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Hatred: High Elves 
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Cold One Knight
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Does this refer to every model in Army Book High Elves? Or just High Elves, and if so, what is classified as High Elves?

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Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:08 pm
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Highborn
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HERO wrote:
Does this refer to every model in Army Book High Elves? Or just High Elves, and if so, what is classified as High Elves?


It is actually not defined in the DE Armybook.

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Total: 16/21/1
vs. Demons: 0/2/0
vs. Dwarfs: 1/2/0
vs. Empire: 2/4/0
vs. High Elves: 0/4/0
vs. Lizardmen: 3/0/0
vs. Orcs & Goblins: 3/0/1
vs. Ogres: 1/0/0
vs. Skaven: 4/4/0
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vs. Warriors of Chaos: 0/3/0
vs. Wood Elves: 2/1/0


Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:56 pm
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Cold One Knight
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The BRB pg.71 mentions Hatred:
"...a model will only Hate a specific foe (rather than everyone). Where this is the case, the type of foe wlil be expressed in the special rule, for example Hatred (Dwarfs)."

Because the wording is specific foe, I'm thinking it applies to everyone in the army book.

That's how we're playing at it at the club right now.

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Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:55 am
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Dragon Lord
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Since by the rules, you can't actually tell what's a high elf and what's not, we have to assume that everything in the Armies: High Elves book is a high elf even if it looks more like a bird.

Thus re-rolls against everything from the book is the only sensible choice.

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Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:16 am
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Contrary to what Dalamar says, it is easy to tell who is an elf and what is not in the HE book: elves have Value of Ages, non-elf units lack that.
Non-elf units from HE book are, exhaustively:
- dragons (all galaxies)
- griffons
- eagles
- phoenixes (BBQ or sherbet).

What do rules say?
BRB p.71 does not mention an army book, it does not mention a "race", but a "type" of foe.

Can we find other examples or counter-examples?
DE AB p.48, shrine bestows +1Ld to "DE AB" units.
HE AB p.36, Value of Ages works as soon as a single model from "DE AB" is on the battlefield.
O&G AB p.33, "Elves", no matter who they are, inspire fear to goblins.

In these examples, we find out that:
- when a whole AB is meant, a whole AB is mentioned.
- a special rule may well involve specifically races, rather than army book units.

All together, I find that we are not forced to claim hatred vs the whole HE AB.
It could be clarified, for the sake of simplicity, that the whole HE AB is to be considered for hatred. Better do that before the battle starts.
Or it could be confirmed that only "ethnic" HE (as indicated by their "ethnic" rule) are to be hated.

My own troops would hate a HE lord, but not the dragon he rides.

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Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:23 am
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Then it would be much clearer to say hate (models with valor of ages).
Does valor of ages specify that the rule applies only to high elves?

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Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:24 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
Then it would be much clearer to say hate (models with valor of ages).
Does valor of ages specify that the rule applies only to high elves?

No, the rule applies to models having that entry. Same for Valor of Ages.

It happens that in the HE book, you could easily sort out two categories:
- any infantry, cavalry, chariot & warmachine have all three rules (ASF, Valor of Ages, Martial prowess); models (or part of) are humanoids;
- any monster or monstrous beast have none or the three rules (ASF, Valor of Ages, Martial prowess); models are not humanoids.
There's nothing else.

Now, if you want to argue that a monster having none of the HE army-wide rules and looking nothing like an elf is a High Elf, that's your choice - not mine.

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Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:24 pm
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Highborn
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Calisson wrote:
Dalamar wrote:
Then it would be much clearer to say hate (models with valor of ages).
Does valor of ages specify that the rule applies only to high elves?

No, the rule applies to models having that entry. Same for Valor of Ages.

It happens that in the HE book, you could easily sort out two categories:
- any infantry, cavalry, chariot & warmachine have all three rules (ASF, Valor of Ages, Martial prowess); models (or part of) are humanoids;
- any monster or monstrous beast have none or the three rules (ASF, Valor of Ages, Martial prowess); models are not humanoids.
There's nothing else.

Now, if you want to argue that a monster having none of the HE army-wide rules and looking nothing like an elf is a High Elf, that's your choice - not mine.


I feel its get a tad weird with just the rules of hatred(High Elves) -or- hatred(Wood Elves) as soon as these two rules people start to argue that it only applies to elves and certain units are exempt.

But if we look at it from another angle how would you handle a rule that only said hatred(Brettonia) or hatred(The Empire) for example, the main issue with the hatred rules against particular elf factions is that no-one can agree on if you meant actual elves or a faction.

With other books this issue isn't a problem, but when your faction shares name with a specific type of model in your army no-one seems to be able to agree with what GW meant. Though I do not blame people for argueing either way due to GWs track record of defining things . . . .

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vs. Empire: 2/4/0
vs. High Elves: 0/4/0
vs. Lizardmen: 3/0/0
vs. Orcs & Goblins: 3/0/1
vs. Ogres: 1/0/0
vs. Skaven: 4/4/0
vs. Tomb Kings: 0/1/0
vs. Warriors of Chaos: 0/3/0
vs. Wood Elves: 2/1/0


Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:38 pm
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for all non elves in the book have Ini 5 or less this question is obsolete... but I would say it reffers too all units in "Armies: High Elves" other books (even 40k) define it like this

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Also, Dark Elf answer to Phoenix Guard are Crossbowmen. lots and lots of crossbowmen ;)


Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:51 pm
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Cold One Knight
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Schattenklinge wrote:
for all non elves in the book have Ini 5 or less this question is obsolete... but I would say it reffers too all units in "Armies: High Elves" other books (even 40k) define it like this


Right.

Right now, I'm not sure if it's referring to the Faction or the Race.

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Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:11 pm
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HERO wrote:
Schattenklinge wrote:
for all non elves in the book have Ini 5 or less this question is obsolete... but I would say it reffers too all units in "Armies: High Elves" other books (even 40k) define it like this


Right.

Right now, I'm not sure if it's referring to the Faction or the Race.


Only monster it matter against in the HE list is the Forst Phoenix no, or do the dragons have high I as well?

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Stats since I started playing again in 2013
W/L/D
Total: 16/21/1
vs. Demons: 0/2/0
vs. Dwarfs: 1/2/0
vs. Empire: 2/4/0
vs. High Elves: 0/4/0
vs. Lizardmen: 3/0/0
vs. Orcs & Goblins: 3/0/1
vs. Ogres: 1/0/0
vs. Skaven: 4/4/0
vs. Tomb Kings: 0/1/0
vs. Warriors of Chaos: 0/3/0
vs. Wood Elves: 2/1/0


Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:21 pm
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dragons have lower Ini, but I forgot DE dragons hate High Elves too...

I checked it in the HE Book... there the shadow warriors also just hate Dark Elves (no definition what is a Dark Elf)

but in the case of "Valor of Ages" it refers to the book/faction "Armies: Dark Elves"

Goblins also "Fear Elves" without any definition what is meant by elves, and Hate Dwarfs without definition...

so I would say RAW only Dark/High Elves (both cases), but I think that it was intended on faction base
for warhammer tries to simplyfie rules (most times),

just keep it simpel in this case for such a rules normaly applies for an entire faction...
(as it was old eternal hatred, and still valor of ages does)

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Also, Dark Elf answer to Phoenix Guard are Crossbowmen. lots and lots of crossbowmen ;)


Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:10 pm
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New information has entered the fray:
Designer's Note:
Some rules in this book provide Preferred Enemy or Hatred (Space Marines). The category "Space Marines" comprises all units taken from the following codexes: Space Marines, Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves.

Pg. 28 CSM

This seems crystal clear to me what the intent is.

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Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:50 pm
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Lord of Khorne
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A dragon isn't a dark elf ;). If it's an elf from the Dark Elf book, or an elf from the High Elf book (tall, skinny, prone to being hit), those are the elves. A dragon/hydra/phoenix clearly isn't an elf of any variation.

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Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:14 pm
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Cold One Knight
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Mr. Phil Kelly disagrees in my above example.

If the Senior Designer of several WHFB and 40K books specifically clarifies what Hatred X means, I'm going with his interpretation.

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Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:38 pm
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So if we take a hard line interpretation and say that these rules are based on faction not visual race distinctions then does that logically mean that Goblins don't fear any real game models since there is no faction simply named Elves?


Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:11 am
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Dragon Lord
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It's not exactly the best example though.

All units in those codices... are Space Marines.

It would've been a good example if there was Hatred (Tau) and that included all units from the Tau Codex (as Tau use auxiliaries of other species)

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Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:20 am
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Cold One Knight
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Dalamar wrote:
It's not exactly the best example though.

All units in those codices... are Space Marines.

It would've been a good example if there was Hatred (Tau) and that included all units from the Tau Codex (as Tau use auxiliaries of other species)


Space Wolves uses Fenrisan wolves, and they're clearly Wolves, not Space Marines. Next.

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Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:49 am
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No faction called Elves. No definition for what an Elf is but we still know that Goblins fear Elves. I assume no one makes goblins test for fear on a High Elf Great Eagle. So I think it doesn't take that much of a stretch to expand that reasoning and apply it here. So I say we do know what a High Elf is in the faction High Elves despite that there is no definition outright stated for you. I think HERO has what could be strong proof for the opposite but he is pulling that ruling from 40k not Fantasy. While the games are undeniably related, he might as well pull rules from Lord of the Rings to make a point. It, unfortunately, has about as much bearing to the final answer. But in my opinion let your opponent decide because it shouldn't make that much of a difference in how you play and if it does... well, I don't know what to tell you. HAHA.


Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:12 am
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The most sportsman approach is to exclude monsters & eagles from our hatred when we are playing DE, :)
and to propose to include them when we are playing HE. :x

Oh, wait... :?
<reading fluff 1B p.7, last sentence of 3rd paragraph - and also, p.59, second paragraph>
... er, belay my last, aren't DE supposed to be treacherous and not to respect the given word? :twisted:

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Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:51 am
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I would presume that the intent of the hatred rule is that it applies to the "race", not the "faction." If you look at it from a fluff point of view, the Dark Elves hate the High Elves because they fought a civil war against them and lost. They didn't fight a war against dragons, eagles or Pheonixes - even if they were part of the High Elves forces. The hatred stems from the perceived betrayal so I would interpret that as only models of the High Elf race, not faction.

I think the Goblin analogy supports that. The intent of the rule in that case is that Goblins fear Elves of all types (High, Dark and Wood); but they aren't afraid of Eagles, or Dryads (unless Dryads happen to have the Fear rule. I'm not familiar with the Wood Elf Army :oops: ). It appears to me that GW didn't specify High Elves as a race or faction because it wasn't necessary. Hatred in the context of the game is meant to refer to a racial type.

The CSM example also supports this. They had to list all of the other chapters because they have separate codices. Chaos doesn't just hate models from Codex: Space Marines, or the faction; they hate all Space Marines including those from other codices, which implies that they hate Space Marines as a race, not a faction. In fact it's a good thing GW added that clarification in that case, because if you wanted to be a stickler you could say that CSMs should hate other CSMs since they are technically Space Marines too.


Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:58 am
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There is no rule based definition of what an elf is. There is a definition of what the High Elves book is.
But... my club seems to play the more natural interpretation. If it's an elf, you hate it. If it's his or her pet, you don't. And I don't object :)

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Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:16 am
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Daeron wrote:
There is no rule based definition of what an elf is. There is a definition of what the High Elves book is.
But... my club seems to play the more natural interpretation. If it's an elf, you hate it. If it's his or her pet, you don't. And I don't object :)


Funny thing is that there is an ongoing discussion of this over at ulthuan.net as well, and while there are diffrent opinions most of them seem to agree on that it means "High Elves: faction" rather than "Hiigh Elves: elf"

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My Hobby Thread

Stats since I started playing again in 2013
W/L/D
Total: 16/21/1
vs. Demons: 0/2/0
vs. Dwarfs: 1/2/0
vs. Empire: 2/4/0
vs. High Elves: 0/4/0
vs. Lizardmen: 3/0/0
vs. Orcs & Goblins: 3/0/1
vs. Ogres: 1/0/0
vs. Skaven: 4/4/0
vs. Tomb Kings: 0/1/0
vs. Warriors of Chaos: 0/3/0
vs. Wood Elves: 2/1/0


Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:30 am
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This is a difficult one... I too thought that it wouldn't be any rerolls against monsters and those who are not actually elven models.

Then again, why would the dark elves NOT have hatred against these if you think of how it would be on the battlefield? I'd think they would hate anything that was part of the High Elf force.

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Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:40 am
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Dragon Lord
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In the end it won't matter most of the time. Their monsters need to pay extra for asf so we'll get reroll against them more often than not.

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8th Edition army book W/D/L:
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Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:49 pm
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