Shrine/COB and stomp/breath in CC

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Shrine/COB and stomp/breath in CC

Post by Pablo »

Moderator's note:
This thread derives from The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB
I separated it in order to facilitate future references.
Calisson.



So it's the same with stomps too?
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Dyvim tvar »

Pablo wrote:So it's the same with stomps too?


Yes.
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Calisson »

There may be a weird issue for the 13th spell.
But for stomp, the issue is not the same, there is a rule solving it and it is not acceptable to refuse stomp because the combined unit is "unique".
See p.99, combined units "are treated as a single combined unit for all rules purposes, save for the exceptions listed below (...)
Close combat: enemy models in base contact with both the character and one or more models from the character's unit can choose..."
Conclusion: the stomping model can legally choose to stomp infantry models, if the model is in contact with infantry, regardless the combined unit type.
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Gidean »

Calisson wrote:There may be a weird issue for the 13th spell.
But for stomp, the issue is not the same, there is a rule solving it and it is not acceptable to refuse stomp because the combined unit is "unique".
See p.99, combined units "are treated as a single combined unit for all rules purposes, save for the exceptions listed below (...)
Close combat: enemy models in base contact with both the character and one or more models from the character's unit can choose..."
Conclusion: the stomping model can legally choose to stomp infantry models, if the model is in contact with infantry, regardless the combined unit type.



This is how I read it too. Now how do you handle chariot impact hits if the BWS is in the unit? It's not a character mount. Do you randomize or just skip the fact that it is there and put all the hits on the squishy stuff?
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Dalamar »

As per shooting.

Meaning the owner of the unit taking damage allocates the hits until every model (excluding characters) has been hit once and then starts over.

I always take the first hit on the shrine as lon as it's S4 or less. Saved me plenty executioners.
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Setomidor »

Calisson wrote:There may be a weird issue for the 13th spell.
But for stomp, the issue is not the same, there is a rule solving it and it is not acceptable to refuse stomp because the combined unit is "unique".
See p.99, combined units "are treated as a single combined unit for all rules purposes, save for the exceptions listed below (...)
Close combat: enemy models in base contact with both the character and one or more models from the character's unit can choose..."
Conclusion: the stomping model can legally choose to stomp infantry models, if the model is in contact with infantry, regardless the combined unit type.


Absolutely not! :shock: If you interpret it that way, you are also saying that you can choose to direct your stomp at a character inside a unit, which is definitely not the case. :)

I think the stomp rules are very clear on the subject, they say:

Code: Select all

A Stomp has the Always Strike Last special rule, and inflicts 1 automatic hit, at the model's Strength, on one enemy infantry, war beast, or swarm unit in base contact with the model.


With the above reasoning that the unit type of Execs+BW is Unique, and the fact that a unit cannot have two unit types at once, the unit is not a valid target for stomp.
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Calisson »

@ Setomidor
It is not my interpretation, it is my reading p.99.

Like it or not, close combat is listed as one exception to units being treated as combined.

With the above said, Exec+BW is a combined unit, but to be a combined unit has no meaning in close combat.
Each model just keeps his own troop type, and Execs can legally be stomped as long as the stomper has base contact with them.
Of course, if the stomper selects to stomp the character, that's an autofail, as a character is not a legal target.
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Gidean »

Dalamar wrote:As per shooting.

Meaning the owner of the unit taking damage allocates the hits until every model (excluding characters) has been hit once and then starts over.

I always take the first hit on the shrine as lon as it's S4 or less. Saved me plenty executioners.



Good to know! I'll start doing the same. Even with higher strength Hits because your opponent almost never allocates hits against the Shrine. Better for it to take a single wound than lose a valuable executioner.
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Setomidor »

Calisson wrote:@ Setomidor
It is not my interpretation, it is my reading p.99.


I'm sorry but I still can't really see what you are referring to here. Even if we assume that you could direct your stomp to characters or units (which I would disagree with, but anyway), the rules on p.99. very clearly discuss characters in units. The Dark Elf army book very clearly states that the Shrine is _not_ a character, even though it may join units.
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Dyvim tvar »

Page 99 "Combined Units" covers the situation of a character added to a unit. It says nothing about the unit type of a unit that mixes 2 different types of non-character models.
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Calisson »

Ah, OK, I see your difficulty.

Rules
Combined unit (p.99) is indeed only defined for characters being part of a unit.
Will of Gods (AB p.47) specifies indeed that the chariot can join & leave a unit like if it was a character, but is not considered to be a character otherwise.

I see two ways to interpret these two rules together.


Interpretation 1: chariot and unit do NOT combine.
(Setomidor and Dyvim tvar)

After the chariot has joined the unit, p.99 no longer applies, and together, they do NOT constitute a combined unit.
The rationale is a strict reading of the AB rule, which I do not contest, since it is RAW.
The consequence is that p.99 ceases to apply immediately after the chariot has joined the unit.

The difficulty is that if p.99 does not apply, then there is no way anybody can argue that they constitute a single unit.
The consequence is that they remain two separate units. They just happen to maintain 0" separation instead of 1", and it just happens that the unit is split in order to let the chariot be inserted.

Back to the original debate, there's no way to pretend that the combined unit is "unique", as there would be no such thing as the combined unit.
We would be in a situation where the stomping unit is in contact with two different units, and if a model is in contact with two units, it selects which one to stomp.

Problem solved... or is it? Didn't we open the Pandora Box?

The difficulty of considering a chariot within a unit as two separate units will come when someone shoots at either one, casts a spell or provoke a Ld test.
For example, if there is a friendly unit destroyed at less than 6" of a COB with no DH (Ld=0) within a BG unit (ITP), what to do? The COB would auto-flee and never rally, leaving the BG alone?
Other example, same group losing combat, the COB would auto-flee, leaving the two halves of the BG block reforming into a single block?
The problem is that it is contrary to AB, because the COB would leave the unit unlike a character, i.e. contrary to the AB.
We come to a contradiction, and I foresee no easy way to solve it.

Overall, considering that "the chariot not being a character prevents the combination with a unit into a combined unit" has its merits, but creates tough issues.


Interpretation 2: chariot and unit DO combine.
(This is where I interpret, as Setomidor protested.)

Here, in order to avoid the difficult situation mentioned above, we must interpolate the situation beween "joining" and "leaving".
The strict reading is that at the instant the chariot joins, the two units combine into a single, combined unit. They are also considered as a combined unit when they separate.
The interpretation required is that in between, for all matters concerning the two units as a whole, they should be considered as a single, combined unit;
the word "otherwise" in the AB would be there only to prevent the use of a chariot as a character (challenges...).
The weak point of this broad interpretation is that this interpolation is not the strictest RAW.
The good point is that it simplifies greatly all other issues.
Because of that, I did change my mind from the strictest interpretation to that broader one.

With that interpretation, the combined unit exists at all times, and is to be considered as "unique".
But nevertheless, p.99 makes close combat an exception to combined units, and the infantry can be stomped even if there is a chariot within.


Conclusion.
Whatever the interpretation of how AB & p.99 mix together, infantrymen can always be stomped.
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Dalamar »

I think Calisson is on to something here.

Since will of the gods makes cob and bws join units like a character, I think the most sensible way to interpret it is that all rules for characters joining units apply (no look out sir due to different footprint, two separate troop types etc.)

This would largely stop all issues and arguments of interpreting vague rules to our advantage.
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Setomidor »

Not at all, I am convinced that both Dyvim tvar and I agree with you that they do combine into a single unit, the difference is that you seem to interpret a combined unit to have multiple unit types at one (in this case both Chariot and Infantry) depending on which part of the unit you target. I argue that for effects that target the entire unit (such as Stomps) you can only consider the troop type of the entire unit, and if you choose to apply the Skaven FAQ that would mean that the unit type for the unit is set to Unique.

Have you not come across this before? Skink/Kroxigor cohorts was considered Unique and hence unstompable for years before the latest Lizarmen book came out.
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Dalamar »

Yet kroxigors don't join units "like a character" and now the unit is stompable.
Our shrines join units "like a character" and now I don't see why they would cherrypick the rules on characters joining units in most favorable fashion.

I was in the same camo before. I can change my mind in light of new evidence (well, old evidence but presented in a clearer manner thanks to Calisson)
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Dyvim tvar »

If it were not for the Skaven FAQ, I would agree that the unit can be stomped, but extrapolating from that FAQ, I think they cannot.

That being said, the sensible way to do things would be to allow any unit that includes rank-and-file infantry models to be stomped. I would house-rule it that way if I were a tournament organizer.
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Setomidor »

I agree completely, and I am actually all in favour for the (quite common) ruling that joining a unit never changes it's unit type.
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Dalamar »

As far as the skaven faq goes... I would actually ignore it completely except for the specific case it deals with.

It's an outdated faq for an army that sorely needs to get over the edition hiccup and I don't believe it's relevant anymore. Just look at lizardmen skrox for a more up to date example of mixed unit.
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Calisson »

Setomidor wrote:Not at all, I am convinced that both Dyvim tvar and I agree with you that they do combine into a single unit
Please quote the rule which allows two units to merge into a combined unit.
If not p.99, I don't know where it is.

If the concept you use is the rule p.99, then please accept the aforementioned exceptions, i.e. melee, including stomp.
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Setomidor »

Calisson wrote:If the concept you use is the rule p.99, then please accept the aforementioned exceptions, i.e. melee, including stomp.


I guess that is what we interpret differently, I do not see Stomp or Breath weapons as the kind of attacks that are covered by the exceptions that you refer too. This is mainly because their rules both affect a single unit in base contact, and you cannot divide and allocate them in the same way as you can with regular CC attacks. The way I read p.99 is that it only affects normal melee attacks which can specifically divided between target models.

With your way of interpreting things, both Stomps and Breath weapons would be possible to allocate towards single enemy characters inside units, is this how you usually play it? For me that would be in direct conflict with how the basic rules for both are formulated.
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Calisson »

Setomidor wrote:With your way of interpreting things, both Stomps and Breath weapons would be possible to allocate towards single enemy characters inside units, is this how you usually play it? For me that would be in direct conflict with how the basic rules for both are formulated.
Close combat is explicitely listed as an exception for combined units:
"In the Close Combat phase, enemy models in base contact with both the character and one of more models from the character's unit can choose to attack the character or the unit, or split their attacks between them."

Stomp is a close combat attack, reading p.76 which tells that it comes "in addition to its other close combat attacks"
As such, happening during the close combat phase, it belongs to the exceptions for a combined unit, of which each component retain their original type, i.e. infantry and character (or chariot for a shrine).
Of course, if the opponent selected to stomp a characterchariot (edited), that would be an illegal target. But infantry is a legal target, there can be no dispute on that.

Breath weapon close combat attack is described p.67. It is specifically written that this weapon hits "a single enemy unit in base contact - if there is more than one enemy unit in base contact with the model, the controlling player can select which enemy unit suffers the hits."
Note that it is a close combat attack, as the title clearly tells. It happens during close combat phase, therefore the concept of combined unit is not applicable and each character is to be considered as a separate unit. Contrary to stomp, the controlling player cannot split attacks.


Example, if a dragon happens to be in contact with a combined unit including infantry, a shrine and a character (on foot),
the breath weapon close combat attack, 2D6 autohits, should be allocated in a single block, except that (edit) the FAQ p.42 says "distributed as a shooting attack": see p.99;
the thunderstomp, D6 autohits, could be allocated at will between the three targets, except that (edit) the FAQ p.42 says "distributed as a shooting attack": see p.99.
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Gidean »

Calisson wrote:Stomp is a close combat attack, reading p.76 which tells that it comes "in addition to its other close combat attacks"
As such, happening during the close combat phase, it belongs to the exceptions for a combined unit, of which each component retain their original type, i.e. infantry and character (or chariot for a shrine).
Of course, if the opponent selected to stomp a character chariot, that would be an illegal target. But infantry is a legal target, there can be no dispute on that.



I started looking for the restriction about targeting a character with your stomp and I can't find it. I know I saw it before...can someone help please? The part that makes selecting a character an illegal target for the stomp or thunderstomp attack.
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Dyvim tvar »

Stomp and Thunderstomp hits CAN hit characters. However, they are allocated like shooting against the unit. As a result, they will normally only be eligible to be hit once there are fewer than 5 rank and file models.
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Gidean »

Dyvim tvar wrote:Stomp and Thunderstomp hits CAN hit characters. However, they are allocated like shooting against the unit. As a result, they will normally only be eligible to be hit once there are fewer than 5 rank and file models.



Yes. Need a page and paragraph please. I don't see the allocated like shooting language. At least when I looked at the rule book this morning. It says a stomp is done to one model in base contact with the stomper.
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Calisson »

Gidean wrote:I started looking for the restriction about targeting a character with your stomp and I can't find it. I know I saw it before...can someone help please? The part that makes selecting a character an illegal target for the stomp or thunderstomp attack.
Sorry, I made a mistake. Thank you for pointing at it.
Stomp rule, p.76. Second sentence: "... on one enemy infantry, war beasts or swarm unit in base contact with the model"
There's nothing preventing to stomp a character, provided he has the type infantry.
Edited my post above.

@ Dyvim
Where in the rulebook do you find stomp is allocated like shooting?
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Re: The Dreaded Thirteenth and WE/COB

Post by Setomidor »

Games Workshop Warhammer Rulebook FAQ wrote:Stomp and Breath Weapons, count as close combat attacks? (p42) A: No they count as an unusual attack and will be distributed as a shooting attack.
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