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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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In order to address the revision in terms of playtesting, I am starting a
new forum. This new forum will take place in the old Grand Petition Forum.

People that have entered proper playtesting reports will be admitted into
that forum.

From this time onwards people that submit two proper playtesting reports
will also be admitted into that forum.

The Playtesting Guild Forum and members will have the following mandate:

1. To submit a playtesting report at least once per two weeks.
2. To actively discuss playtesting results in separate forums in attempt to
iron out the revision into a finished product as various items come up.
Please be aware that this will depend only on playtesting results and not
single opinions.
3. To design and playtest new revisions IF necessary. This will depend on
feedback from Gav, and from playtesting results.
4. To actively contribute to the development of the DE army. I will be
paying special attention to the comments of these people since they have
playtested the current revision.
5. To help me submit valid argument to Gav about revision items as they come
up.

Other people are welcome to submit a report to the general forum, as well as
discuss in the general forum the revisions. However special attention will
be paid to the members of the playtesting guild.

People who either want out of the guild, or do not want to participate in
the guild are not required to do so and will be allowed to resign or return
depending upon their individual situation.

Please remember that the revision will not be changing unless a drastic change is required. Such a change will be based upon playtesting results. The reason drastic changes will not be made unless a result demands it is because Gav has the basic revision at this point in time, and I do not want to change it to avoid confusion. Also many of the revisions were submissions of the general membership and thus I do not like to depart from that consensus without good reason. Finally the revision is widely distributed and thus demands consistency.

Please do not post in locked threads.

Thank you.

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While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."


Fri Mar 14, 2003 12:44 am
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Langmann,

Has anyone thought about making a reference "sheet"[read:post] with all the simple revision rules on it? I know it would help me a lot to be able to glance at one sheet then have to remember and consult the website. If anyone else thinks this would be a good idea, I'll volunteer to write one up.

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Sat Mar 15, 2003 2:37 am
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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It is an excellent idea. Please write one up if you have the time. :)

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Sat Mar 15, 2003 7:51 am
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Morathi's Favoured
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I agree too. Thanx Furion :D


Sat Mar 15, 2003 10:56 am
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Ok guys, I'll have one by the end of this week. I just got done with a tournament this last weekend, so I couldn't quite get to it. I'm going to write a reference list and print it out for a test game this weekend. 8)

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Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:06 am
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Also, Langmann, how are the results being analyzed? Are you doing averages or wins or looking at effectiveness or what? Before I play the next game, might help me write a more useful report if I knew exactly how and what specfically is being looked at and what's not that important.

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Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:11 am
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The main thing we are trying to determine is whether any of the revisions can be abused or whether they are too powerful. In addition, are any of them totally useless too!

The Cauldron is a recent topic of conversation so your input into that would be useful.

Finally, it would be useful to know why you choose the units you do. This gives everyone an insight into your thought patterns, in particular if you are now using units which you did not use before.


Mon Mar 17, 2003 1:13 pm
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OK I'm in so getting to the job, but anyone coul give me link to the place where it is or send Gav's styled playtest rules, I heard that he has some special wishes about how playtest results texts should look like and do you Langman want me to rewritte my prwious reports??

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Mon Mar 17, 2003 2:10 pm
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@ Naram Sin: I have typed the instructions up in the Playtesting Results Section.


@ Furion: I am mainly looking for things that will be considered way over the top by the opponents. So far nothing like that has come up except for poison rxb and banner of cold blood.

Also I am looking for effectiveness. So far the CoK have shown themselves to be a lot more effective. There are quite a few games now where ld9 has made them only fail once on average throughout the entire game. There are some games where they failed more than once but that is balanced by some games where they did not fail at all.

The beastmaster has a good effect for the CoC and the knights, is something everyone wanted, and so far hasn't shown itself to be totally over the top. However I would like to see that one playtested a bit more and hear what opponents are saying about it.

I think there are some issues that have been resolved.

1. Cityguard/mixed formation has shown itself to be a good unit that works well with other units. It has not shown itself to be overpowered at all. This is pleasing since finally our spearmen are useful.

2. The rxb point reduction has not been complained about by any opponent (except for I think Naram Sin's) and has allowed a little more flexibility in lists.

3. The Black Guard eternal hatred has demonstrated itself to be acceptable. In certain instances it has traded blow for blow or more with things like a unit of grave guard. It seems to be a reasonable fix for that unit that does not put it over the top. In particular the BG seems very good against troops of lower WS and cheap infantry.

4. The hydra has not shown itself to be a problem with a points reduction or M6. The question is whether it was fine already. No opponent has complained about the point reduction or M6 yet.

5. Leadership 9 for CoK has been accepted by opponents and not brought the unit into disrepute. Small units of CoK are more reliable and yet are not owning the battlefield. Obvuiously a large unit of CoK with a lord in it is powerful but we all knew that...

6. Many of the magic items have not been over the top. A sprnkling of them have been tested, and the few tests on the Hand of S'tarra, the most disputed item, hasn't caused the games to be owned by the DE. In particular the enchanted items have been tested and have been found to be reasonable. The staff of slavery has been suprisingly not claimed as cheese by opponents. The banner of relentless assualt has not been a problem except for one group.

7. Word of pain in CC was unsuprisingly ok'd by everyone.

8. Amazing that the Beastmaster with the lore of beasts has not shown itself to be way too powerful. Some people have ideas about the beastmaster but others like it the way it is. I have a problem removing his "spellcasting" components because he should have dispel dice against other things especially things that use the lore of beasts and he should be able to compete magically that way as well. On the flip side some people have rightly pointed out that this means he needs a contingent of sorceresses to be completely reliable. That may be so.
However making his spells bound spells would mean that they would get dispelled much more often, and once again a contingent of sorceresses would be necessary to use up the opponents dispel dice. He would go the way of the empire preist and that is fearful as well.
So I think to make it reasonable he is fine the way he is. He is no where near as good as a sorceress.

So things to really test:

1. Magic items. Please try out more of them!

2. Beastmaster with the effects on stupidity. Also try it's effects on the Hydra, it allows a reroll of break tests if within 12" and not yet used it's pursuasion...

3. Cauldron of Blood.

The average win to loss ratio is as balanced as it could be. This is very pleasing.

Some issues remain:

1. Executioners. Where to go with these guys. Some good reviews and some bad ones. They need to be used as support and I think maybe that is their use and they require only HA.

2. Cauldron of Blood: some good reviews and some bad ones. I think this item really needs more playtesting. I think people haven't realized the benefit of witches never losing frenzy, that is very powerful along with the reroll of wounds. Think about that with a unit of CoK hitting, or even witch elves.

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Mon Mar 17, 2003 6:48 pm
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Quote:
1. Executioners. Where to go with these guys. Some good reviews and some bad ones. They need to be used as support and I think maybe that is their use and they require only HA.

to discus about Exec pleas go to topic called my crazzyy idea about exec. IMO i think that HA and S4 will make them killers suport unit - I like this idea!!

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Mon Mar 17, 2003 6:57 pm
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langmann wrote:
3. The Black Guard eternal hatred has demonstrated itself to be acceptable. In certain instances it has traded blow for blow or more with things like a unit of grave guard. It seems to be a reasonable fix for that unit that does not put it over the top. In particular the BG seems very good against troops of lower WS and cheap infantry.


Langmann, if you have recently looked up any BG comments/threads you will know that lots of people still arn't happy with them. They they are too expensive and are still not enduring. Generally all dark elves are good against cheap low WS infantry so that argument doesn't stand. BG need to be able to go toe to toe with other elites, which they still cannot do, because other elites are way cheaper.

langmann wrote:
4. The hydra has not shown itself to be a problem with a points reduction or M6. The question is whether it was fine already. No opponent has complained about the point reduction or M6 yet.


You should take into consideration that some play testers might not notify their opponents about such small changes. These changes arn't really evident in a battle. I suggest that the playtester MUST show it's army list to their opponent in order these slight changes can be detected by opponents

langmann wrote:
5. Leadership 9 for CoK has been accepted by opponents and not brought the unit into disrepute. Small units of CoK are more reliable and yet are not owning the battlefield. Obvuiously a large unit of CoK with a lord in it is powerful but we all knew that...


Again, many opponents likely weren't notified of the the consequenses, so they wouldn't be able to give good judgement.



langmann wrote:
So things to really test:

1. Magic items. Please try out more of them!
I agree, but you need lots of results to get every item tested because there is still limited space for them in each army. Maybe you should notify everyone what exactly you want to be tested in a thread once or twice a fortnight.

2. Beastmaster with the effects on stupidity. Also try it's effects on the Hydra, it allows a reroll of break tests if within 12" and not yet used it's pursuasion...

3. Cauldron of Blood.

The average win to loss ratio is as balanced as it could be. This is very pleasing.


I agree, but you need lots of results to get every item/unit tested because there is still limited space for them in each army. Maybe you should notify everyone what exactly you want to be tested in a thread once or twice a fortnight.

langmann wrote:
Some issues remain:

1. Executioners. Where to go with these guys. Some good reviews and some bad ones. They need to be used as support and I think maybe that is their use and they require only HA.


There are lots of different ideas about the current exes. Most of them seem to agree that something needs to be done about improving their results in the CC rounds after the first. Indeed the problem seems to be the bad performance of the exes in the second round. Thus the current solutions (5+ KB, 4 strength) don't really help the exes of their problem according to public opinion. I think a new thread should be started made by you (langmann), which should compile all these new ideas and let these be tested, since clearly the current solutions, don't really solve their problem.

langmann wrote:
2. Cauldron of Blood: some good reviews and some bad ones. I think this item really needs more playtesting. I think people haven't realized the benefit of witches never losing frenzy, that is very powerful along with the reroll of wounds. Think about that with a unit of CoK hitting, or even witch elves.


Never losing frenzy is a big boon, but the reroll in the first round of CC and 6+ ward save isn't really worth the 205 point, according to public opinion. I for one havn't seen alot of cauldrons in the test army lists, and this alone should give you a clear message of discontent. Look up my thread for solutions....

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Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:14 pm
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Reader of posts wrote:
I for one havn't seen alot of cauldrons in the test army lists, and this alone should give you a clear message of discontent. Look up my thread for solutions....


Unfair comment, just 'coz I haven't used it doesn't mean discontent. Jeez there are a whole bunch of items and changes to playtest and we are few in the Playtesters Guild!


Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:37 pm
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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Reader of posts wrote:
langmann wrote:
3. The Black Guard eternal hatred has demonstrated itself to be acceptable. In certain instances it has traded blow for blow or more with things like a unit of grave guard. It seems to be a reasonable fix for that unit that does not put it over the top. In particular the BG seems very good against troops of lower WS and cheap infantry.


Langmann, if you have recently looked up any BG comments/threads you will know that lots of people still arn't happy with them. They they are too expensive and are still not enduring. Generally all dark elves are good against cheap low WS infantry so that argument doesn't stand. BG need to be able to go toe to toe with other elites, which they still cannot do, because other elites are way cheaper.


Most people have liked them or been satisfied.

These troops are even better against lower WS troops. The argument does stand.

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Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:43 pm
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Quote:
There are lots of different ideas about the current exes. Most of them seem to agree that something needs to be done about improving their results in the CC rounds after the first. Indeed the problem seems to be the bad performance of the exes in the second round. Thus the current solutions (5+ KB, 4 strength) don't really help the exes of their problem according to public opinion. I think a new thread should be started made by you (langmann), which should compile all these new ideas and let these be tested, since clearly the current solutions, don't really solve their problem.


Yes I already did that, and the consensus was that people wanted 5+ KB.

Try using the executioners as flankers and see how it goes. I find them excellent against certain troops as flankers: chaos, dwarves, orcs etc.

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While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."


Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:52 pm
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Dark Alliance: That is true, but most people who have said something about the cauldron, had a negative opinion about them (except maybe wintersdark).

Indeed lots of items still need to be tested, and that is why we should clarify our army lists. If we don't clarify wrong assumptions might be made.

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Tue Mar 18, 2003 8:08 am
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langmann wrote:
Reader of posts wrote:
langmann wrote:
3. The Black Guard eternal hatred has demonstrated itself to be acceptable. In certain instances it has traded blow for blow or more with things like a unit of grave guard. It seems to be a reasonable fix for that unit that does not put it over the top. In particular the BG seems very good against troops of lower WS and cheap infantry.


Langmann, if you have recently looked up any BG comments/threads you will know that lots of people still arn't happy with them. They they are too expensive and are still not enduring. Generally all dark elves are good against cheap low WS infantry so that argument doesn't stand. BG need to be able to go toe to toe with other elites, which they still cannot do, because other elites are way cheaper.



Most people have liked them or been satisfied.

These troops are even better against lower WS troops. The argument does stand.


Yes, and there are many more who still find that they are to expensive. We don't need an even better low WS killer unit, we need a reliable, enduring CC unit who can seriously hurt other elites (just like they can easliy hurt them). The eternal hatred rule is great, but it's not enough.

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Tue Mar 18, 2003 8:14 am
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langmann wrote:
Quote:
There are lots of different ideas about the current exes. Most of them seem to agree that something needs to be done about improving their results in the CC rounds after the first. Indeed the problem seems to be the bad performance of the exes in the second round. Thus the current solutions (5+ KB, 4 strength) don't really help the exes of their problem according to public opinion. I think a new thread should be started made by you (langmann), which should compile all these new ideas and let these be tested, since clearly the current solutions, don't really solve their problem.


Yes I already did that, and the consensus was that people wanted 5+ KB.

Try using the executioners as flankers and see how it goes. I find them excellent against certain troops as flankers: chaos, dwarves, orcs etc.


Sure they are great as flankers, and they are good against high Toughness troops, but they were that before (before the revision). Lots of people complain that for a shock unit, they just die to easily in the combats after the first. 5+ KB apparently doesn't fix that, it only makes them even more strong in the first round of CC.
The idea (when the GP was made) may have been that those rules were right, but if I'm not mistaken those rules were thought up without playtesting. So if people still complain about the fact they can't win any second rounds (except against UD or other low ws units), shouldn't we change them slightly and drop the current rules? If the new rules wouldn't be satisfactory, we could switch back to the old ones, or compare them and get the best of both...

P.S Could you please read my ideas about the CoB and army list clarification threads in this forum if you have time? I would really appreciate it...

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Tue Mar 18, 2003 8:23 am
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Furion wrote:
Langmann,

Has anyone thought about making a reference "sheet"[read:post] with all the simple revision rules on it? I know it would help me a lot to be able to glance at one sheet then have to remember and consult the website. If anyone else thinks this would be a good idea, I'll volunteer to write one up.


When I started playtesting, I made an army list which included all changes. I now have a Microsoft Word document that gives more or less the 'army section' of the book with descriptions of all magical items and all units (with upgrade), but no explanation of special rules. If it is any use, I don't mind placing it on the site or something (if that can be done).


Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:44 pm
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Executioners will inherently be much less effective after the first round of combat. This is the case for all Great Weapon armed troops. The only change proposed that directly improves this is Heavy Armor (and not by very much).

S4, 5+ KB, and Fear all improve Executioners survivability indirectly by giving them a better chance of maiming their opponents in the first round and thus not needing to fight a second round of combat. I don't think these guys are really meant to fight more than one round. They are shock troops. They go in, cause massive damage quickly, and move on. I think the best bet for making them better is to increase their offensive potential, in the hopes that it will help them break and run down more enemies, thus indirectly increasing their survivability.

As far as the Cauldron, I am actually quite excited to try it. I will have to proxy, but the changes seem quite good to me. It helps us wound, which is probably our biggest problem. Not sure what the beef is here...

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Tue Mar 18, 2003 4:13 pm
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@ ReaderofPosts:

BG are a reliable CC troop (stubborn on ld9 without a general, that is not going to run if it gets swarmed.) that can go toe to toe with Black Orcs (not stubborn), Grave Guard, Chaos Warriors, etc. I have already done the stats for BO and CW in the revision writeup. Considering we M5 which a lot of people seem to forget, I think they are reasonably priced. Grave guard are somewhat cheap compared to the rest of the big guns out there, but considering when you lose combat you lose grave guard, well I think that is balanced as well.

Anyhow lets consider a scrap between 15 BG and 16 CW (shield and hw), frontages of 5:

BG charge (unless you screwed up)

BG do 1.25 wounds.
CW do 1.0 wounds.

How do you like that? I'm not changing them to make them any better in HtH.

@ ReaderofPosts:

The Cauldron with shooting is very powerful. When we wanted poison, opponents screamed. I think the thought of our RBT slamming them into the ground scares them already. No need to make them more powerful.

@ Grogsnot: I agree about executioners for the most part. I will contact you by pm for something else we're considering.

As to the cauldron it needs more playtesting. I'd like to add to what grogsnot is saying by pointing out that as we all know we need to break something on the first turn, by getting more chances of wounding we are adding 1 or two extra CR points. That could easily mean a huge difference in break or not to break. When something is broken we all know it either gets completely run down (kiss 200 points goodbye) or never recovers (gets slammed again or runs away).

I think it needs to be playtested more.

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Tue Mar 18, 2003 6:44 pm
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Quote:
When I started playtesting, I made an army list which included all changes. I now have a Microsoft Word document that gives more or less the 'army section' of the book with descriptions of all magical items and all units (with upgrade), but no explanation of special rules. If it is any use, I don't mind placing it on the site or something (if that can be done).

so if you want place it as a .doc at philstemporarydruchiinet

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Tue Mar 18, 2003 7:22 pm
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Purple has done a brilliant job of typing out the revision in AB like format.

Download it from this site!

http://groups.msn.com/philstemporarydruchiinet

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Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:27 pm
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Guys check this out, it is an excellent job!

Well done Purple :D


Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:44 pm
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Thanks Purple :lol: :lol:

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Wed Mar 19, 2003 6:52 am
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I have troubles with downloading this file (some browser prblem... :/ )
Could you please pm me it, or send to chabasin@wsisiz.edu.pl?

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Wed Mar 26, 2003 3:16 pm
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