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[FAQ] Can an Assassin deploy 'hidden' in scouting Shades? 
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What the rules say

The previous edition permitted Assassins to deploy hidden in scouting Shades. But the wording and the rules changed. To make this clear, we quote the rules from both editions:

7th edition DE book wrote:
Special Rules: Eternal Hatred, Khainite, Always Strike First, Poisoned Attacks, Scout

Hidden: An Assassin is a special type of character. He begins the game hidden in one of the following units: Dark Elf Spearmen, ...., Shades, .... Make a note of which unit the Assassin is hiding in.

A hidden Assassin is not placed on the table during deployment, but is revealed later in the game. If his concealing unit is wiped out or flees from the battlefield before he is revealed, the Assassin is also lost and counts as a casualty. There is no other way the Assassin can be harmed before he is revealed.

Hidden Assassins may be revealed at the beginning of any of your turns or at the start of any Close Combat phase. Declare that the unit contains an Assassin and place the model in the front rank. ....


Whereas now, it reads:
8th edition DE book wrote:
Special rules: Always strikes first, Hatred(High Elves), Immune to Psychology, Murderous Prowess, Poisoned attacks
...
Hidden: An Assassin can choose to deploy 'hidden' within another friendly Dark Elf infantry unit (but not Harpies) - make a note of which unit is concealing the Assassin.

<second paragraph is the same as the second paragraph from 7th, to the letter>

Hidden Assassins may be revealed at the start of any of your Movement phases, or at the start of either player's Close Combat phase; declare that the unit in question contains an Assassin and place the model anywhere in the front-rank of that unit ....


Conclusions from RAW
- Assassin is a character, and deployed as such
- Assassin can deploy with the rule "hidden", but it is still a deployment.
- Assassins no longer have the "scout" special rule.


Feedback from other communities

From Warhammer.co.uk
hewhorox wrote:
The rules said something like the assassin is deployed with an infantry unit (but not harpies.) this seems to indicate that the model is deployed just not placed on the table and therefore it should follow the normal rules for deployment that it does not have specific exemptions from.


This argument implies that the deployment for the Assassin occurs before the Shades. He is "deployed" following all restrictions of a character but can use the "hidden" rule. The Assassin is free to hide in any unit on the table. The hidden rule (and lack of a scout rule) does not grant the Assassin the means to deploy in a unit not already on the table.

From Warhammer.fr
This argument is written in the language of France which I shall not utter here, but it means:

Quote:
An Assassin can choose to deploy hidden

This implies the Assassin is deployed, following all rules for deployment with only the exceptions listed in the hidden description.

Proposed conclusion

1) An Assassin does not have the scouting rule, granting him an exception to deploy out of sequence. He is deployed together with all other characters, and while "hidden" permits him to hide, he must be deployed in a unit already on the table.

2) As the Assassin lacks the scouting rule, he is restricted by all regular deployment rules fitting for a character in the selected scenario. The rule 'hidden' does not specify an exception to this.

Can an Assassin hide in scouting Shades? No.

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Very nicely presented argument. I am in total agreement, with no scout rule now, I am also fairly sure this was the designers intention too.

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Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:23 pm
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Let's read What the rules say
Daeron wrote:
- Assassin can deploy with the rule "hidden", but it is still a deployment.
As a preliminary, I'd like to stress out that the words "to deploy / deployement" have several meanings.
Read p.149: "The player that won the roll-off must deploy their entire army first", and on the same page, "Reserves are not deployed at the start of the battle." One might conclude either that reserves do not belong to the army, or that "to deploy" has several meanings.
The odd use of "deploy" is seen also for ambushers, p.79, "A unit with the Ambushers rule does not deploy at the start of the battle." That's one of the "deployement" special rule. :roll:

From these examples, I can determine that "to deploy" could sometimes be the same thing as "to be placed on the table",
or it could mean to do something specific during the deployment part of the game, like Reserves and Ambushers who are not deployed when they are deployed :o_O: . We must keep that in mind before we force an Assassin to do anything during deployment because of that word alone.
With this said, there is not much left that can be drawn from Daeron's sentence "- Assassin can deploy with the rule "hidden", but it is still a deployment."

-=-=-

Let's add a few more quotes. Character's deployement is specified p.142:
"All characters must be deployed last...
but may be set up in separate locations or units in their deployment zone".

There's a timing (last) and a place (deployed in deployment zone).

Scouts are described p.79 to "set up after all other non-Scout units..." i.e. after characters.

Assassins are quoted above, "can choose to deploy 'hidden'... A hidden Assassin is not placed on the table during deployment..."

-=-=-

Let's start combining things together.
Assassins are characters, they should "be set up in separate locations or units in their deployment zone" i.e. necessarily on the table.
However, hidden Assassins are "not placed on the table during deployment".
This leaves out no possibility for hidden Assassin to respect the rule for character deployment, i.e. "to set up ... in the deployment zone". A hidden Assassin just cannot do that.

There is not much left to draw from Daeron's sentence - Assassin is a character, and deployed as such

Possibly the first part of the sentence could be required, i.e. to deploy before Shades.
So what? The assassin hidden deployement is to write the name of the unit. There is no rule to force the said unit to be on the table. "Make a note" is the only requirement and anyone adding that the unit must already be on the table is making a house rule.

-=-=-

Conclusion:
1) An Assassin does not have the scouting rule, granting him an exception to deploy out of sequence. He is deployed together with all other characters, and while "hidden" permits him to hide , he must be deployed in a unit already on the table. in any legitimate unit, for which there exist no requirement to be on the table.

2) As the Assassin lacks the scouting rule, he is restricted byall regular deployment rules fitting for a character in the selected scenario. The rule 'hidden' does not specify an exception to this, however. Indeed, the hidden assassin cannot go on the table at all, neither out of the deployement zone nor inside it.


-=-=-

Your next question should be: Why in the world did they remove the scouting rule?
Dalamar had a good explanation. That's because now, the 'sass can be deployed not hiding. Making him a regular scout would have provided a possibility for another scout drop, with a super-tiny footprint. If only for that reason, it was wise to drop "scout".

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Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:45 pm
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Thank you Calisson but I must respectfully disagree. The rules do not explicitly "disallow" the deployment in scouting Shades, but there is no construction by which they are allowed to. It would be possible only if the Scenario specifically would permit it, but that is not the case. The Scenario is relevant to the discussion, indeed, for the scenario dictates deployment rules.

I believe it is a consequence of the natural order of the game. Let's say we play a game of Battleline. Players are deploying one unit at a time, alternating, and as their final choice come the characters.
(1) Time of deployment: The Assassin has no rule making him an exception here. He's not a scout. "Hidden" doesn't say "he doesn't have to deploy but can instead". It says "An Assassin can choose to deploy 'hidden' within another friendly ..." (RAW we should't even decide, but ask our miniature :D). There is no notion that the Assassin is exempted from this, unlike the scouts deployment rule.
(2) Selection of a unit: "deploy 'hidden' within another friendly Dark Elf infantry unit (but not Harpies)". I see no reason to assume this is different from any other character, apart from the fact he's not put on the table (2nd paragraph in the section "Hidden"). The same reason why no regular character can choose to deploy in a scouting unit is the same reason an Assassin can not deploy in a scouting unit at this point.
(3) He can not deploy outside the permitted deployment zone because.. that is the general rule and there is no rule saying he can.

The reason I quoted the 7th edition book is to emphasise the two parts of his profile that permitted the 7th edition Assassin to deploy in scouting Shades:
1) The Assassin used to have the scout special rule
2) "Hidden" was described differently. "He begins the game hidden in one of the following units". His entire deployment is removed. He can not even choose not to deploy inside a unit. The 8th edition Assassin clarifies that he -is deployed- but can be "hidden". The rule has changed fundamentally in regards of the deployment aspect.

So what pushes me to accept the conclusion I posted in the OP is that if you follow the game step-by-step, that is the natural and prescribed outcome.
You don't have to fight the definition of deployment, as "Hidden" builds on top of the deployment phase. You don't have to use a trick like "he can't impact the game" to dodge the deployment requirement by not really considering him deployed. He is deployed, but not put on the table... and all the rules required to process this are put in the "Hidden" description.

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Daeron wrote:
(3) He can not deploy outside the permitted deployment zone because.. that is the general rule and there is no rule saying he can.


This is where your argument falls apart for me. There is a rule that allows the Assassin to deploy outside the deployment zone -- if the Assassin is hidden, he isn't deployed in the deployment zone since he's not on the table at all. Ultimately, since he is not on the table at all, the idea of a "deployment zone" for the assassin is functionally meaningless. The only restriction within the rule is that he has to hide in an infantry unit, and Shades qualify.

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Shades could qualify if they don't scout. However even hidden he has effectively joined the the unit, and as he doesn't have the scout rule, you could argue according to p100 of the BRB the unit would not be able to use that special rule whilst he is in it, as the unit does not confer the ability to him.
A normal character would not be able to scout with the Shades, I can see nothing to say the assassin is an exception to this rule.

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Hey, Daeron, no need to apologize for a different opinion, that's rules discussion! :D

I see no reason to assume this is different from any other character,
apart from the fact he's not put on the table

Well, if you remove the placement on the table, what remains from a character's deployment? :o_O:
"All characters must be deployed last, again taking up just one turn,
but may be set up in separate locations or units in their deployment zone."

Basically, if the table is off limits, the only thing remaining is the timing.

"In the deployment zone + not on the table", that's flatly impossible.


The same reason why no regular character can choose to deploy in a scouting unit is the same reason an Assassin can not deploy in a scouting unit at this point.
I cannot disagree more.

A regular character has to deploy on the table, and the scouting unit is not on the table. That's a very strong reason.

Hidden assassin do not have this problem. The only requirement is to note the name of one legitimate unit, and shades are eligible.


He can not deploy outside the permitted deployment zone because.. that is the general rule and there is no rule saying he can.
That's the opposite. The hidden assassin actually has a specific rule, forcing him away from the permitted deployment zone: "A hidden Assassin is not placed on the table during deployment"
The only place where he can deploy hidden is " 'hidden' within another friendly Dark Elf infantry unit (but not Harpies) - make a note of which unit is concealing the Assassin."
That's not on the table. That's on a note.


The 8th edition Assassin clarifies that he -is deployed- but can be "hidden".
As I mentioned already, reserves are not "deployed" when they are deployed, ambushers are not "deployed" when they are deployed, similarly hidden assassins need not to be "deployed" when they are deployed. In all three cases, there is a very specific "deployment" procedure during deployment phase, which delays the actual "deployment".

-=-=-

Amboadine wrote:
Shades could qualify if they don't scout. However even hidden he has effectively joined the the unit, and as he doesn't have the scout rule, you could argue according to p100 of the BRB the unit would not be able to use that special rule whilst he is in it, as the unit does not confer the ability to him.
Well, that's not the case, he has not effectively joined the unit.
If the assassin was wearing a magic item conferring magic resistance, the unit would not benefit from it. Proof that any special rule pertinent to the assassin is irrelevant until you "Declare that the unit contains an Assassin and place the model". Before that, he is not there.
Amboadine wrote:
A normal character would not be able to scout with the Shades, I can see nothing to say the assassin is an exception to this rule.
There is no exception. The shades are alone when they scout.

The assassin is revealed later, with his special rule that makes him jump from outside of the table into the unit that was designated.
That's what the rules say:
Hidden = not on the table
Revealed = in the front rank.

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Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:08 pm
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Dyvim tvar wrote:
Daeron wrote:
(3) He can not deploy outside the permitted deployment zone because.. that is the general rule and there is no rule saying he can.


This is where your argument falls apart for me. There is a rule that allows the Assassin to deploy outside the deployment zone -- if the Assassin is hidden, he isn't deployed in the deployment zone since he's not on the table at all. Ultimately, since he is not on the table at all, the idea of a "deployment zone" for the assassin is functionally meaningless. The only restriction within the rule is that he has to hide in an infantry unit, and Shades qualify.


Well, I feel the order of the deployment is a key part. He deploys with all characters. He can not deploy in scouting Shades at this time because they are not on the table. And the rules explicitly state he is deployed in a unit, be it hidden.

If it were the 7th edition wording of the rule, I would argue you have a case, but I now feel the rewording of the rule exactly make this kind of deployment unachievable. It's not that the rules explicitly forbid it. It is that, if you follow the rules one step at a time, I feel it is natural that he can not join a scouting unit.

I feel the comparison with the previous edition reinforces this. Why else would the rule 'scout' be removed, and the wording "begins the game hidden" to "deploy hidden within...". They even copy pasted the second paragraph, but they did filter out both rulings that would permit this tactic.

In all honesty, I would love for the Assassin to be able to do this, but seeing the rules presented like this... Well, I'm convinced the rules don't offer a way to do it, and that this was exactly the purpose for rewriting the rule.

Calisson, you do bring a good argument, but I there's two ways to deploy the Assassin :
- like a regular character. Hiding is not enforced.
- hiding, which is a special deployment move explained in the rule. That he is not on the table doesn't make him impervious to all rules in the book. He is considered deployed, but hidden.
It seems our difference is mostly about whether the scouts are an eligible unit. I feel not, because the unit is not even in the game yet at the point where the Assassin has to "deploy within a friendly, dark elf infantry unit". That he is deployed but not put on the table is indeed not the usual way... That is why it is a 'special' rule ;)

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Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:32 pm
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There is no conceptual difficulty in hiding virtually inside a virtual unit. ;)

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Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:37 pm
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I "deploy" my assassins on top of my army list on the entry corresponding to the unit they are hiding in. Thus I am fulfilling the deployment requirement.

In any way I will refrain from siding with one way or the other since due to lack of rending stars I see no reason to deploy assassins with shades anymore.

To add to the argument, say you have a unit in reserve (caused by scenario or some such). Can assassin hide in a unit that is not on the table yet? And neither is the assassin.

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Calisson wrote:
There is no conceptual difficulty in hiding virtually inside a virtual unit. ;)


Nice :)

Whilst we might interpret the rule differently, I do see the arguments you are putting forth. I just don't believe the intention was there for the assassin to be in a scouting unit, however the execution of the writing of the rule does leave ambiguity in my opinion.

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Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:46 pm
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Often, a good indication about intended rules is found in rules as written.
Amboadine wrote:
I just don't believe the intention was there for the assassin to be in a scouting unit
I just don't believe the intention was there for the assassin to be in a harpy unit.
They even needed not to specify, characters can never join flyers anyway. They did specify nevertheless.

If the intention was not to allow assassins with shades, when characters can routinely join shades, they should have been at least as explicit as for harpies.
They did not specify nevertheless.
OK, that's just my opinion on RAI, it is not a proof. ;)

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"say you have a unit in reserve (caused by scenario or some such). Can assassin hide in a unit that is not on the table yet? And neither is the assassin." Excellent question Dalamar.

Another question here. I don't know how every one else does it but I always choose the unit the assassin is in before any deployment begins. If he is "deployed" hidden like any other character does that mean I choose what unit he is hiding in after all my other non scouting units?

Personally I think assassins are bad ass enough that they should be able to hide in scouting units. I mean if your good enough (shadow blade) you can hide in enemy units!


Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:49 am
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General Kael wrote:
Another question here. I don't know how every one else does it but I always choose the unit the assassin is in before any deployment begins. If he is "deployed" hidden like any other character does that mean I choose what unit he is hiding in after all my other non scouting units?


Yes. You choose this at the time your characters are deployed. This is one of the key differences with how the rule was written in 7th edition. In 7th "the assassin begins the game hidden in..". In 8th the assassin is "deployed in".

Calisson wrote:
I just don't believe the intention was there for the assassin to be in a harpy unit

I believe deploying in Shades is permitted.. But not if they scout.

If you follow the deployment step-by-step, you get to the interpretation proposed in the OP... or that's how I see it. But there's another angle to support this.
Normally, no character can deploy with scouts unless they have the same rule and they follow all the restrictions of a normal character deployment. There is no explicit counter on this in the "Hidden" rule. What it does counter, explicitly, is the part where he is put on the table. This is logical: if he would be put on the table, he wouldn't be a surprise now would he be? :)

While I think I understand the case made for Assassins to deploy in scouting units, even if they are not on the table, I feel this is stretching the interpretation:
- You have to invalidate the action of "deployment"
- You have to invalidate the regular restrictions of deployment, building on the case that "he is not on the table".
I believe this is 7th edition logic. There is no need for such stretched interpretation.

Take a look back at the 7th edition rule and see what it was that permitted him to deploy in scouting Shades: he has the scouting rule AND he begins the game in a unit. The first part is what grants him the ability to deploy in scouts. The second part... kind of permits a stretched interpretation... but there is no conflict because he is a scout himself.
In 8th edition they went through the trouble of filtering that out, both the scouting rule and they replaced 'starting the game hidden' by 'deployed hidden in a unit'. They even copy-pasted the second paragraph and copied every other rule to the letter: RAI I think they wanted to change exactly that scouting aspect of the Shade.
I do not believe the "Hidden" rule is meant as a free pass to do whatever and ignore basic deployment restrictions.

It is definitely a nerf to the utility of the Assassin (as if it needed one) but to me, it reads 100% clear that they can't. I rest my case for now. I doubt I have many arguments left to add, but I will certainly keep track of your responses!

Either way, I appreciate the discussion and the maturity with which your arguments are presented. After seeing the venom some people put in their posts on other forums, I'm glad we're spared that! Thank you. :)

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Well, it seems that we made a progress since the OP. :)
Now you don't contest anymore that shades are eligible, despite not being on the table when the 'sass is (so called) "deployed".


The mechanics of the "hidden" rule, as written, is not intuitive, but is simple and nothing stretched.
Try to forget that any previous edition existed at all, and things might be easier.
RAW = "A hidden Assassin is not placed on the table during deployment, but is revealed later in the game."
Most characters are deployed during deployement, in the deployement zone.
Hiding assassins are deployed later, in the chosen unit's first rank.

1- The assassin actual deployement on the table is postponed, like for reserves and ambushers.
"A hidden Assassin is not placed on the table"
It means that before the 'sass is revealed, he is "hidden" outside of the table, i.e. not inside the shade unit.
Therefore, the shade unit is no more hampered by the lack of "scout" special rule than it would benefit from an eventual magic resistance special rule that the 'sass could have.

2- The actual deployement happens when you reveal the assassin.
To reveal: "place the model in the front rank"
That's when he gets to leave the transport box and to be placed on the table, i.e. what people (and GW) refer as "to deploy".
His special deployment is inside the chosen unit. If that unit is no longer on the table, he cannot deploy and is lost, just like Ambushers missing their entry condition (p.79).

-=-=-

I am curious to read how you could try to demonstrate that shades could scout only if the 'sass had the scout special rule, but still would not benefit from MR special rule even if the same 'sass had an obsidian trinket MR(1).

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Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:35 am
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A small note:
Calisson wrote:
Now you don't contest anymore that shades are eligible, despite not being on the table when the 'sass is (so called) "deployed".

That's not what I said or meant. Shades are eligible if they don't scout (for example if the scenario would demand they deploy like a regular unit). The filter is not on the "Shades" but the scouts.

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The bottom line for me is that "Hidden" is a specific rule that takes precedence over the general rules of deployment.

The rule permits deployment in any non-Harpy infantry unit. There is no restriction based on where the unit must be located vis-a-vis the deployment zone, and so I don't believe such a restriction should be applied.

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Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:11 pm
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I agree that it takes precedence, but I do not agree with the extent that it is given.

I have given it some time to formulate a more elaborate post and answer many of the points made. Comments are certainly welcome, but I hope we won't tumble to "one word errors" to invalidate the entire post. I'll handle the arguments one by one, as they have been raised in this topic. If I missed any, please do mention them and I'll try to address them.

Of course, anyone else is also welcome to advocate their stance :D But it seems I have more words to spill on the subject.

Comparison with 7th edition and why it is relevant
Calisson critiqued my comparison with the previous edition. I agree that we should be making choices and decisions as if it never existed. I mean no offence, but I feel that people cling to a tactic from a previous book and seek this option in the new rules, instead of reading the rules with a clean slate and building up, step by step, what the rules construct.

The contrast in rules between the books could help clarify we lost that tactic. The 7th edition book is also the only example of a comparable rule in Warhammer, so "why there and not here?" seemed like an interesting point.

In the 7th edition book, the single most important special rule that permitted an Assassin to deploy in scouts was the "scout" special rule. This was reinforced by how "Hidden" was described, where the Assassin starts the game hidden in any unit, including Shades (explicitly mentioned).

In contrast with 7th edition, "Hidden" has changed and the "scout" special rule has disappeared.

Clean slate: a Master with the hidden rule

Please try this once. Put two units on the table and keep a unit of Shades on the side. Then take a Master in your hand. The only difference between a Master and an Assassin relevant to this discussion is the "hidden" special rule. So let us start from a Master and add the special rule later. This could help us forget the logic from the previous edition. A Master (and any character) is bound to:
(1) deploy at the same time as other characters, taking up 1 turn in total for the deployment
(2) deployable alone or in another friendly DE unit already on the table
(3) deployable only within one's own deployment zone as specified by the scenario

Then we dig up the rule "Hidden" and give it to the Master. The first paragraph states he can choose to deploy with the rule 'hidden' in a friendly DE infantry unit (but not Harpies). We don't know the details of "hidden" yet, but let's see the impact on deployment rules thus far. Rule (1) and (3) remain unchanged. Rule (2) is refined as now the character can hide but only in a friendly DE infantry unit or choose to deploy as a normal character with no refinement.
There is no reason to assume he is permitted to deploy in scouts at this point. It doesn't explicitly state an exception to the rules and as such we should assume that those regular rules still apply. Hidden takes precedence yes.. but it didn't erase all deployment rules.

The second paragraph of the rule comes up: it doesn't negate that he is deployed (no explicit notion of it! we have to assume the wording above it is correct). Instead it elaborates that the adjective "hidden" in first paragraph means that he isn't put on the table during deployment but instead you note the unit he is deployed in. This is a clear exception to the deployment rules as usually they are put on the table. But does it mention any other restriction/rule being removed?
At no point does this construct an explicit exception to the above deployment rules, not the time of deployment, nor the restriction that the unit already has to be on the table. Those two units you have on the table are your options but you can "hide" the Assassin there.

As no explicit ruling is given that scouting the Assassin permitted, not even a key word, I find the assumption to select scouts unsupported.

Not being on the table doesn't mean anything goes

The logic that he isn't on the table and thus doesn't apply the restrictions on Shades doesn't add up. The point isn't that Shades lose their scouting rules. The point is that if he deploys in (or nominates) a unit, it has to be a unit on the table just like any other character. The deployment of non scouting units has to be finished before scouts deploy.

There is only 1 scenario where characters are permitted to deploy in units that are not on the table and the rules for handling that are described explicitly with little room for error: you have to announce that a character is joining this unit if the roll decided that the unit will come as reinforcement and not be deployed. Scouts are handled differently in that scenario, with explicit rules, and again the Assassin misses out because of these rules.

GW may have slip ups, but they can still be right... sometimes

The Assassin doesn't have the scouting special rule, and that should be the only indication needed. Saying that he can still scout with a unit, even though he doesn't have the rule and there is no explicit mention of this being permitted, is giving GW an all time low in rule writing. At the very least it feels fishy to me. We may all have our own opinions on GWs ability to write rules, but that's giving them very little credit.

If not this, what else? Why the rules change? RAI he isn't meant to scout

GW copy pasted the second paragraph for the hidden rule of the Assassin. But they didn't miss out to remove the scout rule. They didn't miss out in rewording Hidden where it mattered. If they meant for the Assassin to scout, why not copy paste the rule entirely? Why not copy paste the scout rule?
All of this could have been made easy with five letters: "scout".

Instead we are trying to find gaps in the wording, tricks like "restrictions don't apply because he is 'brought' later in the game", and "not on the table, no restrictions". Because G.W. accidentally removed "scout"? I highly doubt it.

Now this has given me thirst for a beer or some olives and wine. Join me in Belgium, and I'll buy a round. I thank you, if you managed to read all my rambling. Sorry for the wall of text.

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Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:11 pm
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Daeron wrote:
The logic that he isn't on the table and thus doesn't apply the restrictions on Shades doesn't add up. The point isn't that Shades lose their scouting rules. The point is that if he deploys in (or nominates) a unit, it has to be a unit on the table just like any other character. The deployment of non scouting units has to be finished before scouts deploy.


I don't see anything requiring the Assassin need to deploy with a unit already on the table. When the assassin "deploys", he isn't placed on the table. You just make a note of which unit he is hiding in. There is nothing in this rules that requires or even assumes that the unit is already on the table.

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Those are basic deployment rules, and unless there is an explicit notion this has changed, I see no reason to assume he is an exception in this respect.
Do you feel that being deployable in scouts is what was intended?

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Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:24 pm
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1) "Hidden" is already an exception to basic deployment rules. The fact that the Assassin is not placed on the table at all completely removes him from the scope of normal deployment rules.

2) I have no idea of what the intent may be. I think it's generally pointless to to try to ascertain intent and doubly so to make interpretation arguments based on presumed intent.

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Daeron wrote:
The 7th edition book is also the only example of a comparable rule in Warhammer
I'd like to nominate Ambushers, p.79 and Reerves, p.149, as examples of units which do not deploy during deployment phase.

Daeron wrote:
it doesn't negate that he is deployed (no explicit notion of it!
Disagree: "A hidden Assassin is not placed on the table during deployment" is explicit.
If deployment is not about setting up units on the table, please explain where it is defined and quote the sentences telling what it means.

Daeron wrote:
The point is that if he deploys in (or nominates) a unit, it has to be a unit on the table just like any other character.
Not RAW.
The only requirement is infantry (not harpies).

Daeron wrote:
GW may have slip ups, but they can still be right... sometimes
Assuming like you do that GW wanted to rule out Harpies and Shades, please explain why they did exclude Harpies but did not exclude Shades. :o_O:
Please consider in your answer that no character may join flyers anyway.

Daeron wrote:
The Assassin doesn't have the scouting special rule, and that should be the only indication needed. Saying that he can still scout ...RAI he isn't meant to scout
Please, read the rules p.79 about scouting: "Scouts are set up...".
Hidden assassins are not set up during deployement. Therefore you cannot claim that they did scout, even hidden in a shade unit.

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Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:04 pm
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I deployed my shades 8" outside deployment zone to stop enemy vanguard
Then I moved them back into deployment zone.
Next turn I reveal an assassin in that unit of shades. He's now deployed in my deployment zone.

Bear in mind the assassin was at no point "scouted" as he wasn't on the table and models not on the table don't participate in the game.

Was that move legal?.

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I sure wish Mr. Ward had a degree in English Writing before he was given this job.... :oops:


Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:13 pm
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Gidean wrote:
I sure wish Mr. Ward had a degree in English Writing before he was given this job.... :oops:


These days, grammar is not not part of the coursework for a degree in English (at least in the U.S.). You would be appalled to see how poorly manyEnglish major write.

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