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CHARACTERS: Assassin 
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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I am choosing capitals for major topic lists like CORE and then Small letters for a section of the major topic.

Anyhow first two random proposals gleaned from the petitions forum. I am just getting this started to set a format we can use, not putting anything in stone. I am sure you'll all have better contributions.

1. Assassin should be able to choose scout as an option and thus be placed in a shade unit at setup.

2. Assassin should have some sort of missile weapon. He has BS9, lets use it!

I suggest we assemble a large list, get the points and everything all worked out for each item, then put it to a membership vote. Have people rank each item from most preferred to least preferred then set a cut off at say, as an example, 3 new items. Some sections in magic should obviously get a few more new items, ie arcane, banners etc, while others may get 1 or none... just to make it fair with other armies. My orc book gets a huge list for most things, as to dwarfs etc....

Also the current items in the AB must stay, so those revisions would be done and voted on separately so GW could produce pasties to stick over any revisions.

Lets get rolling...

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Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:36 am
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Cold One Knight

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Looks ok. I think the best way to go is take a look at the skaven assassin and copy some wordings and rules from him, ie the 'displace to the back of the unit' thing, the scout rule, etc.

Giving the assassin a crossbow as an option will definitely not unbalance him and would make many people happy, so go for it.

-Metallurgist


Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:21 pm
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Assassin should be 100 points as he is written in our book and have the RXB option. That's be a simple change.

Change some ToK costs (i.e. Dance of Doom, Touch of Death 25 pts).

Then add new skills - i.e. Scouting for 25 pts, 5+ Killing Blow for 50 points, to make him a more viable choice!

My Deathdealer skill is an example how to turn him into a character killer instead of a rank-and-file killer.

Bye
Thanee


Fri Nov 22, 2002 2:43 pm
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Master Babel Fish
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scouting should be a non-magic item choice i reckon...

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Sat Nov 23, 2002 4:24 am
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Yep, a skill.

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Sat Nov 23, 2002 8:19 am
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Master Babel Fish
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no more as in its just comes as an option with the assassin's stats rather than a skill from the temple of khaine

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Sat Nov 23, 2002 9:49 am
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That would be another option, but a skill would be fine, I think.

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Sat Nov 23, 2002 12:43 pm
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Cold One Knight

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As I said in the ToK thread, the scouting thing should be free. I say just copy the skaven assassin for abilities, it wouldn't be fair to have the same thing only worse and more expensive. The skaven asssassin is clearly a lot better than the DE assassin.

-Metallurgist


Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:24 pm
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Yes, right now he is.

I think the Skaven should be better at scouting, tho.
Maybe make scouting an option, but 25 points just seems to be the right cost.

It's good to have some differences between the two Assassins. Does the Skaven have a Killing Blow option?

The Assassin himself needs to be lowered in points or get something instead to make up for the higher cost. I like the idea to give him Touch of Death initially anbd leave him at 125 points (this would make Deathdealer a 25 points skill and would make the Assassin A LOT nastier, because he still gets his full allowance to be added to the Killing Blow). Additional Handweapon should probably be included for free (as the Skaven).

RXB option should probably be 15 points, because ofthe high BS and possible poison upgrades.

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Wed Dec 04, 2002 11:49 am
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Oh, and I still think it should be considered to have Assassins (optional) get 4 Attacks in their basic profile.

There are some heroes with 4 attacks available already and DE Assassins are meant to be the best trained fighters at all, as far as I know.

Of course we should consider to remove Rune of Khaine from the Temple then, or it would get a little too ugly.

Bye
Thanee


Wed Dec 04, 2002 12:12 pm
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Cold One Knight

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Thanee wrote:
I think the Skaven should be better at scouting, tho.
Maybe make scouting an option, but 25 points just seems to be the right cost.

It's good to have some differences between the two Assassins. Does the Skaven have a Killing Blow option?

The Assassin himself needs to be lowered in points or get something instead to make up for the higher cost. I like the idea to give him Touch of Death initially anbd leave him at 125 points (this would make Deathdealer a 25 points skill and would make the Assassin A LOT nastier, because he still gets his full allowance to be added to the Killing Blow). Additional Handweapon should probably be included for free (as the Skaven).

RXB option should probably be 15 points, because ofthe high BS and possible poison upgrades.


I see your point about the scouting thing, and for this petition I agree that we better forget about it or make it a skill. By the way, the skaven assassin has no access to killing blow - but he is a lot cheaper then a DE assassin, and he's just as good at hiding. He also has T4... Man, that skaven assassin is so far superior it's not even funny anymore...

Conclusion, even though it's not the perfect one, I think Thanee's solution is the best: same points, just killing blow for free (this also encourages attacking characters) and a second hand weapon for free. It should also be clarified/errataed that the displaced model is moved to the back of the unit.

I still say just leave the rune of khaine the way to give the assassin more attacks. Keep it simple is our motto.

-Metallurgist


Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:14 pm
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Well, these are my opinions on the Assassin. Langmann has asked me to work with Dungeon_God in finding some suitable suggestestions to e included in our grand petition to GW.

These are my current thoughts on the Dark Elf Assassin.

1. He is not worth his points.

2. He is more of a rank and file mower as opposed to a deadly hero killer

How can these problems be fixed? Simply...

I propose including killing blow in the assassin's points cost and including the additional hand weapon. The cost would go up to 130 points.

If the assassin took the killing blow skill from the skill section of the ToK, he would get killing blow on a 5+.

Assuming the ward save and killing blow skills go down to 25 (as suggested and agreed to) a Dark Elf assasin could now have killing blow on a 5+ and 5 attacks for 180 points. IMHO this would make the assassin a deadly hero killer, something he should be.

There are other options though, which have to be considered.

In 5th edition, the assassin did d3 wounds for every one he caused. This rule could be implemented which would help him kill high wound models, which he should be able to. It wouldnt help at all with regular rank and file which is also good. Maybe this could be added into the skills section under (assassins only) or simply be included in his points cost.

As has been mentioned the assassin could be able to scout, but as others have said, it mirrors the skaven assassin too much. He might have a skill that could allow him to be deployed with shades, but that is pushing it IMHO.

Anyway, please feel free to message either me or dungeon_god in relation to the issue, and post any suggestions you might have. :D Thanks

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Sun Jan 05, 2003 10:16 am
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Quote:
If the assassin took the killing blow skill from the skill section of the ToK, he would get killing blow on a 5+.


OK. This is a lot more powerful than you realize-he will kill things far too often with this, and will possibly become overpowered, something we do not want.

:D


Mon Jan 06, 2003 10:35 pm
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I think it is a limitation for hero level characters to have more that a 50 magic allowance, so that might be impossible to implement.

Quote:
OK. This is a lot more powerful than you realize-he will kill things far too often with this, and will possibly become overpowered, something we do not want.


I do realize how powerful a 5+ killing blow assassin is, but really, isnt a 180 point model with the intention of killing characters meant to have a GOOD chance of doing this.

Considering the undead (VC) have access to a 5+ killing blow item for 25 points, I think an upgrade from 6+ killing blow to 5+ killing blow for 25 is therefor reasonable. Also, I think an deadly, well trained assassin should be just as good as killing a hero and a tooled up Wight!

Ofcourse it needs playtesting and the math done to proper assess the proposal, but im confident that it is not overpowered.

Also, you have to consider the fact that alot of expensive character models also have ward saves that can prevent killing blows. :roll: I don't know!

----

Anyway, Dungeon_God, check your private messages, I have sent you my opinions on the assassin (same as above) as well as some early thoughts on the beastmaster and ToK. If the message didnt get through tell me and I'll re-send it. :lol:

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Tue Jan 07, 2003 4:08 am
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Master Babel Fish
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Here's a summary of what I've liked so far:

Assassin now costs 130pts and includes an extrra hand weap and killing blow

extra skill allowing him to scout for 25 pts
Touch of Death gives him a 5+ touch of death for 25pts and anyone else a 6+ save for it (ie. witch elves)
Allow a repeater crossbow for 15 points that can be coated with dark venom for 10pts (dark venom takes up magic points allowance and only coats the rxb, if you want to coat the assassin's melee weapon too you have to pay another 10pts)

thats what I reckon should happen - this makes the assassin good at killing characters, but keeps him quite vulnerable to attacks...


Tue Jan 07, 2003 5:52 am
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Yep, thats right!

Although, is poison on a rpx really worth 10 points? I think its worth 10 points in HtH because he gets 5 attacks (potentially), but for 2 attacks, I dont think its worth it. Its up for opinions though.

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Tue Jan 07, 2003 6:33 am
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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dungeon_god wrote:
Quote:
If the assassin took the killing blow skill from the skill section of the ToK, he would get killing blow on a 5+.


OK. This is a lot more powerful than you realize-he will kill things far too often with this, and will possibly become overpowered, something we do not want.

:D


Yeah, but if the Assassin doesn't kill what he is supposed to kill... he's dead. So far, other than mages, he's never survived a counterattack from
an enemy character. For me that is. So it works out as a gamble in some ways still.

You guys should do statistics on how he fares against some different enemy characters. There should be an even chance he kills characters worth the same as him, and about a 25% chance for characters double his price, in my mind... what do you think?

Giving him wide access to magic may also make him mega powerful, but not really unique from highborns or nobles other than he strikes first and hides. Imagine the assassin with the GoP...

Sorry dungeon_god, I accidently hit the wrong button and edited your post, I am sorry for being such an idiot...

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Tue Jan 07, 2003 8:37 am
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Master Babel Fish
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there should be a more than even chance that he will kill enemies - he dun stand up to shooting/magic etc. at all, and cannot be taken on his own (except for some exceptional circumstances). Thus he should be able to get more than his pioints worth in what he 'excels' at - character killing...


Tue Jan 07, 2003 9:58 am
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Yes, I do agree with that Langmann (25% for equal points, 50% for appox double)

The one imbalance I can see though is against High Elves. With 5 attacks (hitting of 3s with re-rolls!) and killing blow on a 5+ I can see him consistantly being able to take out a price on a 50% basis.

Ill try to do the numbers... :D

We are assuming the assassin has touch of death on 5+ (thanee calls it deathdealer) with the rune of khaine, giving him 5 attacks, and a 5+ killing blow.

ok, to hit ...

5 x 4/6 = 3.333 (recurring)

1.666 x 4/6 = 1.1106

Total hits = 4.44 (say 4.5)

to wound...

4.5 x 1/3 = 1.5 normal wounds

4.5 x 1/3 = 1.5 killing blows.

if the high elf has a 5+ ward save, he is still killed with 1 killing blow caused.

Conclusion: Against a high elf lord with a 5+ save ( this lord would cost approx the same as the assassin) the assassin will ALWAYS kill him according to the math. Against other races though he wouldnt score as many hits and the ratio would be less.

It is up for suggestions what we do about this matter, I am really stumped. Making the asassin weaker just makes him worse versus other armies but leaving the proposal as is makes the assassin a VERY good answer to tooled up high elf lords.

I have a simple suggestion. I dont know if it would work though.

Blind Hatred.

Hatred is a powerful emotion, and when lashing out infuriously it is hard to discern the weakest part of an enemy's defence, even for the best trained assassins.

All attacks which hit after the hatred re-roll do not count as having killing blow (or only count as having killing blow on a 6+).

I'm not sure, what do you guys think?

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Tue Jan 07, 2003 10:05 am
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Master Babel Fish
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maybe make it -1 to the KB - that way if its a 6+ KB it disappears entirely, but if its a 5+ KB they get a 6+ for the points they spent...


Tue Jan 07, 2003 10:29 am
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Well, thats reasonable I guess. So, this is the rule.

Blind Hatred -

Hatred is a powerful emotion, and when lashing out infuriously it is hard to discern the weakest part of an enemy's defence, even for the best trained assassins.

All re-rolled attacks (from hatred) which hit in close combat cannot benefit from killing blow. If killing blow is attainable ona 5+ its effectiveness is reduced and becomes attainable only on a 6+.

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Tue Jan 07, 2003 11:37 am
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Quote:
Sorry dungeon_god, I accidently hit the wrong button and edited your post, I am sorry for being such an idiot...


'sokay-I already knew it. ;)

Okay, so here is an idea I had-basically, what if the assassin had more access to magical items? Specifically TOK items?

So, the assassin has 50 points he can spend anywhere on any items (TOK or normal magical items available to him) and 25 points he can only spend on TOK?

How does that sound?

Edit: BTW-I like this a TON better and think GW would go for this a lot more than a 5+ killing blow-that I am almost positive will be thrown out the window immediately. It just smells of cheese to me.

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Wed Jan 08, 2003 11:49 pm
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Quote:
So, the assassin has 50 points he can spend anywhere on any items (TOK or normal magical items available to him) and 25 points he can only spend on TOK?


I dont know, I think giving hima simply a greater magic allowance (effecitvely 75 points) will just make him an even sorrier story when he ges killed by a regular hero. Against a character with a ward save, and good armour an assassin can'traelly stand up in close combat. IMHO 5+ killing blow is the answer, and cheese isn't an excuse to disallow it, because a Wight Lord can have 5+ killing blow for 25 points.

Assuming the killing blow skill is reduced to 25 points, but the ward save stays the same, I will give you some pontential combos from your proposal.


Blade of Rhuin + Rune of Khaine = 4 attacks negating armour

Blade of Rhuin + Dark Venom = 3 poison attacks negating armour.

Black Amulet + Touch of Death = 4 attakcs (with ad hw) with killing blow and a 5+ rebounding ward.

Blade of Rhuin + manbane = 3 attacks wounding on 3+ and negating armour.

----------

I really dont think the additional allowance changes the fact that the assassin will only be effective against rank and file. At all...

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Thu Jan 09, 2003 3:18 am
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Inquisitor Black wrote:
Quote:
So, the assassin has 50 points he can spend anywhere on any items (TOK or normal magical items available to him) and 25 points he can only spend on TOK?


I dont know, I think giving hima simply a greater magic allowance (effecitvely 75 points) will just make him an even sorrier story when he ges killed by a regular hero. Against a character with a ward save, and good armour an assassin can'traelly stand up in close combat. IMHO 5+ killing blow is the answer, and cheese isn't an excuse to disallow it, because a Wight Lord can have 5+ killing blow for 25 points.



Hmm, maybe, but I still don't like it, because Wight Lords are not "strikes first" and they CANNOT be "strikes first" when they take that weapon-therefore, I do not think it is as powerful as it would be on an assassin. (i.e. assassins are revealed, it challenges, damn-there goes your impressive 400 point general)

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Thu Jan 09, 2003 3:09 pm
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dungeon_god wrote:
Inquisitor Black wrote:
Quote:
So, the assassin has 50 points he can spend anywhere on any items (TOK or normal magical items available to him) and 25 points he can only spend on TOK?


I dont know, I think giving hima simply a greater magic allowance (effecitvely 75 points) will just make him an even sorrier story when he ges killed by a regular hero. Against a character with a ward save, and good armour an assassin can'traelly stand up in close combat. IMHO 5+ killing blow is the answer, and cheese isn't an excuse to disallow it, because a Wight Lord can have 5+ killing blow for 25 points.



Hmm, maybe, but I still don't like it, because Wight Lords are not "strikes first" and they CANNOT be "strikes first" when they take that weapon-therefore, I do not think it is as powerful as it would be on an assassin. (i.e. assassins are revealed, it challenges, damn-there goes your impressive 400 point general)
)

Yeah but what do wight lords cost? And secondly what is the benefit of a wight lord? He certainly doesn't die to rank and file very easily... and finally the assassin is supposed to be amongst the best (living) warriors in the world.

Just as a game mechanics thing, from someone who uses the assassin a fair amount, not to pick on anyone or anything.

Issuing a challenge at a unit with a general and a champion (regular occurance, and will get a lot more regular if the assassin actually becomes useful) will only result in getting your stupid assassin in a challenge with the champion instead. Not what you want at all...

What you have to do is put him in base to base contact with the general, and thus you leave the assassin open to attacks from regular rank and file. So if even if he kills the general.... guess what gets targeted!

So either have a rule that makes the assassin always able to choose who he challenges, no one can refuse his choice (ie slink off, use another character or champion to fight etc.) Or suffer the fact that the assassin will die.

Or have the assassin actually be able to have a chance of killing something in the first or second round. The assassin is in deep need of being a one hit wonder, otherwise people won't use him. Either he works or he doesn't get used.

So yeah, whoops the assassin killed your 400 point general (there is a good chance he will not btw even with 5+ KB), then too bad... that is what the assassin does. The assassin will die shortly after that anyway so you also lose at least 130 points of character as well. If the assassin fails to kill the general then you lose 130 points, its not like he'll survive a counter attack from a general worth 400 points.

Anyhow lets humour IB for just a little bit longer, dungeon_god, before we discount it. I haven't decided yet myself. Lets poke out some more of the problems for a little while with the killing blow 5+ idea, lets look at some potential combos.

Example :

with 25 points 5+ KB and 25 points rune of khaine the proposed 130 point assassin has 5 attacks and is now worth 180 points. (Not fun to lose.)

Ok so he is going the have a better WS than most things so with that in mind:

5 x 0.67 x 0.16 = 0.536 chance of KB against an opponent without a ward save, 6+ KB.

5 x 0.67 x 0.33 = 1.055 chance of KB against an opponent without a ward save, 5+ KB.

Ok, but most 400 point generals have a 4+ ward save.

So with 5+ KB you have 1 chance of a KB getting through and with 6+ KB but 5 attacks, you get half a chance.

However consider what you are losing, you are only wounding with S4, and even most heroes have armour. So you are still taking a big risk, IMHO with taking the KB option.

Now lets say you use the Manbane and 5+ KB.

4 x 0.67 x 0.33 = 88% chance of a killing blow.

3 more attacks wounding on 67% = 1.35 wounds. Not enough to even kill a hero. Not to mention his ward saves. All an assassin with the venom is good for is rank and file, and wizards without armour.

While there is the potential for the assassin to kill outright an opposing general, is that a bad thing with 180 points spent, and also considering most 400 point generals can get ward saves, its not really going to be one chance, especially if opponents know that the assassin is deadly. Heck even 90 point ones can get a ward save.

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Thu Jan 09, 2003 8:26 pm
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