

Notice this in the initial post:
But it seems a very "dirty" tactic, rule abusing and all that, what makes me think that i may be missing something.
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Post by Masamune »

I think 2500 is more than ample to get in both a dreadlord and a level 4. Even putting 1 on a dark pegasus still lets you take around 160 points of magic items, that's hardly a bare bones setup or low gear as you claim.

If you are just planning to use the character to tarpit I might recommend a cold one over the pegasus. The scaly skin will keep him alive longer and he should be able to get into combat in turn 2 in most cases anyways. If you are not using the mobility of flight I see no reason to spend the extra points for the pegasus. For example:

Lords (534/625)
Dreadlord Heavy Armour, Shield, Cold One, Pendant of Khaeleth, Dragonhelm, Sword of Might, Crown of Command (274)
Supreme Sorceress Level 4 (260)

That still leaves up to 91 points of magic items on the level 4 for whatever setup you like. One of my favourites is dagger and talisman of preservation which rocks in at 70. Again, hardly "low gear".

In terms of the conga line formation I think that's already been answered as to when he would be moved to the front rank and the ethics behind it. if it were me I just wouldn't do it as, while legal in RAW, it's not in the spirit of the game.
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Post by Pjeos »

@Masamune:

Sigh, i just failed to explain myself properly once more.

Of course you can pay for 2 fully equiped Lords at 2500 points, i already knew, i can count points too >.<.

The thing is that i don't usually pay for character first. IMHO, they are there to boost already solid lists so i go for troops first, based on my game experience. When i think the list is ok, i get some characters to boost it, counter weaknesses, etc.

For me, that usually means that at 2500 points there is only room for a Lord, a BSB and a warmachine/support units hunter. And the cheaper they are, the better. For the same points cost, including a Dreadlord would involve fielding low geared characters.

So that's what i meant. I just didn't want to emphasize that, it is just personal preference based on my particular case. And this is going extremely off topic, which is what i wanted to avoid :/
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Post by Calisson »

PjEOs

1. The technical answer to your question is that the command group must go in the front of the unit, so if you have any musician, pennant or champion, you cannot do what you plan.

2. The tactical answer to your question was provided as well, offering you alternatives.

3. The ethical answer to your question is another matter, and is off topic here.
I'll start a new thread about that.
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Post by Sulla »

Congalines are lazy gaming. Any army can do it. Many can do it with a character that's hard to kill, or in the case of undead, with a dirt cheap unkit of reraisable junk. If you don't want to end up facing a horde of enemy congalines, I wouldn't resort to it myself. It may look like a quick way to power but really it's just another step in the arms race.

I would always advise real tactics over cheap rules expoits.
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Post by Ichiyo1821 »

sulla wrote:
I would always advise real tactics over cheap rules expoits.



I agree..
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Post by Rkhatzar »

Dreadlord with Crown is as much cheating as conga line.

I love 100 strong stubborn units from one edge to the other.
Congas aren't very realistic, but most of WFB isn't. If someone is using pigeon bombs, any rule abuse is as ridiculous as that.
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Post by xFallenx »

Rkhatzar wrote:..... If someone is using pigeon bombs, any rule abuse is as ridiculous as that.

What are pigeon bombs? Sounds like a crafty empire maneuver!
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Pjeos
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Post by Pjeos »

Rkhatzar said:
..... If someone is using pigeon bombs, any rule abuse is as ridiculous as that.



What are pigeon bombs? Sounds like a crafty empire maneuver!


They're just that XD
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Post by Calisson »

I love my pigeons! (I play Empire, too).
When they work, they're amazing: I had once one working 6 times in a game => odds are 0.14%, or once every 729 games! :shock:
When they backfire, they're tasty anyway. :P
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Post by Layne »

PjEOs ;

You asked the people what they think. Now you know. This is the internet, you mustn't take it too seriously. This thread has indeed gone off topic, and I rather doubt it will come back ; so I will lock it.

If anyone disagrees, let that person PM me.
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