An analysis of Thanee's revision, by Metallurgist

[Metallurgist]

So, what follows will be what I think will be usable for the grand petition from Thanee's list (you can find it here). I based myself on what would fix the problems, would be reasonable and easy to change.

Beastlord:

I'm sorry, but no. Too far from the current list, won't happen.

Beastmaster:

The beastmaster is usable, I only don't think harpies should benefit from the beastmaster's Ld. Also, leave the harpies 0-1. The rest is fine.

Ah, one more thing: I vote for a dark steed option for the beastmaster.

Hag Queen:

I don't think the name Hag Queen is right (the Hag Queens are priestesses and not fighters - besides, there is a Hag Queen with the Cauldron already), but the concept is fine.

Forbidding her to be the general is not necessary.

Assassin:
Fine, except the master assassin ability. He can buy the rune of Khaine, 5 attacks are sufficient.

City Guard:

Fine. The fact that the annual has them in the same guise proves that GW is not opposed to it. The additional cost is only natural.

Warriors:

Fine - I'm just not sure about the la and shield warriors as you can't make those with the current boxed set. Would GW accept such a change? On the positive side, people who still have the ugly 5th edition plastics can use those again.

Drop the poisoned bolts, it's not really necessary, keep changes to a minimum.

Shades:

This must be changed, 14pts for the bloodshade is ridiculous.

Executioners:

Ok.

War Hydra:

M6 apprentices are a must, the breath attack should be left alone. It doesn't make the hydra any better, and we're trying to keep the changes to a minimum.

Black Guard:

Must be cheaper, 15pts at most. Don't bother with the MI for the champion.

Cauldron of Blood:

This doesn't really fix it enough IMO, but it's the most GW will ever change about it. So, approved.

Cold Ones:

Blood frenzy is too complicated. Either just lower the points cost or raise the Ld a point. That's enough change.

Dark Magic:

Works just fine, so leave it as is, even if it isn't quite right.

Magic Weapons:

Don't invent any new ones - it won't happen, with the possible exception of the blood banner (which isn't really new as it existed in 5th, and is necessary in the list).

I don't think we should mess with the existing items either, we have as many or more useful items as other races. I know many people want better items, but if you look at the other armies we don't have it worse. My verdict: don't change them.

Lastly, I agree with all the errata/clarifications on Temple of Khaine.

This concludes my run-through of what can be used for the petition. Should I post a thread in the petitions to let people comment on it?

Cheers,
-Metallurgist

[Imdat tauble]

we are NOT scrapping changes to magic items, or new magic items. They pretty much suck right now, so if you could, could you go thru each of them and say which ones seem ok to you (we won't use half of them, but we need a few to get cut)

[Langmann]

Beastlord:

I'm sorry, but no. Too far from the current list, won't happen.

Beastmaster:

The beastmaster is usable, I only don't think harpies should benefit from the beastmaster's Ld. Also, leave the harpies 0-1. The rest is fine.

Ah, one more thing: I vote for a dark steed option for the beastmaster.

Agree about BM, they probably won't change it at all because it would require rewriting our book. What we need are either things we can paste "pasties" into our book, or have added on a special list like the gauntlet.

Perhaps a special list of items a BM could take may enhance his beast handling abilities.

Warriors:

Fine - I'm just not sure about the la and shield warriors as you can't make those with the current boxed set. Would GW accept such a change? On the positive side, people who still have the ugly 5th edition plastics can use those again.

Drop the poisoned bolts, it's not really necessary, keep changes to a minimum.

Easy to make the spears into swords.

Poison is a core rule, thus I think a viable addition to rxb.

Hag Queen:

I don't think the name Hag Queen is right (the Hag Queens are priestesses and not fighters - besides, there is a Hag Queen with the Cauldron already), but the concept is fine.

Forbidding her to be the general is not necessary.

Everyone seems to be a fighter in the druchii world.

Black Guard:

Must be cheaper, 15pts at most. Don't bother with the MI for the champion.

Or have enhanced abilities such as eternal hatred. More banners etc.

Cold Ones:

Blood frenzy is too complicated. Either just lower the points cost or raise the Ld a point. That's enough change.

Raise Ld a point for the dread knight and leave it there. I have a feeling GW thinks the knights are just perfect. I can't imagine why.

Dark Magic:

Works just fine, so leave it as is, even if it isn't quite right.

Some things really need to be clarified in our magic. Like the line of sight for the Black Horror, and word of pain REALLY should be able to be cast into combat.

Magic Weapons:

Don't invent any new ones - it won't happen, with the possible exception of the blood banner (which isn't really new as it existed in 5th, and is necessary in the list).

I don't think we should mess with the existing items either, we have as many or more useful items as other races. I know many people want better items, but if you look at the other armies we don't have it worse. My verdict: don't change them.

I can't disagree more here. Just because some other armies are screwed, it doens't make it right. Out of anything in our book, the most agreement you get is that the magic items lists are screwed. We really need to fix that up. My other army books/armies that I play, have nice lists much better than the DE. I play those armies so I am not trying to be biased.
We need to fix and add items, its something GW can solve easily with a WD article and pasties. Lets get it solved right now. If other army players are upset with their lists they can do the same as us. After all what better playtesters are there than the ones that play the army?

I remember the hallaballoo that was raised when Wizards of the Coast (produce Dungeons and Dragons etc.) made the Starwars game book and did a crappy job. They revised it quick and fast. Lets get it done now! If they even took half of our stuff then it would be an improvement. If we present logical and well thought out magic items then perhaps we'll get at least one of them.

[Thanee]

Gav has already stated once, that simple changes, like adding more items, might happen. Whether this was to buy more time, I don't know, but he did say something like this on the GW boards.

Bye
Thanee

[Thanee]

I'll only make a few comments for now.

Hag Queen:

I don't think the name Hag Queen is right (the Hag Queens are priestesses and not fighters - besides, there is a Hag Queen with the Cauldron already), but the concept is fine.

I think in the 5th edition book, the fighting Witch Elf hero was also named Hag Queen (have I got it from there, I don't really know anymore ).

Forbidding her to be the general is not necessary.

I definitely think it is! Remember, that this is not a special list, but rather the general one. Also look at the Bladesinger/Bladeweaver he also has this rule!

I tried to keep my rules as much within the lines GW presented in various other army lists, i.e. the BS+1 champs are all half cost in the WE list!

Assassin:
Fine, except the master assassin ability. He can buy the rune of Khaine, 5 attacks are sufficient.

I just felt, the best fighter among the Druchii shouldn't stand back behind the Highborn.

Bye
Thanee

[Langmann]

I definitely think it is! Remember, that this is not a special list, but rather the general one. Also look at the Bladesinger/Bladeweaver he also has this rule!

Agreed. A Hag queen should only be able to lead her coven of witches. I think Morathi would rue the day Hags became powerful enough to lead armies. Not only that does anyone think a druchii warrior/noble/sorceress especially! etc would trust a hag to lead them?!

[Langmann]

Looking through Thanee's list, and thinking about the BM, I do think he should at least be able to use a spear. After all he is carrying one in my model!

[Thanee]

Well, the Beastmaster is one of my personal highest priorities.

The 6th edition Dark Elf list has a few small themes included, one of which is the beast theme. The Beastmaster just has to be more useful to support this theme!

Bye
Thanee

[Langmann]

Well, the Beastmaster is one of my personal highest priorities.

The 6th edition Dark Elf list has a few small themes included, one of which is the beast theme. The Beastmaster just has to be more useful to support this theme!

Bye
Thanee

no doubt about it. They really (GW) left a lot undone when they thought him up, a great idea but not well thought out on the follow through IMHO.

[Metallurgist]

I think in the 5th edition book, the fighting Witch Elf hero was also named Hag Queen (have I got it from there, I don't really know anymore ).

In 5th edition, you could just choose if you wanted a regular DE hero/character or a witch elf one. Hag Queens were only mentioned in the fluff. A Hag Queen is a century old priestess who rejuvenates each year on Deathnight, bathing in a Cauldron of Blood. After Deathnight, she'll start aging again, and shortly before it she'll be bent and wrinkled from age. A Hag Queen is not some super witch elf.

Besides, there already is a Hag Queen in the book, and a proper one as she comes with the Cauldron of Blood. Real fluffy.

I'd suggest either naming the hero simply Witch Elf Hero, or a somewhat more exotic name such as Favoured Bride of Khaine.

I definitely think it is! Remember, that this is not a special list, but rather the general one. Also look at the Bladesinger/Bladeweaver he also has this rule!

I tried to keep my rules as much within the lines GW presented in various other army lists, i.e. the BS+1 champs are all half cost in the WE list!

Ok, keep the rule.

I just felt, the best fighter among the Druchii shouldn't stand back behind the Highborn.

I don't think he needs another attack for that. He's got WS9 and is lightning fast, plus the hidden rules.


About magic items: I'm sorry guys, but that's simply how I feel about the matter. Most other races have fewer useful MI than us, IMO. We still have too many useless ones, but that seems to be GW's policy with MI. Sad but true.

But alright, I'll take a look through the MI and comment on them.

Raise Ld a point for the dread knight and leave it there. I have a feeling GW thinks the knights are just perfect. I can't imagine why.

I think you are right here. But, if the Dread Knight had Ld9 and there was access to a Bloodbanner, COKnights would already be a lot more reliable, although still overpriced.

Cheers,
-Metallurgist

[Langmann]

I'd suggest either naming the hero simply Witch Elf Hero, or a somewhat more exotic name such as Favoured Bride of Khaine.

That makes sense