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CHARACTERS: Assassin 
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Morathi's Favoured
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Here's an idea I got by pm today. It may be of use :?

Darius Foulblood wrote:
Hello and greetings. I don`t know if this is the right place to say this but I happened to read the thread about the assasin in the GP forum and thought that I might be able to contribute...


The assassin should have a rule like the Blood Dragon vampires that forces them to challenge enemy characters. That will make it more difficult for people to exploit the assassins power to kill rank and file, and rather play in character with them. To even things out, the assassin should also be able to get to any character in opposing unit that it wants to (no hiding or sending out champions as cannon fodder) in order to reflect the assassin`s skill. With this rule, people would also focus more on choosing skills that helps destroying characters as well.

What do you think? Sorry if I wasn`t supposed to PM the GP mods like this for suggestions, but I didn`t know how to do it otherwise...


Fri Jan 10, 2003 12:39 am
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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Dark Alliance wrote:
Here's an idea I got by pm today. It may be of use :?

Darius Foulblood wrote:
Hello and greetings. I don`t know if this is the right place to say this but I happened to read the thread about the assasin in the GP forum and thought that I might be able to contribute...


The assassin should have a rule like the Blood Dragon vampires that forces them to challenge enemy characters. That will make it more difficult for people to exploit the assassins power to kill rank and file, and rather play in character with them. To even things out, the assassin should also be able to get to any character in opposing unit that it wants to (no hiding or sending out champions as cannon fodder) in order to reflect the assassin`s skill. With this rule, people would also focus more on choosing skills that helps destroying characters as well.

What do you think? Sorry if I wasn`t supposed to PM the GP mods like this for suggestions, but I didn`t know how to do it otherwise...


That's funny, I was just talking about this earlier in the forum! Anyhow it's a good idea as I already explained why.

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Fri Jan 10, 2003 1:58 am
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Quote:
nyhow lets humour IB for just a little bit longer, dungeon_god, before we discount it.



I haven't discounted it. I merely want to point out that I think it is extremely powerful, much more so than others are stating it is. Especially since, at the proposed prices, he could have 5 attacks with a 5+ killing blow-that is way better than the wight lord.

I am merely attempting to keep the cheese from collecting. ;) Whether or not this is part of it is anyone's guess-I am just trying to be the Devil's Advocate if you will and come up with other solutions that are a little less strong, but still very nice changes. :) I hope you understand now where I am coming from.

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Fri Jan 10, 2003 3:01 am
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We alwyas need a devil's advocate!!!

We wouldnt want GW to laugh at us when we submit the petition eh?

Anyway, I think KB on a 5+ is not cheese, as assassins are MEANT to be killing characters, ffs, its not like they are gobbo assassin sor anything.

Anyway, I suggest we put this to everyone in the regular petitiions forum, see what ppl think...

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Fri Jan 10, 2003 11:04 am
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dungeon_god wrote:
Quote:
nyhow lets humour IB for just a little bit longer, dungeon_god, before we discount it.



I haven't discounted it. I merely want to point out that I think it is extremely powerful, much more so than others are stating it is. Especially since, at the proposed prices, he could have 5 attacks with a 5+ killing blow-that is way better than the wight lord.

I am merely attempting to keep the cheese from collecting. ;) Whether or not this is part of it is anyone's guess-I am just trying to be the Devil's Advocate if you will and come up with other solutions that are a little less strong, but still very nice changes. :) I hope you understand now where I am coming from.


I know, what I meant was can you point out the flaws to his arguments, that is all, I want to flesh out the idea before discarding it. Its good to be dissenting.

What you said is correct, that would be a powerful combo, and I gave the statistics above to how many of those hits would turn into killing blows.

Now what we need to discuss is: should the assassin have an excellent chance of killing his opponent? If he cannot, he won't be taken because the highborn, or even noble, is better at living past the first hit from the opponent back. In other words, if the assassin doesn't kill his prey, he dies. I've never had one live on the counter attack.

I think we should set up some guidlines of what the assassin should be able to do, his role. Then go from there.

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Fri Jan 10, 2003 6:53 pm
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Okay.

Assassin: Should be able to mow R&F

Should have a good chance of killing a lesser character (75%+)

Should have about a 50% chance of killing an equivalent character (up to 200 points)

Should have about a 25% chance of killing higher point level characters-because, really, otherwise he is too good for his point cost.

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Fri Jan 10, 2003 10:54 pm
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dungeon_god wrote:
Okay.

Assassin: Should be able to mow R&F

Should have a good chance of killing a lesser character (75%+)

Should have about a 50% chance of killing an equivalent character (up to 200 points)

Should have about a 25% chance of killing higher point level characters-because, really, otherwise he is too good for his point cost.


Sounds good to me, though I think 33% chance for higher points cost characters. But its all just numbers... I think the assassin should be able to at least inflict 1-2 wounds on a high point costs character. That way a combo between a highborn and an assassin can kill a tough VC lord or something. (relatively similar points costs)...

Lets consider that with all his stuff an assassin is worth about 180 points.

Also since we cannot really define what a higher point charater may have, let us say that the higher character should probably have these certain items:

4+ ward save
2+ armour save
T5
4 attacks S6

And should cost around 300 points

Middle characters 200 points:

5+ ward save or none
2+ AS
T4
4 attacks S6

Low characters 70-100 points :

2+ AS
T4
3 attacks, S5

(In my opinion, general poison is somewhat out, because most characters have good AS.)

Anyhow what do you think about my outlines of characters and such?

Maybe the ability to inflict D2 or D3 wounds (like the old assassin) would be better than 5+ KB?

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While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."


Fri Jan 10, 2003 11:41 pm
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Quote:
Maybe the ability to inflict D2 or D3 wounds (like the old assassin) would be better than 5+ KB?


I like that a lot more.

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Sat Jan 11, 2003 12:10 am
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Yes, the d3 wounds is good, but IMHO the beuty of killing blow is also negating armour saves. And if an ASSASSIN! cannt have killing blow, why the heck is it in the rulebook anyway?

The killing blow rule was made for assassin like characters. I say this because when you bring in d3 wounds, he will start becoming more of a moster / large target killer. I mean ogres, trolls, ushabti, ect.

Sure, with the d3 wounds rule he will become more of a character killer, but IMHO still not enough to warrant his points.

First, he has to hit. Say all hit! :D

Then, we has to wound (with manbane), 3 wound.

Then, the eney get saves, with modifiers it should be around 3 +.

Say he inflicts 1 wound.

Then the character gets a ward save (say the assassin gets lucky and the character fails).

So, he does on average 2 wounds.

Is this enough to kill a character worth his points? no.

Also consider the fact that the d3 wouds can always result in a one which will almost always result in the assassin getting killed.

I hold my opinion on 5+ killing blow, so at least then he is properly priced and represented as a character killer!

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Sat Jan 11, 2003 12:47 am
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Actaully, I have another thought.

Assassin gets killing blow on a 5+ the first time he is revealed...

Then it reverts back to on a 6+.

His price is inreased to 140 points (inclues the special KB rule, and exta hand weapon). He may also take his 50 points of magic items.

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Sat Jan 11, 2003 12:50 am
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5+ killing blow when revealed-I like that! Or, maybe make it that he has an irresistable challenge OR a 5+ killing blow on the round he is revealed. That way, he is really deadly.


Sat Jan 11, 2003 8:31 am
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lol, what about an irrestible challenge AND!!!!!!!!! the 5+ killing blow. He then costs 150 points!!! I like that!!! :D

So, your assassin pops out, kills his character, survives, but then isnt really that effective since he has been revealed, hence not having hte KB on a 5+.

Yipee, we might be onto a winner!

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Sat Jan 11, 2003 11:02 am
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Except that a fully decked out assassin costs 200 points now-how many people are going to take it then? I know I wouldn't. 190 was almost too high for my taste.


Sat Jan 11, 2003 10:33 pm
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Well, 200 points for a character that ...

Can issue an irrestible challenge on the turn he is revealed, with a 5+ killing blow. He has regualr 6+ killing blow on following turns.

He has 5 attacks, including the rune of khaine and the additional hand weapon which would be included in his cost.

He also has manbane which allows him to wound on 3+ all the time.


I know that seems a little expensive, but I would rather see a 200 point assassin actaully KILL an expensive enemy character (from 150 - 300 points) than see a 150 point one leave no scrath on him.

When you think about it, and irrestible challenge is pretty damn good. I say this because even though you can normally choose your target and strike against him without his prevention, you can still be attacked back by other enemy units, and will likely get killed. At least witht eh challenge rule in the first round of combat at least, the assassin will live to fight another day (or round! :D)

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Sun Jan 12, 2003 12:54 am
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I do think there should be an exception, specifically for Skaven characters. But that is just me.

Otherwise, it doesn't look too bad-we may just have a consensus. ;)


Sun Jan 12, 2003 3:08 am
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Inquisitor Black wrote:
Actaully, I have another thought.

Assassin gets killing blow on a 5+ the first time he is revealed...

Then it reverts back to on a 6+.

His price is inreased to 140 points (inclues the special KB rule, and exta hand weapon). He may also take his 50 points of magic items.


i like that a lot. First time revealed.... cool idea and its fluffy!

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Sun Jan 12, 2003 5:18 am
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:D yep, I think it is good, because he wont turn into a character mower who just walks around and then kills heroes... :D

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Sun Jan 12, 2003 6:59 am
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Yeah, but he is still so friggin expensive, even with this rule and the +Hw. 140 points for something that is almost certainly going to die in the first round of CC even IF he manages to kill his target? I am nor sure this will work. After all, remember that most of his points are derived from his extremely high stats - which are, mostly, pretty useless: BF 9 - he cannot shoot without and Rxbow, Ld 10 - so what? He is going to die anyway, or survive by winning. Plus, the unit he is with does not benefit from his Ld - they will still run, and take Mr. "I don't care!" with them. WS 9 - better, but he will still only hit on a 3+ on the most.


Sun Jan 12, 2003 10:53 pm
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Hey, about his BF - just got an idea: how about giving him shuriken, poisened (possibly with the stuff he puts on his weapons)? Or letting him use those with his KB? Okay, might be quite far off - just an idea. At least, we could make some use of this dearly bought BF9.


Sun Jan 12, 2003 10:56 pm
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I think the possibilty of a crossbow, or other ranged weapon (throwing stars, knives, blow pipe) is valid, but VERY hard to implement.

Simply due to the fact the assassin will most likely be hidden until he engages in close combat. To allow the assassin to shoot from a unit just allows your opponent to know what unit he is in and blow it up.

Quote:
Yeah, but he is still so friggin expensive, even with this rule and the +Hw. 140 points for something that is almost certainly going to die in the first round of CC even IF he manages to kill his target?


That is not correct, we proposed an irrestible challenge rule. If he kills his target, no one can strike back at him, and then next round he can start mowing down infanty with his high initiave and lots of attacks.

I think he is worth his points like that, and could possibly be "feared" by enemies of the druchii. On that note, people fearing us just wouldnt be right, no one has up until now ... so :D

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Sun Jan 12, 2003 11:49 pm
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Ooops, I missed that. Okay, that would be accepable, then.


Mon Jan 13, 2003 10:44 pm
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:D Thanks Matras, also your suggestion for a shooting weapon is good, and we need to find out a way to allow him it without disrupting his hidden rules.

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Tue Jan 14, 2003 2:10 am
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Inquisitor Black wrote:
:D Thanks Matras, also your suggestion for a shooting weapon is good, and we need to find out a way to allow him it without disrupting his hidden rules.


I don't know how to do it. Your opponent will start to wonder if one unit of corsairs starts shooting an arrow, know what I mean. The opponent will figure it out after at least one game! (I hope).

Perhaps this: a unit charged, the assassin can stand and shoot (you've probably figured out by now that your assassin is going to reveal himself) at any model he chooses, regular character in units rules do not apply nor do look out sir rules:

then choose something he'd have to shoot with. Like perhaps a poison weapon of somekind, ie: poisoned repeater crossbow. (A normal arrow ain't gonna do squat against a character).

Perhaps a net or bolas, like netters in goblin units, reducing one attack off of the opponent if you succeed a roll to hit for that combat round.

What is the Chance to Hit with BS 9 anyway?

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Tue Jan 14, 2003 2:56 am
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Quote:
What is the Chance to Hit with BS 9 anyway?


Like, pretty much guaranteed on a 2+.

Sorry, I just don't think it is necessary unless we make him a scout-I think that was probably Tuomos' idea, and it just didn't work out...

I would just let it drop-it's one part of him that is useless-the irresistable challenge on reveal will make him very, very powerful and will compensate, IMO.


Tue Jan 14, 2003 3:46 am
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Quote:
I would just let it drop-it's one part of him that is useless-the irresistable challenge on reveal will make him very, very powerful and will compensate, IMO.


Well, I was just entertaining the possibility considering it was already suggested ... I personally think it would to much trouble and rules for a next to nothing result which I really don't think is needed. :roll:

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Tue Jan 14, 2003 6:05 am
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