SPECIAL: Cold One Knights

Post by **Langmann** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 1:30 am

Well well well... where to start.

A long time ago when our knights were A2 there was a reason we put up with stupidity.

Now as Gav wrote in the Lizardman pdf list, cold ones were too powerful so they changed them.

So lets consider some options to deal with stupidity, which IMHO, GW will never let us get away with not having it as a factor.

If the dread knight was Ld9, it would change the chances of failure to 1/6 turns instead of 1.7/6 turns (close to 2 per game!).

It's gotten so bad that most people put a noble in the unit to keep it in line.

As to the beastmaster allowing re-rolls, I first find it out b/c the beastmaster should not be following a unit of knights around, it looks silly, and I cringe thinking of a BM with no armour being around combat.
Secondly it will never fly because it reduces the stupidity chances of failure so low that it's no longer even a factor. GW will never let us get away with that!

The blood banner for 10-25 points could allow one stupidity reroll per game. That may get accepted, but IMHO it takes away from having other nice banners that one may take with this unit.

I would go with the dread knight having Ld9. It allows other players a target to making our knights stupider, plus its fluffy (he'd have more experience with the cold ones and also be an inspiration to his own men.)

Its not uncommon for other champions to have certain higher stats....

Post by **Imdat tauble** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 1:44 am

i aint sure about this - there are ideas about having magic items (maybe give dread knights a 25pt magic item allowance?) that help reduce stupidity (ie. give +1ld for tests or something)

this might be a good way to do it...

Post by **Thanee** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 2:15 pm

COK should be 26 pts/model as they are in the book right now.

I'm not too keen on giving unit champions better stats. Sure they did it with Orcs and with Beastmen, but there's still a difference.

Beastmaster re-roll is still a great idea IMHO, as it also integrates the Beastmaster further into the list. It's also similar to existing ideas (engineers and warmachine re-rolls). Altho, this belongs more to the Beastmaster thread, the possible change has to be considered here as well.

What about giving COK an upgrade (like Empire Inner Circle), which increases their Ld by +1 for +2 pts/model (starting at 26 pts/model)?

Bye
Thanee

Post by **Langmann** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 5:18 pm

Thanee wrote:COK should be 26 pts/model as they are in the book right now.

I'm not too keen on giving unit champions better stats. Sure they did it with Orcs and with Beastmen, but there's still a difference.

Beastmaster re-roll is still a great idea IMHO, as it also integrates the Beastmaster further into the list. It's also similar to existing ideas (engineers and warmachine re-rolls). Altho, this belongs more to the Beastmaster thread, the possible change has to be considered here as well.

What about giving COK an upgrade (like Empire Inner Circle), which increases their Ld by +1 for +2 pts/model (starting at 26 pts/model)?

Bye
Thanee

Well they gave some champions better stats, so now, let us take advantage of it too. Its really not very fair.

I think they'd never allow the BM because it would make stupidity a non-factor (the chances go down so much that it wouldn't happen in a game). Thats probably why they never allowed it in the first place.

Also I don't like the idea of a unit needing a hero to keep it in line. It should be functional the way it is! Most people don't like failing 1.7 times a game!

Your last idea is good, IMHO.

Metallurgist · Post by **Metallurgist** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 6:51 pm

Thanee wrote:COK should be 26 pts/model as they are in the book right now.

I agree. The COKnights in the book are horribly overpriced.

Beastmaster re-roll is still a great idea IMHO, as it also integrates the Beastmaster further into the list. It's also similar to existing ideas (engineers and warmachine re-rolls).

Again, agreed. The beastmaster needs something extra or he will just be a Manticore accessory. The re-roll is fitting, works and comes in handy with the knights.

What about giving COK an upgrade (like Empire Inner Circle), which increases their Ld by +1 for +2 pts/model (starting at 26 pts/model)?

Interesting idea! I like it. Of course, the beastmaster ability would be better for the Ld9 knights than for the Ld8 ones.

Blood banner: must make a come-back! I'd make it ignore the first failed stupidity test - for the points you pay for it you should be sure to get something back. I hate gambler items.

-Metallurgist

Post by **Langmann** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 6:58 pm

Again, agreed. The beastmaster needs something extra or he will just be a Manticore accessory. The re-roll is fitting, works and comes in handy with the knights.

Will never be allowed. It will mean that stupidity works 0.5/6 turns. Leadership 9 is 0.96/6 turns. They won't let us get away with negating stupidity that much so that it almost never happens in a game, IMHO. Otherwise why add stupidity to the cold ones? Originally it balanced the 2 S4 attacks, now with M7, its just a pain in the ass.

Plus don't you think there is something wrong with having to have a character of any kind babysit a unit? Why would I take a BM, when I can take a noble and get attacks, armour, etc as well?

It will degenerate into having the BM on a cold one (useless for anything except babysitting knights) or a BM on a manticore running after knights, making the manticore useless. It sucks, its silly looking. Why not have independent knights like knights are supposed to be?

Metallurgist · Post by **Metallurgist** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 7:32 pm

Well, you can't have it all. Either the knights are almost immune to stupidity, of course at the appropriate cost, or you have sucky - I mean unreliable - knights.

But Langmann, don't forget that even if a BM makes a unit knights a lot less likely to go stupid, you pay a lot for that too! A unit COK, 6 strong at 26pts a piece would be 201pts. A naked beastmaster on a CO would cost more than 66pts, which is more than a quarter of the cost of the unit! We should get some return out of that.

So why not, all the other races get reliable heavy cav. Why not DE?

EDIT: don't forget that even with small odds, it can happen! So we'd still be at a disadvantage to other races as they're expensive...

-Metallurgist

Post by **Langmann** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 7:45 pm

I agree, but if we are going to negate it lets do it without the BM. Whatever the case is we are going to pay a price. I think the BM is just wearing the wrong clothes to hang out with the knights.

Perhaps a banner or something else like Ld bonus.

I guess we are really paying the price for fear. Which leads me to those damn Black Knights. Yah I know that if they lose combat they die, but it ain't the point of knights to get embroiled... If you are stupid enough to get your knights stuck in to a losing combat then you should pay for it.

Our knights should cost about the same as Black Knights with Barding. We pay a big price for stupidity. A real big price, in that I agree!

Metallurgist · Post by **Metallurgist** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 8:10 pm

Black Knights don't simply cause fear, they are undead. This means they cause fear, but they are also unable to flee from combats, immune to psychology, have the special undead way of losing combat etc. It's a bit tought to compare.

But if you ask me, COKnights with Ld8 are worth 26pts. Stupidity is a very severe disadvantage.

-Metallurgist

Post by **Langmann** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 8:12 pm

That was my point exactly, stupidity is a disadvantage almost as bad as the disadvatages of the Black Knights.

Post by **Thanee** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 9:14 pm

I think the link between Cold Ones and the Beastmaster should be there, it's such a nice way to create some actual synergies within the army and have more than just some units randomly patched together. I also think, that you should not be forced to use the Beastmaster, and that the knights should be useful on their own (or with a Noble).

Therefore I would really make all the above changes.

* Drop cost to 26 (COC to 90, Hero-CO to 20, Lord-CO to 30)
* Allow BM re-roll within 12"
* Let one unit upgrade to Ld 9 for +2 pts/model
* Reintroduce Blood Banner (whatever it does, either ignore first failure on a Stupidity test or my most recent one using the Cold Blooded rule for all Stupidity tests)

Yes you could combine all of these to create a unit, which is pretty much immune to Stupidity, but consider what you would pay for it then, and you still cannot be absolutely certain!

Bye
Thanee

Post by **Langmann** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 10:45 pm

I agree to that summary.

Post by **Thanee** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 8:58 am

One thing I just noticed, while reading the Baron's Cold One topic.

When presenting the Cold One changes, we should stress the fact, that Cold Ones should be fear-causing beasts, even when on the battlefield represented by miniatures, which should let the opponent think about what they would do to his units, if they get to charge them, and not - like it is now - amuse him with the Stupidity, which seems the primary trait of Cold One Knights these days.

Therefore Stupidity must be lessened, so that the Cold One Knights become the fearsome heavy cavalry they are meant to be!

Bye
Thanee

Post by **Langmann** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:29 pm

While I don't often agree with Baron DeSade, what he says is obviously what we are all thinking. Anyhow ld9 would fix the problem.

Its fluffy (they're nobles like Dragon Princes).

It would make stupidity happen only 16% of the time vs 27%. 1 turn per game, which is fair. They should cost 28 points like this.

My opponents do fear the CoK now anyway as far as HtH goes. (except for Chaos but they fear nothing anyhow).