crossbows firing on first turn - can they?

[toots]

i get the first go, and if the two armies set up with a 24" gap between the units, are the xbowmen of mine able to shoot their units on the first turn? because there will be a bang-on 24" distance between the two units, probably.

i'm sure this is a common question!


thanks,

james

[Liquidedust]

i get the first go, and if the two armies set up with a 24" gap between the units, are the xbowmen of mine able to shoot their units on the first turn? because there will be a bang-on 24" distance between the two units, probably.

i'm sure this is a common question!


thanks,

james

Not unless you move, since you are 24" apart you are outside your rxb 24" range.

[Dyvim tvar]

I disagree. The range is out to 24" and an enemy 24" away is at but not beyond the edge of range.

This is the reason why I always deploy 1/4" back from the line if facing an enemy with 24" shooting range.

[Liquidedust]

I disagree. The range is out to 24" and an enemy 24" away is at but not beyond the edge of range.

This is the reason why I always deploy 1/4" back from the line if facing an enemy with 24" shooting range.

That doesn't really make sense though. If there is 24" between you a 24" range wont ever reach since it -is- 24" between you. This is also the main reason for hellblaster deploying sideways for example and then pivoting in their first turn (to be within 24", since they would otherwise be not).


If there is 24" between you, you are not within 24" of the enemy.

[van Awful]

If there is 24" between you, you are not within 24" of the enemy

+1
this seems the only logical answer to me!

[Daeron]

I would interpret bang-on 24" as within range, but check for each model as any model that needs a slightly angled shot is out of range.
Other examples of having the distance means it's valid:
- Charges. If it's bang-on 10" you need and your charge distance is 10", then the charge is successful.
- Template weapons: touching the model is within range/under the template

But gameplay wise, using such precise measurements can raise discussions. Furthermore, I'm not sure it's a smart tactic deployment wise. The only reason an enemy will deploy on the line of his deployment if either he has a 24" range gunner unit or it's an offensive combat unit that he wants to move forwards. In both cases, it would be smart to place your unit 1 to 4 inches behind the maximum line. This forces him to move his gunners should he get turn 1 and reduce the incoming damage for you. If you get to start, you lose some firepower... true... but it's safer and with T3 elves it's usually worth it.

Long story short: I have rarely been in this position, have mostly had good reason to avoid it and would recommend avoiding the need for playing it so tight. But if it happens, then I (and my club) considered a precise 24" as within range.

[Amboadine]

The range is stated as it can hit targets 24" away. If you are deployed exactly 24" away why would you not be able to target.
This is the maximum range, I don’t believe the rules state that the maximum range cannot be achieved, unless I missed something.
Would you disallow a 24" shot in further rounds?
The easiest way is to deploy further back, but then what about 36" shots, same scenario really?

[Liquidedust]

The range is stated as it can hit targets 24" away. If you are deployed exactly 24" away why would you not be able to target.
This is the maximum range, I don’t believe the rules state that the maximum range cannot be achieved, unless I missed something.
Would you disallow a 24" shot in further rounds?
The easiest way is to deploy further back, but then what about 36" shots, same scenario really?

You are not 24" away, there are 24" between you which means you are not at or within 24" of eachother. Yes you can trace a line that is exactly 24" between you bases but that is also it, it starts at the edge of your base and ends at the edge your opponents base.

E.g. it is physically and mathematically impossible for that line to overlap or touch either base if deployed exactly 24" apart, therefore if this is the case (both of you deployed on the line) it is impossible for you to be within range if your max range is 24".

[Daeron]

E.g. it is physically and mathematically impossible for that line to overlap or touch either base if deployed exactly 24" apart, therefore if this is the case (both of you deployed on the line) it is impossible for you to be within range if your max range is 24".

Oh, but now.. this I love as an argument. You are permitted to round it up a little as is proven by the following series of equations:

X = 0.9999999999....
10 * X = 9.99999999.....
10 * X - X = 9.999999999.... - 0.9999999999....
9* X = 9
X = 1
More info on wiki

So if the range required is 23.9999999....inch ...

[Amboadine]

What do the deployment rules state exactly? Haven't got the book with me.
Is it the units must be deployed at least 24" apart or more than 24" apart?

[Dyvim tvar]

Standard battleline scenario diagram shows the deployment line for each side as 12" away from the center line.

Honestly, if this is an issue, just be a good sport and tell your opponent that if he wants to make you move to shoot, that he should deploy a fraction of an inch back from the edge of his deployment zone.

[Liquidedust]

E.g. it is physically and mathematically impossible for that line to overlap or touch either base if deployed exactly 24" apart, therefore if this is the case (both of you deployed on the line) it is impossible for you to be within range if your max range is 24".

Oh, but now.. this I love as an argument. You are permitted to round it up a little as is proven by the following series of equations:

X = 0.9999999999....
10 * X = 9.99999999.....
10 * X - X = 9.999999999.... - 0.9999999999....
9* X = 9
X = 1
More info on wiki

So if the range required is 23.9999999....inch ...

Think of it likes this if you want to go into mathematics and physics.

A 24" rod fits between you units, this 24" rod also represent your range. Since it fits between you units you cannot be within range with a 24" weapon this since the rod actually do, you know, fits in between your units.

and 0.999... repeating is not what explains this, since we know its 24" between the units therefore I could be able to fit a 24" object in between those units. And since my range is 24" (virtual object) it should fit in between the units but not be able to reach or overlap either of them.

Therefore you cannot be within range.

[Daeron]

A 24" rod fits between you units, this 24" rod also represent your range. Since it fits between you units you cannot be within range with a 24" weapon this since the rod actually do, you know, fits in between your units.

If the rod touches both units, it's within range according to my interpretation of the rules. It's how it works with templates, charging, entering buildings etc. "Touch" = "Go".

and 0.999... repeating is not what explains this

Of course not, but it was a fun argument to bring up

Admitted, I'm not a fan of this kind point precision gaming. Like Dyvim suggested, strike an agreement at deployment or move them to a position where the ruling is clearer.

[Dyvim tvar]

[If the rod touches both units, it's within range according to my interpretation of the rules. It's how it works with templates, charging, entering buildings etc. "Touch" = "Go".

Exactly.

[Gidean]

I have never seen such an argument in my 25 years of playing Warhammer as the one going on here in this thread. You measure from your base. Not your movement tray. If 24 inches from your base 'touches' the enemies base that model may fire a repeater crossbow. Sheesh. If it is 24 and 1/8 then no.

[Liquidedust]

A 24" rod fits between you units, this 24" rod also represent your range. Since it fits between you units you cannot be within range with a 24" weapon this since the rod actually do, you know, fits in between your units.

If the rod touches both units, it's within range according to my interpretation of the rules. It's how it works with templates, charging, entering buildings etc. "Touch" = "Go".

and 0.999... repeating is not what explains this

Of course not, but it was a fun argument to bring up

Admitted, I'm not a fan of this kind point precision gaming. Like Dyvim suggested, strike an agreement at deployment or move them to a position where the ruling is clearer.

But if the rod is exactly 24" and its exactly 24" between the units the rod doesn't actually touch either unit . . . . . Hence why it fits in between them. And since you deplay 24" apart the rod will always fit in between but not be able to reach either one of them.

If it fits in between it doesn't actually touch either unit. This is how you know mathematics and physics function , which sorta dictactes the world

[Dyvim tvar]

If it fits in between it doesn't actually touch either unit. This is how you know mathematics and physics function , which sorta dictactes the world

In both mathematics and the real world you can have a line segment that both fits between and touches two points.

[Daeron]

I must confess I'm surprised to find 24" being up for debate as not being 24".

If it fits in between it doesn't actually touch either unit. This is how you know mathematics and physics function , which sorta dictactes the world

Maybe I'm missing the theory of physics or maths you are referring to then. Please, by all means, feel free to point me at the scientific or mathematical principle you're referring to. I can probably handle it

The only way I see you can justify this mathematically is by using exclusive intervals:
- [backofunitA, deploymentlineA [
- [deploymentlineA, deploymentlineB]
- ] deplormentline B, backofunitB]
But this assumes you can not deploy "on" the deployment line, but deploy "up to" infinitely close it.

But I think it's more... well.. natural.. to assume:
- [backofunitA, deploymentlineA]
- [deploymentlineA, deploymentlineB]
- [deploymentlineB, backofunitB]

Physics don't dictate the world. The world dictates physics. Keep in mind some practicality here. If I put a 5mm screw in a 5mm plug hole, it fits pretty damn tight if you ask me. Enough to keep my curtains up anyhow.

If you permit me a science joke (and I pray it isn't ill recieved): a mathematician and an engineer partake in an experiment. They are put in a room with their backs against a wall and opposite from them sits a woman, naked in bed. Every minute, they are permitted to cross half the distance between them and the woman. The mathematician storms out, infuriated and tells the engineer "You'll never reach her" but the engineer laughs and continues "It'll be close enough for all practical purposes."

[Daeron]

Well... before discussing if 24" really is 24"... it seems the rules offer more clarity on the situation:

Battle 1 - Battleline
Deployment - ... "Units may be placed anywhere in their deployment zone that is more than 12" from the center line"
=> You can not be within 24"

Battle 2 - Dawn Attack
Deployment Table (1, 2, 3-5, 6) - ... "more than 12" from the center line"
=> You can not be within 24"

Battle 3 - Battle for the Pass
Deployment - ... "Units may be placed anywhere in their half that is more than 12" from the center line"
=> You can not be within 24"

Battle 4 - Blood and Glory
Deployment - ... "anywhere half that is more than 9" from the center line"
=> You can be within 24"

Battle 5 - Meeting Engagement
Deployment - ... "anywhere that is more than 6" from the center line"
=> You can be within 24"

Battle 6 - The Watchtower
Deployment - ... "anywhere in their half that is more than 12" from the center line"
=> You can not be within 24"


So the question isn't "what is 24 inch?" but what are the deployment rules for each scenario?

[Dyvim tvar]

So the question isn't "what is 24 inch?" but what are the deployment rules for each scenario?

Good point--I should have read the scenarios instead of just looking at the diagrams. I accede to your logic.

[toots]

wow I started a good topic here didn't I?!

i think i have to agree with... liqiudedust? in that the units should be within 24". at 24" away exactly is far too tight. i'd probably say they should deploy 1/4" back just to make it all good. and then i'd have to move forward half an inch if i get the first turn etc. double shots w/ xbowmen would be 6+ to hit. whatevs, better than nothing.

anyway, glad i got you thinking!


cheers,

james

[Vulcan]

In all my years of playing WFB that's the first time anyone's every brought that up.

So I suppose then that when our units both move up 8" that first turn, we're still 8.0000000000000000000000000002 inches apart and whoever's charging needs to make it 9" to successfully charge, yes?

Or can we just continue to agree that the .0000000000000000000000000001" we're deployed back from the starting line is negligible in the interests of playing the game?

[Setomidor]

I have never seen such an argument in my 25 years of playing Warhammer as the one going on here in this thread.

I have, I pulled this of when I was 13 by deploying EXACTLY 18" away from the enemy with my Tiranoc Chariots, and then charge him first turn. I'm still slightly ashamed of that to be honest, even though it was 17 years ago.

[Amboadine]

I think really it comes down to common sense. This game was never designed to be accurate to the millionth of an inch. Hell even the bases are not always perfectly straight or even the exact measurements they are meant to be. There is a tolerance.
If you have a brass rod that is 24" and touches both units, take the shot, same as you would charge.
As Daeron described earlier only a couple of scenarios would even let this occur the rest say 'more than 12" away'.
As long as both sides are using the same standard, there is no need for further confusing, there is already enough dubiously written rules in the game.

[toots]

well, I believe this is the answer from page 6 of the rulebook:

The distance between the Empire Spearman unit and the Goblins is 6". We therefore say that the Goblins are within 6".
The distance between the Empire Spearman unit and the Wyvern is 3". We therefore say that the Wyvern is within 3".

So basically if there's 24" between the units on the first turn, your enemy is buggered slightly. Although only for the first game you play, because after that they should have the sense to deploy their models back half an inch!

Cheers!