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Tome of Furion: before or after random spells? 
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Corsair
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I'd like your opinion on that.
I assumed that ToF would be used first, then you randomize. But that order might be not mandatory.

Question:
Can you randomize first your 3 spells (for a Lvl4), and only after knowing your randomized spells, you'd pick up the 4th spell?
It would be useful to be reasonably certain to get not only one, but two specific spells.
Randomizing gives you 88,9% chances to get either one of two desirable spells, and ToF would guarantee the other one.

Rulewise:
Spell generation (BRB p.490): Spells are determined by rolling dice.
ToF (AB p.63): When bearer generates Dark Lore spells, she can select one single spell - the other ones must be generated as usual.

Argument: ToF could be understood not to set specifically an order.
Note that it would not allow the sorceress to select a spell already known.

Discuss?

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Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:33 am
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The way I understood it (but I don't have the book in front of me here) is that the wizzard first selects his spell, then generates the rest. So, you could end up with a double on the selected spell, but then you'd still be forced to swap the roll to one other spell. You can not have the same spell twice on the same wizzard.

However, if you have 2 wizzards, the first one could generate his spells. Let's assume he also generated your most desired spell X. The second wizzard, with the book, -is- permitted to pick spell X as well, because the item lets him choose the spell. And the rest is still generated following the normal rules.

So the way I see it... it gives a guarantee on a certain spell for 1 wizzard, and allows duplication if you have 2 wizzards in the same Lore, and the one with the Tome generates his spell last.

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Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:55 am
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Dru Perim
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Page 134 Wizards and Spell Lores. Wizards that have the ability to chose spells must do so during the list building phase (ie: it's written down on your army list which you chose), definitely before random spells.

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Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:55 pm
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Dragon Lord
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Tome overrides that rule as it clearly specifies the spell is selected when spells are generated, but doesn't specify if its before or after rolling. It would make the tome even better.

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Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:58 pm
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Dru Perim
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Yup, re-reading it you're right it does override the BRB :mrgreen:

This is pretty much a dice off situation, and potential mess, until it gets FAQed then. Here's hoping "even better" will be official ruling... when ever they get around to doing FAQs again.

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Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:22 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
doesn't specify if its before or after rolling. It would make the tome even better.


I dunno. The way it's written it clearly distinguishes between:
- the spell you select
- the rest, which is generated as usual.

IMO this allows two interpretations:
- You choose a spell, then roll a dice for the remaining spells
- You roll the dice, then move one roll to a spell of your choice (potentially taking away a bad roll).

I'll look for the specific wording tonight to see if there's any sequential indication. IMO, in no interpretation does it allows a spell duplication for the same wizzard.

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Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:19 pm
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Dragon Lord
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No, but technically it would allow you to roll your spells, and if you rolled the one you wanted to pick with the tome then you could pick another one. It would greatly expand the usefulness of the tome (even though statistically apeaking it makes no difference whatsoever)

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Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:02 pm
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Warrior

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Have you consider the possibility it's neither before or after, but simultaneously? Blurt out your choice as the dice rolls are spinning to a stop.

I thought selecting the spell via the Tome would be happening at the same time you would be deciding whether to swap out a spell for a signature spell or trading in doubles, as even at that point, you are still generating spells.


Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:55 pm
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The "generating spells" part lasts longer than just the toss of the dice. It includes the spell selection.

RAW: the Tome would allow to select the spell at any time during the "generating spells" phase of the game. This would include the freedom to choose a spell after the dice have been rolled, I believe.
However, as it concludes that "the rest must be generated following the normal rules", I feel that no duplicates are allowed, since the "generating spells" for this wizzard ends when a selection of spells is made.

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Furnace of Arcana, a warhammer blog with delusional grandeur.

"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."
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Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:12 pm
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Dark Rider

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I really think you can pick at any point during the generating process.
Advantages to either method?
Pick first and I think your wizard could get 2 copies of the spell if you wanted to. That then brings up the could I cast a spell twice since I know it twice or is it you can only cast a spell once a turn no matter how many times you "know it".
Picking after lets you see if you get the spell you want most, randomly, then pick the one you wanted second if you don't get it etc.


Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:05 pm
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Dragon Lord
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Statistically it makes no difference if you pick before or after.

Say you really want spell 4.
You pick 4 first then roll 3 dice and get 1, 2, 4
Now you have spell 4 two times and replace one of them with a different one.

Same situation but in reverse.
You roll 1, 2, 4. Since you really wanted spell 4, the Tome allows you to pick any other spell, just like if you rolled a double.

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Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:27 am
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Noble
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@Daeron

Quote:
However, as it concludes that "the rest must be generated following the normal rules", I feel that no duplicates are allowed, since the "generating spells" for this wizzard ends when a selection of spells is made.


Would you mind giving the middle calculations of getting to that conclusion.
I dont see how you conclusions follows from "since ....."

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Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:46 am
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Shade
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The only difference I can think where it would matter would be if you wanted a spell combo.

If you wanted WOP and blade wind, or Wop and black horror.
If you chose before you roll you might miss that combo, however unlikely.
So if you want spells #3 and # 6 but roll 1, 2, 4, and 5. In this case it would be better to chose after you roll with the tome of furion. Allowing you time to change your plan.


Sun Oct 27, 2013 7:32 pm
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Slave (off the Altar)

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The wording "she can choose one spell - the rest must be generated following the normal rules" to me implies that the choosing happens before we continue to spell generation, which would be the act of rolling dice.
Therefore; choose with Tome, then roll dice.

I believe you could not end up with 2 of the same spell, since I cannot see how the AB overrides the BRB. The Tome does does fullfill one of the two conditions that must be met for us to be able to double up on a non-signature spell, namely "having no choice" (of which spell to know - clearly we have the choice, it even says in rules of the Tome!) or "army book or lore states we can change to the spell in question" (which only applies to the two signature spells)


Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:05 pm
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