The Dreaded Thirteenth

[CreativeName]

If my witch elf unit has a cauldron in it does this make them immune to the Dreaded Thirteenth due to the fact that the cauldron isn't a character and the Skaven FAQ states the following:

Q: Can I target a unit with The Curse of the Horned Rat comprised of infantry and non-infantry models? (p79)
A: No, unless all of the non-infantry models are characters. Such units are unique units and as such cannot be targeted by The Curse of the Horned Rat. Note that adding a character to a unit of a different troop type will not make that unit unique, it’s troop type will be unchanged.

Or is the CoB just part of the character's war gear and so is ignored thereby allowing the unit to be targeted? If it is targetable does the CoB bite the dust if the Skaven player rolls high enough? Thanks!

[Silentdan]

from what I have seen around this forum the hag needs to be dead for the unit to be considered unique.

[Dalamar]

Neither. The unit is still infantry with a chariot type character joining it (even when the death hag is dead)

[CreativeName]

I didn't know mounts adopted a character type so I was confused by your answer Dalamar in the context of my question. But after reading between the lines, I went into the Book and see that on page 104:

A character and his mount are treated as a single character model for all rules purposes.....

Then I read page 105:

.....the whole model is treated as having the troop type 'chariot' and follows all the rules for both characters and chariots.

SO in the end I see the CoB is a character for all intents and purposes and that the exception in the FAQ I posted puts me in the fair game column when it comes to that spell.

But reading this made me also realize that I guess this also means that the cauldron can except and issue challenges even without the Death Hag since it is "treated as a single character model for all rules purposes" and it "follows all the rules for both characters and chariots".

Thanks for the direction.

[Calisson]

I guess this also means that the cauldron can except and issue challenges even without the Death Hag since it is "treated as a single character model for all rules purposes" and it "follows all the rules for both characters and chariots".

No.
Read AB p.47, Will of Gods, sentence between brackets tells that besides being able to join a unit, the chariot is not treated like a character.

[CreativeName]

Ok, so it's a non-character character? I'm unclear on the final outcome, I know I'm missing out on a key point so spell it out for me please. If the CoB is not treated as a character except for joining and leaving units, contrary to the rules on 104 and 105, then wouldn't that make it a non-infantry, non-character model in a unit of infantry models therefore making the whole unit a non-valid target?

Q: Can I target a unit with The Curse of the Horned Rat comprised of infantry and non-infantry models? (p79)
A: No, unless all of the non-infantry models are characters. Such units are unique units and as such cannot be targeted by The Curse of the Horned Rat. Note that adding a character to a unit of a different troop type will not make that unit unique, it’s troop type will be unchanged.

Is this just one of those things I work out with my opponent before the game starts or is there a lynchpin to the whole thing I am missing?

[Thraundil]

The cauldron joins the unit as a character. So its a character in a unit. So the unit can be targeted by the spell, in my opinion. Just as joining a cauldron into a WE unit does NOT make them immune to stomps and shizzle.

[Calisson]

Well, not everything has been Q&Aed.
Here, the intent is sufficiently clear that an infantry unit joined by characters remains eligible for the spell; a reasonable Druchii player would not argue that the COB allows an infantry unit to become exempt.
Now, if you face a real rules lawyer, that's another story!

[Taijushue]

The way I see it:

CoB with Hag - not immune as a character mount falls into the character clause in the 13th
CoB w/o Hag - Immune, no longer part of a character
Shrine - Immune, never was part of a character

@Thraundil - I am at work or I would look this up myself, does the rules for stomp say that a mixed unit can be stomps or just that characters dont stop stomps, if the later the same thoughts could be applied as the 13th.

If stating the above about the 13th and Cauldron was not enough to convince my opponent I would just allow it, since it could be argued that because it is a mount for the character and cannot be purchased alone that it would still follow the rules for a character mount. but the Shrine I would put up a bigger fight since it was never part of a character choice.

[CreativeName]

Well I'm a sucker for intent so I'll let the Skaven player know he's free to target the CoB. That seems like the simplest solution. I'd take the middle road as Taijushue suggests but it's a little too clunky. Though I think the intent is clear for the Skaven to be able to target infantry units despite the fact they joined it with a mounted character, I do believe that since for all intents that since the Shrine would make a unit immune and the fact of the rules de-characterizing the chariot itself, that the CoB making it immune isn't a reach as it works on the exact same mechanic as the Shrine. It just so happens the Death Hag rather ride on top of one but simple is best. Thanks for all the different perspectives and the resolution.

[Calisson]

Please please please!
In friendly games, you should play Rules As Intended. It seems obvious to me that Shrine and CoB should not make a unit of infantry immune to 13th, because they can only join this unit as if they were characters.
In WAACK games or against rules lawyers, clearly the shrine and the COB after DH being killed are not characters and RAW, the FAQ does not apply. But please, only for this kind of spirit with a total lack of sportsmanship!

[Dalamar]

Calisson, we went through this when we were writing the FAQ.

Neither CoB nor Shrine at any stage will make a unit of infantry a "unique" unit.
They both follow the rules for characters joining units.

When a character of a different troop type joins a unit, their status as their original troop type *does not change*

No, neither Shrine nor the Cauldron are characters, but they *follow the rules for characters joining units as described on page 99 of the BRB*

[Dyvim tvar]

Dalamar has it right IMO.

[dms505]

Please please please!
In friendly games, you should play Rules As Intended. It seems obvious to me that Shrine and CoB should not make a unit of infantry immune to 13th, because they can only join this unit as if they were characters.
In WAACK games or against rules lawyers, clearly the shrine and the COB after DH being killed are not characters and RAW, the FAQ does not apply. But please, only for this kind of spirit with a total lack of sportsmanship!

I'm sorry. . Are you suggesting that "Read as Intended" and "In the spirit of the game" they should be able to turn a chariot into a rat? AT the LEAST "In the spirit of the game" would be to allow it to hit the humanoid models but have no effect on the chariot. The same goofiness is in effect on war machine crews and stomps.

I also think there is a separation between using the rules of characters JOINING a unit, and using all the rules for a character THAT HAS JOINED a unit. It's obvious in the Will of the Gods rules that after joining the unit, the cauldron itself doesn't have the rules for a character unless it's being ridden. So, silly or not, once the hag dies the cauldron is just a chariot in a unit, making the unit an invalid target.

[Calisson]

"In the spirit of the game" would be to allow it to hit the humanoid models but have no effect on the chariot.

Exactly what I think RAI is.

once the hag dies the cauldron is just a chariot in a unit, making the unit an invalid target.

That's RAW, but I think it is not RAI.