Ok so my poll is tied for two things:
1. Option for eternal hatred, hatred every round instead of beginning of combat. This way the BG would be more survivable in long combat (which its the only DE unit made for that kind of thing) because what they kill doesn't hit back! Its fluffy too and would make it a respected unit.
2. Option for some special armour that gives 4+ AS.
A far behind option was to make them 15 points as is.
I think we need to address the blackguard seriously. Also a banner that is worth 75 points and allows a 4+ ward save vs missiles, and a (1) magic resistance is not unprecedented for other armies, and also would address the blackguard's weakness to missiles, in a better way.
RARE: Black Guard
Moderator: The Dread Knights
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Langmann
- Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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RARE: Black Guard
While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."
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Imdat tauble
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Langmann
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Its something I can see as extremely fluffy, it was already fluffy as hatred of everything! But since hatred only works once in combat, it kind of opposes the real point of blackguard, to hold up the battleline.
However pheonix guard are 15 points and are basically similar to us, except we get stubborn and they get fear. Then for one point extra we get hated. GW may have issues with us adding something to make BG better. I don't know...
Right now most people think they are not worth 16 points.
However pheonix guard are 15 points and are basically similar to us, except we get stubborn and they get fear. Then for one point extra we get hated. GW may have issues with us adding something to make BG better. I don't know...
Right now most people think they are not worth 16 points.
While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."
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Imdat tauble
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Rare choice is a problem, but cannot be overcome, as they can't be anything but rare.
Eternal Hatred would be fine by me (but would it make them a better choice actually!?), altho 15 points would be another viable and easy change.
About the Banners: Hydra Banner 75 pts would allow them to use it. Dread Banner 50 pts would make it a much more viable choice (also for units like Executioners). A protective Banner (some Ward save against shooting) would be good for this and other units (Witches, Executioners). However, this discussion belongs elsewhere!
Bye
Thanee
Eternal Hatred would be fine by me (but would it make them a better choice actually!?), altho 15 points would be another viable and easy change.
About the Banners: Hydra Banner 75 pts would allow them to use it. Dread Banner 50 pts would make it a much more viable choice (also for units like Executioners). A protective Banner (some Ward save against shooting) would be good for this and other units (Witches, Executioners). However, this discussion belongs elsewhere!
Bye
Thanee
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Metallurgist
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I don't think either option is the solution. I'd still not take it.
Add eternal hatred and make them 15pts, or leave them as is and make them 14pts. Then you'll see Black Guard used. If it has to be either eternal hatred or 15pts, I'd definitely choose the cheaper (but still overpriced) version.
Langmann: most people agree that Phoenix Guard are horrible, so don't compare to them.
-Metallurgist
Add eternal hatred and make them 15pts, or leave them as is and make them 14pts. Then you'll see Black Guard used. If it has to be either eternal hatred or 15pts, I'd definitely choose the cheaper (but still overpriced) version.
Langmann: most people agree that Phoenix Guard are horrible, so don't compare to them.
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Langmann
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Well at S4 they can do some damage to most things, So if they had a good chance of hitting along frontage then they would be much more survivable.
Lets see right now they have at the best of times 0.67 chance of hitting.
5 frontage (with champ) thats equal to 4 hits per turn.
With eternal hated its a total of 6 hits per turn, everyone hits, now they just gotta wound. Against T3 its 2.68 wounds vs 4.02 wounds. Against T4 its 2 vs 3 wounds.
Its now a rather scary unit with these changes, IMHO. And it kind of plays on what elves are supposed to be good at, hitting well, and if they fail to do it then they are wimps when the enemy hits back.
It would be a guard fitting for Malekith...
Lets see right now they have at the best of times 0.67 chance of hitting.
5 frontage (with champ) thats equal to 4 hits per turn.
With eternal hated its a total of 6 hits per turn, everyone hits, now they just gotta wound. Against T3 its 2.68 wounds vs 4.02 wounds. Against T4 its 2 vs 3 wounds.
Its now a rather scary unit with these changes, IMHO. And it kind of plays on what elves are supposed to be good at, hitting well, and if they fail to do it then they are wimps when the enemy hits back.
It would be a guard fitting for Malekith...
While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."
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Langmann
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Alright so I assembled some lovely people who were very kind enough to allow me to test the blackguard in 1000 point games against them with the exception of the blackguard having eternal hatred.
This means the black guard hate everyone all the time, in every round of combat not just in the first round of combat.
First some preliminary stats:
Well the blackguard cost 16 points and for that, IMHO they should do fairly well against similarily costed units but not so well that they always win because stubborn should cost something as well.
First I tried chaos as they have the best infantry available in HtH.
Chaos Knights.
Blackguard do 0.62 wounds, Knights 2.52 wounds. This is fair, the knights should demolish the blackguard since they cost 33 points.
Chaos warriors hand weapon
BG 1.59 wounds, Chaos warriors 0.94 wounds. This is fair IMHO, the chaos warriors cost 14 points, and they can have more than one unit. BG are restricted to 0-1 unit.
Chaos warriors with great weapon
BG 1.59 wounds, chaos 1.43 wounds. The chaos cost 16 points. BG still restricted to one unit and with hatred they must pursue thus can be baited into all kinds of bad places.
Chaos warriors with hand weapon and shield.
BG 0.90 wounds, Chaos 1.14 wounds. The chaos cost 15 points. Blackguard have stubborn. Its fair IMHO, and also demonstrates that a cheaper unit of chaos can beat the BG.
Chaos warriors with chosen.
BG 1.23 wounds. Chaos do 2.06 wounds. Chaos cost 20 points. Its fair.
Black Orcs 2 hand weapon, heavy armour
BG do 1.83 wounds, Black orcs do 1.75 wounds. Black Orcs cost 10 points. BG is stubborn, both are 0-1 units. Favour black orcs a little price wise but BG win combat.
Big Uns with Choppa and shield light armour.
BG do 1.84 wounds, Big Uns do 0.82 wounds. Big Uns cost 8 points. This is fair IMHO.
Now on to the games.
My opponents were very surprised with the function of the black guard. For once they had to plan flank attacks against a single elf unit in order to definately win without getting run off. They began to get smart and utilized the BG hatred and put the black guard into positions where they had to pursue into all kinds of traps. Chaos Cavalry also demolished the 15 strong unit of BG after 5 turns on average.
All of them felt that for 16 points this unit was definately acceptable. It was tough, and they began to fear and respect it like it should be since it became a sinkhole and could run off most attacks. It was no longer a unit that just was there to die a slow death into oblivion.
After a while they also began to destroy it with magic and missile fire.
However all players felt that the BG at that cost and in this way was acceptable, fun, extremely fluffy, vulnerable to smart players due to the "hatred must pursue" rule, a unit worth taking into battle, and as one player said simply, "That is how I'd expect elite elves to be, quick, deadly, fearless, and frail."
This means the black guard hate everyone all the time, in every round of combat not just in the first round of combat.
First some preliminary stats:
Well the blackguard cost 16 points and for that, IMHO they should do fairly well against similarily costed units but not so well that they always win because stubborn should cost something as well.
First I tried chaos as they have the best infantry available in HtH.
Chaos Knights.
Blackguard do 0.62 wounds, Knights 2.52 wounds. This is fair, the knights should demolish the blackguard since they cost 33 points.
Chaos warriors hand weapon
BG 1.59 wounds, Chaos warriors 0.94 wounds. This is fair IMHO, the chaos warriors cost 14 points, and they can have more than one unit. BG are restricted to 0-1 unit.
Chaos warriors with great weapon
BG 1.59 wounds, chaos 1.43 wounds. The chaos cost 16 points. BG still restricted to one unit and with hatred they must pursue thus can be baited into all kinds of bad places.
Chaos warriors with hand weapon and shield.
BG 0.90 wounds, Chaos 1.14 wounds. The chaos cost 15 points. Blackguard have stubborn. Its fair IMHO, and also demonstrates that a cheaper unit of chaos can beat the BG.
Chaos warriors with chosen.
BG 1.23 wounds. Chaos do 2.06 wounds. Chaos cost 20 points. Its fair.
Black Orcs 2 hand weapon, heavy armour
BG do 1.83 wounds, Black orcs do 1.75 wounds. Black Orcs cost 10 points. BG is stubborn, both are 0-1 units. Favour black orcs a little price wise but BG win combat.
Big Uns with Choppa and shield light armour.
BG do 1.84 wounds, Big Uns do 0.82 wounds. Big Uns cost 8 points. This is fair IMHO.
Now on to the games.
My opponents were very surprised with the function of the black guard. For once they had to plan flank attacks against a single elf unit in order to definately win without getting run off. They began to get smart and utilized the BG hatred and put the black guard into positions where they had to pursue into all kinds of traps. Chaos Cavalry also demolished the 15 strong unit of BG after 5 turns on average.
All of them felt that for 16 points this unit was definately acceptable. It was tough, and they began to fear and respect it like it should be since it became a sinkhole and could run off most attacks. It was no longer a unit that just was there to die a slow death into oblivion.
After a while they also began to destroy it with magic and missile fire.
However all players felt that the BG at that cost and in this way was acceptable, fun, extremely fluffy, vulnerable to smart players due to the "hatred must pursue" rule, a unit worth taking into battle, and as one player said simply, "That is how I'd expect elite elves to be, quick, deadly, fearless, and frail."
While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."
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Inquisitor black
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Once again, well done on your application concerning the Black Guard and eternal hatred Langmann, good work! 
I think eternal hatred is the way to go and should be outlined as our "preferable" option in the petition. Its characterful, fluffy, and reasonable.
But, we should incude some other proposals.
These are a couple.
1. Poitns reduction to 14 points. Stay as they are.
2. Given full plate armour. Points stay the same.
I think eternal hatred is the way to go and should be outlined as our "preferable" option in the petition. Its characterful, fluffy, and reasonable.
But, we should incude some other proposals.
These are a couple.
1. Poitns reduction to 14 points. Stay as they are.
2. Given full plate armour. Points stay the same.
Be not afraid of the dark, but of what the dark hides.