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WE with flaming attacks and dragonbane gem 
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Trainee Warrior
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Hi everyone,
I don't know if this question has been raised before but... does a sorceress with the dragonbane gem in a unit of witch elves with the flaming banner benefit from his 2++ save against the S3 hits caused by the witches special rule?

Thanks!

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Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:08 pm
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Killed by Khorne
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lol that's a good one!

I will leave answering your question to the lawyers amongst us :mrgreen:

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Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:16 pm
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Highborn
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T.D. wrote:
lol that's a good one!

I will leave answering your question to the lawyers amongst us :mrgreen:


Technically the witch elves aren't attacking per, you just happen to get hits on you.

Tbh it can be judged either way.

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Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:19 pm
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Dragon Lord
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Strictly speaking the witch elves are not attacking the character, they just happen to receive d6 S3 hits with no special rules.

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Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:18 am
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Corsair
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Come on!
Even if the word 'attack' is not explicitely written, 'hits' are explicit.

FAQ
Q: When hits, other than from shooting and close combat attacks, are
inflicted upon a unit how are these hits resolved? (p42)
A: As per the ‘Resolving Unusual Attacks’ box. Note that all
hits resolved in this way will count as shooting attacks for
working out who is hit.


The D6 S3 'unusual attack' with no special rule would become flaming, thanks to the flaming banner, and the gem would allow the 2++ ward save.

Good spot!

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Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:22 am
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Trainee Warrior
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Thanks for your answers!

The rules itself say (in a fluffish sentence) that those hits are caused by the witches attacking the character. Anyway, Calisson's explanation seems legit to me! We finally have a way to put a sorceress in a WE unit without getting her killed in 1-2 turns!

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Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:11 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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This would also imply that a banner with armor piercing would wreck the armor of a master/dreadlord in the unit. Good to know.

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Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:25 am
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Dragon Lord
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Then it also has to benefit from murderous prowess (but not poison since it's auto hits)

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Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:09 pm
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With rerolls on the wound from Strength of Khaine if it's in a COB unit.

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Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:29 pm
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Lol, brilliant idea! :D

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Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:14 pm
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Calisson wrote:
FAQ
Q: When hits, other than from shooting and close combat attacks, are
inflicted upon a unit ...


Why do you think a FAQ regarding hits upon a unit affects hits upon a character in a unit?

In the madness of Khaine description, there is nothing such as "the character is subject to D6 attacks"; he just receives D6 S3 hits. The part about witch elves turning on him is just a fluff explanation, not a rule. Besides, flaming banner gives the "flaming attacks" rule to attacks, not hits.

If it was the way you claim the situation would be extremely chaotic, with the neccessity to adjust for CoB, banners, flaming sword of ruin, wyssans wildform and who knows what else.

More importantly, if it was resolved as shooting the character could not be hit at all if there were at least five rank and file models.

And finally, another point of view: if a unit is pushed away by a wind blast (lore of heavens) it can under some conditions suffer D6 S3 hits. Do you really think those hits would benefit from banners and cauldrons, too? If not, where lies the important difference between the wording of wind blast and madness of khaine?

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Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:38 am
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Let me illustrate the discussion with a GW ruling made for The Empire.
Q: If a Witch Hunter is equipped with a magic item such as the
Ring of Volans or the Ruby Ring of Ruin, will any bound spell
efects/magic missiles retain the Killing Blow special rule against
the target of the Witch Hunter’s Accusation rule? (p37)
A: Yes.

The WH has KB for hits targeted against a single enemy character, and the rule specifies "all hits including shooting" (which is unusual for KB).
With that ruling, we can see that spells are in no way immune to special rules affecting "all" attacks.

Marchosias wrote:
where lies the important difference between the wording of wind blast and madness of khaine?
The wind blast would benefit indeed from all magic properties bestowed by magic items, banners and cauldron.

It just happens that all banners exclude explicitely spells, otherwise spells would be affected.
Reverse example: Banner of Eternel Flame says that models have Flaming Attacks, however, Flaming Attacks p.69 specify it applies to shooting & close combat, and explicitely not to spells.
Razor standard gives AP, which is limited to close combat by default.

Strength of Khaine was FAQed by D.net not to apply to spells, but that's because we limited SoK to attacks already benefitting from MP. With a more RAW ruling, wind blast would have benefitted from SoK.

-=-=-

This said, I brought up that FAQ about unusual attacks just to mention that "hits, other than from shooting and close combat attacks", were still "attacks", albeit "unusual" ones.
I did not mean to use that FAQ to resolve the attack, which is entirely resolved on the character inside the unit, there's no dispute on that.
I might have been more clear on my intentions, sorry.

-=-=-

When you say "The part about witch elves turning on him is just a fluff explanation, not a rule.", unfortunately, that's not the case.
Everything in the BRB between p.1 and p.150 is rule (that's the title of that part). Most of the References p.479-512 are about rules, too. The battle section p.381 to 478 is made with more rules, all optional (as mentions p.482).
Fluff is p.153 to 269.

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Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:46 am
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OK, I will try to be more precise - though it would be better if someone with a better knowledge of the rules would come to my help. :D

It seems the difference between our views is that you understand the attacks described in "Madness of Khaine" as attacks made by witch elves which are then logically subject to all the special rules that could be on the witches at the moment; while I feel it is just an effect unrelated to the actual state of the unit. I hope this summary is correct.

Unless I have missed something (which is very well possible) your main support is the following formulation: "the character suffers D6 S3 as the Witch Elves lose all control and turn on their ally". Not everything in this section of the book is a rule, however. A "rule" is a statement that tells you what to do under some conditions. The bracket in the Madness of Khaine explanation is a good example: "Do not roll for Khainite Assassins" is a rule, no doubt; but "they have learnt how to survive in such company" is not as this says nothing about the game flow at all. It only says how the author has come to this particular rule. It makes easier to remember the actual rule as it shows the logic behind it. But it is not a rule itself.
Now I understand that drawing the line between rules end explanations might be difficult in some cases and that you could probably say even the things I call explanations are actually rules with no effect. I just want to explain why I want to look for other support beside this particular sentence.

The reason I do not think this D6 S3 attacks are actually witch elves attack is that they work completely differently. They happen outside of the phase in which normal atacks are resolved, they do not depend on the number of models in base contact, their strength is set with no allowance for modifiers such as wildform or enfeebling. I see more resemblance with the attack of a wildwood terrain type than with anything a fighting model would do.

I admit, however, that what I have written is mostly based on feeling, not a rock-hard rules analysis.

As a side note, do breath weapons or thunderstomps benefit from special rules, for example? And could we find analogy with something like animosity?

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Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:50 pm
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Dragon Lord
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And I fully support Marchosias' side.

The attacks are never made specifically by witch elves. If you want, they appear out of nowhere and do d6 S3 hits (specific number of hits, specified strength)

Would you make them affected by Wildform? Word of Pain? any other S modifying spell? I don't think you would. Flaming attacks would be along the same lines.

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Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:31 pm
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@ Marchosias, there is no hard limit between sentences that are certainly rules and sentences that are certainly fluff, as most of the time the so-called fluff tells the intention, and rules are supposed to reflect intention.
It is not like chess for which towers can move and bishops run further than knights, because rules say so.
In WHFB, rules come often for a fluff reason, and fluff is part of the rule.

Contrary to what Dalamar writes, these hits do NOT appear from nowhere, where they come from is written in the rule (the so-called fluff).

@ Marchosias, breath weapons and stomp have been FAQed expressely not to benefit from any special rule. That's the kind of FAQ which is actually an erratum in disguise, and tells what the author had in mind rather than what he wrote.


If I may summarize the two points of view, the starting divergence is the status of the sentence "the Witch Elves lose all control and turn on their ally".
Is it just fluff that can be ignored, or is it what highlights RAI?
Both arguments are receivable.

A- Madness of Khaine is an effect, not an actual attack. As such, it cannot be modified by any special rule.

B- Madness of Khaine is an Unusual attack. As such, it benefits from any modifier that would apply to the WE unit.

Both can be argued for as being RAW.
A is much simple. B is more creative and fun.
Anyway, whatever the ruling we decide, that's a new item on the next edition of our FAQ.

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Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:53 pm
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Dragon Lord
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It can't be an attack because it's not called that in the rule.

Witch Elves' WS, A, or any special rules are not used.

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Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:34 pm
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