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Duplicating spells via Tome of Furion 
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Noble
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Tome of Furion wording: (AB p.63)
Quote:
When the bearer of the Tome of Furion generates spells from the Lore of Dark Magic, she can choose one spell - the rest must be generated following the normal rules.


Spell generation: (BRB p.490)
Quote:
Ordinarily each spell can only be known once in the same army. The only exceptions are where a spell is not generated randomly, such as:
If a model has no choice over which spells it knows, either because it is fixed by the models rules, or because it has "bought" a specific spell as part of army selection.
If the army book or spell lore states that a model can exchange another spell for the spell in question.

Otherwise .....


This means that since one spell is chosen and not "generated randomly" it can be known multiple times (similarly to the old seerstaff from HEs).

Technically, this means we can have a Lv2 sorceress with Tome of Furion and the same spell twice.
For instance:
You choose spell #2 Word of Pain, and then roll a single die and get a 2 for Word of Pain, again. Of course you can choose to swap the 2nd spell for a signature spell, if you want.

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Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:20 pm
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Dragon Lord
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Not correct as the wizard can know a spell only once, but another wizard could know the same spell thanks to the Tome of Furion.

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Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:39 pm
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Noble
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So you could have a Supreme Sorceress getting lets just say Word of Pain.
Then the Level 2 could also select Word of Pain because of Tome of Furion?

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Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:58 pm
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Noble
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Dalamar wrote:
Not correct as the wizard can know a spell only once, but another wizard could know the same spell thanks to the Tome of Furion.

Dalamar you might have seen something that i have not, please refer me to the place in BRB/FAQ where that statement is made.

It cannot be found on page 490 in BRB.
p.490 instead states as i quoted above. That you can indeed have multiples of the same spell, if it is NOT generated randomly.

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Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:52 pm
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Dragon Lord
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I don't have a rule reference, it just seems reasonable.

For example if you were to know two of the same RiP spell, you wouldn't be able to cast them both, because casting the same RiP spell again makes the first one go away.

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Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:56 pm
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Noble
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Scyloc wrote:
Tome of Furion wording: (AB p.63)
Quote:
When the bearer of the Tome of Furion generates spells from the Lore of Dark Magic, she can choose one spell - the rest must be generated following the normal rules.


Spell generation: (BRB p.490)
Quote:
Ordinarily each spell can only be known once in the same army. The only exceptions are where a spell is not generated randomly, such as:
If a model has no choice over which spells it knows, either because it is fixed by the models rules, or because it has "bought" a specific spell as part of army selection.
If the army book or spell lore states that a model can exchange another spell for the spell in question.

Otherwise, if you roll a spell twice (whether for the same wizard or for a different wizard in the army) you must normally replace the duplicate spell with another of your choice from the same lore.
Added the rest of the paragraph.

There is nothing that prevents the same spell twice on a wizard in the rules.

Otherwise is my highlight seperates the rules and describes what happens, if the spell IS generated randomly, IE you cannot have a duplicate and get to choose.
Note that they make no disdinction between "the same wizard or for a different wizard in the army".

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Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:59 pm
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Corsair
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Scyloc wrote:
There is nothing that prevents the same spell twice on a wizard in the rules.

After a careful read of Tom of Furion and BRB p.490, I must concur with Scyloc.
See detailed argument here: Tome of Furion, are we doing it wrong?

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Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:32 am
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Malekith's Best Friend

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I can't really see why duplication would be allowed. Under spell selection:

Code:
Ordinarily, each spell can only be known once in the same army, the only exceptions are where a spell is not generated randomly, such as:
- If a model has no choice over which spell(s) it knows, ...
- If the army book or spell lore clearly states that a model can exchange another spell for the spell in question.


Even though you might emphasise the "not generated randomly", I think the intent is clear that duplication can only occur if you have no choice at the time of spell generation, e.g. because the spell was bought as a part of army selection (as in the case of the Necromancer).

Edit: Also, if you are able to chose your spell then you'd have to do that when building your army list, so you cannot change spells between games.


Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:01 am
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Setomidor wrote:
I can't really see why duplication would be allowed. Under spell selection:

Code:
Ordinarily, each spell can only be known once in the same army, the only exceptions are where a spell is not generated randomly, such as:
- If a model has no choice over which spell(s) it knows, ...
- If the army book or spell lore clearly states that a model can exchange another spell for the spell in question.


Even though you might emphasise the "not generated randomly", I think the intent is clear that duplication can only occur if you have no choice at the time of spell generation, e.g. because the spell was bought as a part of army selection (as in the case of the Necromancer).

Edit: Also, if you are able to chose your spell then you'd have to do that when building your army list, so you cannot change spells between games.



but the rulebook only gives two examples. there can be more scenarios where you dont randomize, such as now with tome.

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Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:53 am
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Dark Rider

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I don´t agree with this interpretation of the rules. Yes, the spell is not generated randomly and therefore you can have it twice in your ARMY. When the wizard rolls the same spell I´d treat it as when rolling a double for spell generation, and pick the second one yourself. I don´t think your opponent would disagree.


Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:45 am
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Another RAW/RAI thingy imho.

I, too, think that there is no reason a single sorc couldn't have the same spell twice, at least I couldn't find anything in the rules that prevent it, but the paragraph that disallows the same spell to be rolled twice makes pretty clear that you are no supposed to have the same spell twice on the same caster. You're welcome to disagree here, but that's the thing with RAI-stuff. The AB is obviously newer than the BRB and it's not uncommon that GW doesn't think of its own rulings in the BRB and produces such problems, anyway.

I disagree btw about the following statement: "Also, if you are able to chose your spell then you'd have to do that when building your army list, so you cannot change spells between games."

The Tome cites "When the bearer of the Tome of Furion generates spells [...]" - "when" being a solely temporal condition, meaning you choose the spell as soon as you are actually generating your spells, which happens on a game to game base. They could have used "if", if they intended it to be it part of the army building itself.


Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:12 am
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Dark Rider

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There is no rule against the same wizard having the same spell twice, but there are rules preventing that situation could occur when generating spells the normal way.

However, there is a rule saying the same wizard can´t cast the same spell twice in the same magic phase, even if we could roll the same spell twice, there wouldn´t be any point to it.


Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:55 pm
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Highborn
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Forumite wrote:
There is no rule against the same wizard having the same spell twice, but there are rules preventing that situation could occur when generating spells the normal way.

However, there is a rule saying the same wizard can´t cast the same spell twice in the same magic phase, even if we could roll the same spell twice, there wouldn´t be any point to it.


They are technically not the same spell though, they are two seperate identical spells :), slight difference.

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Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:02 pm
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Noble
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Yes.

But the whole item

Choose one spell, roll random for rest, is also a first in warhammer, and it opens up a whole new can of worms.
Technically, nothing prevented user of the old HE seerstaff to chose the same spell more than once, but noone ever did, even though by RAW it would be permissable.

It would be reasonable to do the same with our item. IE choose one roll for rest. The same sorc cannot have the spell twice, but other wizards in army could get it the 2nd time.
There is nothing RAW that supports that, but it makes sense.

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Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:31 pm
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