A constructive approach (Step 1: brainstorming)

[Thanee]

How about we start by making a list of units, items, or generally things that lack and need addressing?

Just write down whatever you feel needs addressing and best value the importance with categories (I - high priority (absolutely unavoidable), II - moderate priority (not completely important to fix the list, but still a major improvement), and III - low priority (would be nice, would fit the fluff, but it wouldn't hurt to leave this out)).

What do you think about this as a first step to get to a more common view?

Bye
Thanee

[Thanee]

For starters, some rough ideas by me:

I - Magic Items revisited
I - Temple of Khaine revisited
I - more useful Enchanted Items and Banners added
I - Beastmaster revisited
I - Cold One (Knights) Stupidity addressed
I - Cauldron of Blood revisited
I - BS+1 champions cost halved
I - Word of Pain becomes castable into close combat
II - City Guard revisited and reincluded
II - Assassin revisited
II - Executioners get Heavy Armour
II - Black Guard revisited
II - Dark Elf Warriors revisited
II - War Hydra Apprentices M+1
III - War Hydra Breath Weapon revisited
III - Hag Queen character included
III - City-based Appendix lists included
III - Special Characters revisited

Bye
Thanee

[Dark Alliance]

Ok I like this, good first step.

[Langmann]

Definately agree with your assessment, but think cityguard should be I, because they really are already done. All GW has to do is say they're regular core.

[Thanee]

I don't think City Guard as in the Garrison list should be included, because they are simply superior to Spearmen. I still think they should be +1 point, because of the better formation rules (and the resulting better armour save in close combat).

I have only listed stuff as category I, which I think really, really has to be done (City Guard would be great, but doesn't fall into that "most important" category IMHO).

There are also a lot of ideas missing still, like a skill system for fluffy characters and the torturous/cruelty rule...

Bye
Thanee

[Dark Alliance]

I'll add to it over the weekend after I've had chance to look at my notes

[Langmann]

I don't think City Guard as in the Garrison list should be included, because they are simply superior to Spearmen. I still think they should be +1 point, because of the better formation rules (and the resulting better armour save in close combat).

I have only listed stuff as category I, which I think really, really has to be done (City Guard would be great, but doesn't fall into that "most important" category IMHO).

There are also a lot of ideas missing still, like a skill system for fluffy characters and the torturous/cruelty rule...

Bye
Thanee

Normally I would agree with +1 point, but GW has done themselves in on that one, by making it cheaper, thus it may get confusing to people. Since we both think spears + shield should be 9 points we could put both in the petition. However, I think Gav has realized that cityguard are viable. Yes they have a better save then spearmen, but I think that Gav is actually realizing that they are the only viable alternative to corsairs we have, and are not overpowered.

However Thanee, I would agree to 11 points for cityguard with shields in our petition. I think they may be overpriced that way, but I really think its a priority since:

-they're the only plastic regiment we have and the way they are as spears is useless.
-people really want them (my poll filled up fast, and druchii I poll at the GW shops want them badly).
-rules are already done and approved by GW. All we need to do is ask for them as regulars.

[Thanee]

However, I think Gav has realized that cityguard are viable. Yes they have a better save then spearmen, but I think that Gav is actually realizing that they are the only viable alternative to corsairs we have, and are not overpowered.

I don't think so, otherwise they would make it available for regular armies.

Therefore I think it needs to be changed to not become the no-brainer choice, Gav is so afraid of.

City Guard should not become an alternative to Corsairs in offensive armies. It's ok to have them around, but they should not be a common sight in such armies as Corsairs are.

Bye
Thanee

[Imdat tauble]

um werent we all gonna compile the good stuff from other threads/forums before getting together and discussiong individual changes?

[Thanee]

um werent we all gonna compile the good stuff from other threads/forums before getting together and discussiong individual changes?

Yep, that's the point here, to collect the data.

But some discussion doesn't hurt, and we were mostly discussing the priorities (which I think are very important and furthermore not necessary to be done seperately).

Bye
Thanee

[Imdat tauble]

ok

[Langmann]

I don't think so, otherwise they would make it available for regular armies.

Therefore I think it needs to be changed to not become the no-brainer choice, Gav is so afraid of.

City Guard should not become an alternative to Corsairs in offensive armies. It's ok to have them around, but they should not be a common sight in such armies as Corsairs are.

Bye

While I disagree that they would make corsairs obsolete, I do think they are offensive in more of a tactical way. However I will accept that they be worth 11 points if we can just move it to priority I as is, and if we are going to keep spearmen as 10 points. You are probably right that the only way GW would accept it is at 11 points (I don't think they'd lower the cost of spearmen, its such a structured formular they use to calculate unit costs that I don't think they make exceptions for one race IMHO). (BUT I wouldn't want cityguard to become a unit never taken because of high costs, you know?)

The reason I press for this is my poll is nearly unanimous. People want them. While that may not be a good thing, I think its worth considering at least as a priority.

Sorry steja.

[Imdat tauble]

city guard should be core, but maybe make them 0-1 or make them not count towards the minimum core requirements? 0-1 is better fluff-wise, but they both work.

[Langmann]

city guard should be core, but maybe make them 0-1 or make them not count towards the minimum core requirements? 0-1 is better fluff-wise, but they both work.

Then if you took a 3000 point army you'd only get one unit of cityguard. Thats not right either. Just let the price be done as per the garrison list and I think they'll be fine. 14 points for the rxb and 10 for the spear and shields in the unit. As GW has defined already.

[Imdat tauble]

or maybe make it so that for every unit of cityguard you ahve to have a different core unit? won't affect many people, but it will force some people to not completely max out on them...

[Langmann]

That would work. But I still think the rules for cityguard as they are in the annual/chronicles are balanced and fair as compared to the spears and corsairs.

Steja's probably wishing he never put me in here as I argue too much.

[Dark Alliance]

Langman : I think steja ans Thanee will appreciate your approach , I do and I agree with you in this instance. I've been a bit quiet on this one 'coz my viewpoint here is the same as yours on this topic. Don't see the need in adding unnecesary comments.

I have my own list of priorities nearly finished now so will post shortly.

[Thanee]

Good!

Bye
Thanee

[Langmann]

Langman : I think steja ans Thanee will appreciate your approach , I do and I agree with you in this instance. I've been a bit quiet on this one 'coz my viewpoint here is the same as yours on this topic. Don't see the need in adding unnecesary comments.

I have my own list of priorities nearly finished now so will post shortly.

Thank you muchly, when the final petition is all said and done, I'll be a big supporter whatever the majority decided. I hope all our hard work, especially those of you with more work than me, will actually make a dent at GW so we can get on to better and more constructive things (like tactics, stories etc.) on druchii.net than the usual once a month argument about how much druchii suck! I am getting tired of people putting down the actual good units we have. I am still waiting for someone to complain about dark riders!

Anyhow on to bigger things... I have various odds and ends collected from several posts and will get on it next weekend, this weekend I have several presentations to take care of.

BTW I will probably be going to the GW Grand tourney in Jan in Vancouver, BC CANADA. If Gav is going to be there I could try and get 30 minutes of time to present our list of corrections in a reasonable and non argumentative manner. As long as our list isn't so sweeping and cheezy at least maybe he'll look at it. I doubt it, but maybe try? I am NOT one of those people with a I HATE GAV approach, as I honestly think he was trying to constuct a more troop based approach in warhammer. (I am picking the local GW manager's brains about Gav's presence as he is referreeing fantasy tourney.)

[Dark Alliance]

Personally I think January is a little ambitious and I'm not too sure that a tournament is the right environment to do this. Reason being he has a ready made excuse for either not giving you the time or not paying too much attention. I think that a meeting at GW HQ in Nottingham would be more ideal. An appointment made to which he would have to commit time from his diary. No get out then.

I remember what he was like when I tried to speak to him at Gamesday.

[Thanee]

I think that a meeting at GW HQ in Nottingham would be more ideal. An appointment made to which he would have to commit time from his diary.

That would be cool, indeed!

Bye
Thanee

[Langmann]

Personally I think January is a little ambitious and I'm not too sure that a tournament is the right environment to do this. Reason being he has a ready made excuse for either not giving you the time or not paying too much attention. I think that a meeting at GW HQ in Nottingham would be more ideal. An appointment made to which he would have to commit time from his diary. No get out then.

I remember what he was like when I tried to speak to him at Gamesday.

Yeah you're probably right, if one of us can get to Nottingham, then that would be perfect.

[Dark Alliance]

From what I have seen on this site, here is my priority list:

CORE UNITS

City Guard 1

SPECIAL UNITS

Executioners 1
Cold One Stupidity 1

RARE UNITS

Hydra breath weapon 2
Cauldron of Blood 1

CHARACTERS

Hag Queen 2
Assassin 1
Beastmaster 1

MAGIC

Magic item list 1
Temple of Khaine 1

As you can see, my list is smaller than Thanee's 'coz he has covered many things in depth already. I suggest when the other members of this forum have put up lists we go for our first vote.

[Langmann]

You list is how I would do it exactly, other than add to rare units RARE Blackguard 1, because its supposed to be our premier unit.

[Imdat tauble]

you forgot some overall army rules which would help us classify us more as druchii, like that fear rule after you run down an enemy unit in the druchii discussion forum.