Hatred: High Elves

[Schattenklinge]

I don't know if anyone is still thinking about this question, but I discussed that matter with a friend and we came to the conclusion that "hatred X" affects the entire "faction/book X"

Why? Well... there is no definition what is a High Elf, a Dwarf or a Human... but there is something pretty close to a definition: the Bestarium.

The Bestarium lists all units known when the rulebook was released. So specific new units do not apear and the some units have other names(*)

*Some units were replaced or renamed like DE warriors who are now two units with diffrent names (thougt they changed not much)
*some translations changed like engl "Prince" became "Fürst" in german, prior it was translated as "Prinz" (btw I think "Fürst" is closer to the englisch meaning, but that is another story )

The List "High Elves" includes all known mosters who were part of the old armybook (dragons, eagles) but of cause no phoenix but also no of the newer elves (High Loremaster of Hoeth)


So I would say...
- RAW would mean in this case only units listed in the Bestarium with exact
that name are High Elves, Dwarfs or Humans.

- RAI would mean all units in the Dark Elves, High Elves or whatever book are meant to count as Dark Elves, High Elves or whatever (WH40k made it official)

if you prefer RAW, we can start a new discussion about champions (which are not listet, but mentioned that they are not listet )

if you prefer RAI... then you share my opinion

[Calisson]

RAW is not clear enough, as you said, a HE is not defined exhaustively.
There are 2 solutions:
- hatred against all entries in HE book
- hatred against all entries in HE book that are elves + mercenary units that are HE (in case you play SoM)

How do you tell which units in the HE book are elves?
The difference is not difficult to tell:
- any infantry, cavalry, chariot & warmachine has all the three "racial" rules (ASF, Valor of Ages, Martial prowess) and models (or part of) are humanoids;
- any monster or monstrous beast has none of the three "racial" rules (ASF, Valor of Ages, Martial prowess) and models are not elves.
Exhaustively, the units/mounts in discussion are: dragons, griffons, eagles, phoenixes.
It is very easy to tell who is who, you need only to have graduated from kindergarten with basic reading proficiency.

[Schattenklinge]

of course I agree with the VoA/ASF/MP matter, but HE chariot have no MP (at least in my copy of the book), are they no elves according to your definition? and HE can upgrade some "non elves" with ASF, does this mean they are High elves with that upgrade?

the voice of reason in my head says that all 3 chariot types are (at least partial) elves aswell as characters mounted on eagels are too - and Dragons, unmounted eagels, griffons, a.s.o. are not... but if there was a Prince on the Dragon, would my executioners care that the dragon is no Elf?
when does it clearly say that it is hatred against "ethnic" high elves and not the faction?

we could turn arround forever around that spot - and I totaly agree with your recommendations to clarify at the start of a game.


my point of view remains: there is no RAW definition that clarifies what is a Elf/Dwarf/Dragon/Mouse/little boy named Kevin...
but the closest thing I found was the Bestarium which lists "High Elves" and also included dragons, griffons and eagels (imho its applies more than the VoA/ASF/MP definition - of which I think it's a good approach).

EDIT:

Exhaustively, the units/mounts in discussion are: dragons, griffons, eagles, phoenixes.
It is very easy to tell who is who, you need only to have graduated from kindergarten with basic reading proficiency.

Maybe my english got a bit rusty, but I think that it was clear that I aimed for the Dragon/Phoenix question in first place, I think the classification of elve and non-elve is a coin with two sides

[Calisson]

all 3 chariot types are (at least partial) elves
aswell as characters mounted on eagels are too -
and Dragons, unmounted eagels, griffons, a.s.o. are not...
but if there was a Prince on the Dragon, would my executioners care that the dragon is no Elf?

This is not an issue.
When fighting a chariot, you don't make a difference between mount and rider, you fight the whole thing - classified as a HE, as there is HE racial traits and there is a model looking like an elf.
When fighting a character riding an eagle - or a horse, by the way - same issue, you fight the whole thing, that's an elf, there are the racial traits and there is a model looking like an elf.

When fighting a character on a dragon, you do individualize whether you fight the character or the dragon. It's easy to tell the difference. The character is an elf, the dragon is not.

when does it clearly say that it is hatred against "ethnic" high elves and not the faction?

This is the only issue.
I don't see any RAW telling either one, so it is up to the gamers to tell.
There is no strong position, either one can be argued for.

I just find hard to swallow arguments telling that it is difficult to sort out in the HE book who is an elf and who is not.
If a goblin is able to tell what is an elf that it fears (i.e. not a griffon), I believe we could be as smart as a goblin and tell it as well.

[Dalamar]

There is one issue with defining Hatred (High Elves) as encompassing everything in the Warhammer Armies: High Elves book
The fact that Dwarfs hate (Greenskins) and there is no Warhammer Armies: Greenskins book

I don't see the issue though.
Nobody ever buys the ASF upgrade for their eagles (they need to stay cheap) and rarely for the griffon. If the monster doesn't have ASF, hatred is redundant since you re-roll anyway.

[Schattenklinge]

so it is up to the gamers to tell.

thats what I also think too, I just wanted to point on the Bestarium what could give a hint to define what is meant by "High Elf" or "Dwarf" (and so on) and I am not talking about the skiny long eared guys and gals in the book (what I never denied) but if every thing in a Book is to be considered to be "Empire", "Dark Elve" or "Dwarf" or not.

I don't see the issue though.
Nobody ever buys the ASF upgrade for their eagles (they need to stay cheap) and rarely for the griffon. If the monster doesn't have ASF, hatred is redundant since you re-roll anyway

you are almost right, but there are 3 more things... executioners (shades and chars w/ greatweapons too) have no ASF re-rolls, the Frost Phoenix also cancels ASF re-rolls and our dear Black Dragon also hates "High Elves" but has no ASF

The fact that Dwarfs hate (Greenskins) and there is no Warhammer Armies: Greenskins book

Dwarfs hate all kind of Orcs, Goblins, Sotlings including Nightgoblins, Blackorcs, Hobgoblins and Gnoblars... all greenskins of any type

(I translated it from my german copy back to english so it might have another wording in orginal...)

the Dwarf book says what they hate... it gives a definition of what is to be considered as greenskin (savage orcs are not mentioned, but I understand them included in Orcs and the prior book mentioned Savage Orc too)

The O&G book gives a definiton of what a Goblin is (p33, thought only for panic purpose, oh... and it says every unit is Goblin when all riders are Goblins. so a Goblin-Warboss on Dragon would be a Goblin unit in that definition and so would not cause any panic in Orcs even if the Dragon on its own would)

Beastmen p66 "Ungrol" (special character) mentions Armybooks as condition as well as Beastlords p34

Bretonia the shield Orcbane (I think) mentions Orc and Goblin units who have to make their animosity test (not much space for discussion I think)

the Empire book from 2002 (yes... I know it does not have any value anymore) also said that warpriests cause their units hate specific of "Armies" (not specific units, races)

the skavenslayer helmet from the same book also said it causes fear to all units in a Skaven army excluding non-skaven mercenaries

@ Bestarium
Please do not missunderstand me, I surely don´t want to discuss this till the end of time, but I think that it is an importat info for such an issue, and I don't think it is right to cast this argument away just because you already made a "possible" definition of what is a High Elf,

Question: did you even look in the Bestarium?

Note that GW knows how to use the wording "AB" when necessary: in HE AB p.36, "Value of Ages" works as soon as a single model from "DE AB" is on the battlefield.

thats true, but GW gave Dark Elves the rule "Hatred (High Elves)" and the Beastarium (p156 small book/ p484 big book) includes a list called High Elves... and this list includes Spearelves, Silverhelmets and some special characters (ethnic High Elves & AB High Elves) BUT also griffons, gianteagle and all dragons (no ethnic but AB High Elves)! Not included are only units and characters (which are units) which were introduced with the new (current) book, what also applies to the Dark Elves Book (the Medusa is not listed too for example)


I consider this more RAW as the "RAW" definition in the sticky-topic (which is a good and reasonable one, thought)

btw:
Valor of Ages applies when a Dark Elf unit is in the "Armylist". that means it even applies when all DE are dead as I understand its wording - but not when Dark Elves are summoned during the game like SoM allows it