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Dark Elf Army Analysis 
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Shade

Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2003 6:14 pm
Posts: 111
I'll start a "basics" topic here and hopefully some more are going to fill in.

Things to consider:

Units, Monsters and Heroes need a PURPOSE, a battlefield role. Once we identify the roles of different units we can decide which rules are needed to reflect their role. Following is a try in determining the roles and possible solutions for several shortcomings.

The following was discussed at length within my gaming group. Of course, we're just a bunch of players and in no way infallible (as much as i hate to admit it ;) ).

LORD choices

1. Highborn
-> the general. Highly flexible in his gear choices and the units he may join this character may ride all sorts of nasty monsters and has the highest possible leadership in the army

2. High Sorceress
-> a good general with some flexibility in gear and mounts her primary goal is the use of destructive magic to utterly smite her foes into oblivion

IDEA: may use more than one arcane item

3. Death Queen
-> HtH killer. The witch elf hero may never be the army's general but is very capable to sacrifice any foe on the battlefield altar of Khaine. She's an infantry model and thus will strengthen the assault of infantry forces

HERO choices

1. Noble
-> Multipurpose hero who may lend his strength to infantry and cavalry. On top of that he's the only one who may carry the battle standard and is an able general should the needs arise.

2. Assassin
-> His role is twofold: first, he is a murderer supreme and hunts down enemy character models. Second he boosts infantry regiments as he is an infantry model himself, thus giving the often mediocre DE infantry units some much needed punch.

3. Beastmaster
-> His role is to support the "line breaker" units within the DE army. He supports the heavy cavalry, the monsters and chariots. He is strictly a support character to get the most out of the psychology warfare of the druchii as he supports the fear and terror causing beasts.

4. Sorceress
-> She is the magical backbone of the forces of the Witchking. Inferior only to the high sorceress she can cast terrible spells and weaken the enemy's will to fight.

CORE units

1. Corsairs
-> the main assault infantry. Purposes are: lending rank bonus, attacking light enemy infantry, advancing through heavy enemy fire and carrying a magical banner

2. City guard
-> multipurpose infantry. Main role: lend rank bonus, take the charge, annoy the enemy with lowpowered missle fire and engage the enemy's light units.

MAIN DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 1) AND 2)
Corsairs are more flexible in formation choices and may carry a magical banner to enhance their fighting prowess. City guard is more inflexible but also gets some light support fire to harass enemy troops.

3. RxB elves
-> Role: supportive fire, war machine guardians, flankers

4. Warriors
-> Role: (expensive) cannon fodder

5. Dark riders
-> Well, they're light cavalry and quite good at their job: mage hunters, war machine killers, flank chargers who divert the enemy and lure him into traps.

6. Harpies
-> Role: cheap screen, march move deniers, light enemy unit destroyers, destroyers of fleeing enemy units.

IMPORTANT NOTE
I moved harpies to "core" because their use is limited between such fine units as dark riders and scouts. On top of that they're really not that great with weak attacks and a very weak leadership. Oh, they're "0-1", too. I feel that by moving them to "core" the DE list will become much more flexible and interesting. To prevent abuse this unit should not count towards the mandatory "core" choices (like empire hunters or chaos dwarf hobgoblins). Their "role" on the battle field really indicates that they should be a (limited) "core" choice. This gives additional "core" choices, too. Something a lot of DE players want.

ELITE choices

Now it gets interesting. Especially to define the battle field purpose of the different "elite" units. IMHO this battle field role is not thought through very thoroughfully.

1. Scouts
-> Role: Infiltrators, march move interdictors, harrassers, fanatic drawers, frenzy exploiters. Everybody knows and loves scout units.

2. Cold one knights
-> Role: Heavy hitters and line breakers. This unit works in unison with other fast units as it needs to come to grips with the enemy fast.

IMPORTANT NOTE
An unreliable heavy hitter is not a heavy hitter at all. The hammer that doesn't come down in the right moment is worse than no hammer at all. Therefore i propose the "old" stupidity rules for this unit: Once the cold ones fought in HtH they are no longer stupid for the remainder of the battle.

3. Chariots
-> line breakers like the knights these units put more emphasis on working together with infantry. They provide the kills while the infantry provides the ranks and numbers.

IMPORTANT NOTE
Like the cold one knights these units suffer badly from unreliability. On top of that they suffer from the "chariot syndrome": "2 for 1" heavy chariots are much better than "1 for 1" medium chariots because they hit equally hard and are equally easily destroyed while beeing of different points cost and availability. I propose to give the crew "elite" status to come up for these shortcomings (i think EVERY "1 for 1" chariot should be crewed by elite soldiers). The unit gains +1 WS and +1 LD. (I'd also give the crew halberds instead of spears but GW's policy of "rules only for models we produce" forbids this step.)

(4. harpies)
-> removed

5. Witch elves
-> Role: light infantry mowers. Unfortunatly this role is taken by several others as well. Even more unfortunate is that these other units fulfill even more roles and are cheaper! I think this unit needs serious thought and while a lot of DE players quite like them (who wouldn't like some miniatures of half naked women with crazy rules ;) ) i feel that from a pure tactical point of view this unit needs a boost. My favourite idea is to make them work together with the cauldron of blood and the death queen even better. Thus, the points cost would remain the same but the concept of "combined arms" would be pushed even further.

6. Executioners
-> Role: As heavy infantry themselves they're heavy infantry killers, occasionally heavy cavalry killers. Unfortunatly they are not good at both unless pitted against other great weapon wielding units. Seriously this unit is the pinnacle of "self-defeating". A unit which fights against the enemy's heavy hitters needs hitting power AND staying power. Good examples are: empire greatswords, grave guard, (chosen) chaos warriors, sword masters. This unit needs a SERIOUS overhaul. As it is this unit has neither the staying power nor the hitting power (low strength, striking last...) to fulfil it's role. Either they need rules to make them fit their role OR they need a new role. As i really ran out of ideas with this unit i think the best way to deal with this unit is to leave them as they are (but including heavy armour at no additional points cost as they pay so much for their high initiative but cannot use it) but add a special "executioners banner". With such a special "executioners only" standard this unit could either be used as a small flanking force without that particular banner OR as a large unit of heavy infantry with this banner. i do not know what the exact abilities of this banner should be but something along these lines might be ok:

"Banner of Execution

This banner depicts Khaela Mensha Khaine in his aspect of the executioner. It is the ancient banner of the executioners of Har Ganeth and it was never lost in battle. So dreadful is the banner that any enemy unit in base-to-base contact with the unit carrying this banner must pass a leadership test at the beginning of each combat round or hit last against the executioners. In addition the enemy is at a -1 to hit against the executioners (OR the executioners are at +1 to hit) even if they passed their test.
High elves FEAR a unit carrying the banner of execution (in rememberance to the ultimate blood bath and the sacrifice of tens of thousands of high elves who died in Har Ganeth)."

Well, i think you get it. ;)

RARE choices

1. Reaper bolt throwers
-> Heavy artillery. Enough said.

2. Hydra
-> Monster type unit, purpose on battlefield: terrorrize the enemy, engage and stop enemy units, flanking force.
Unfortunatly again the hydra is not very well suited to her role. As a flank charger she's too slow, as a "speed bump" she has too few staying power. If we direct our view to other "monster type" units in other army lists we'll see some worrying differences between the "archetypical" monster unit and the DE hydra choice.

First off, almost all monster type units in the 200 to 300 points range (giant, stegadon, steamtank, dragon ogre drake, treeman, bone giant) have a lot of staying power, a lot of hitting power and some special attacks to boot. Out of all these special rules the hydra has the worst special attack (breathe attack), the slowest movement (5" compared to 6" for the average monster but as high as 15") and the least staying power (the average monster is either stubborn or unbreakable or else like "rooting"). Only the DOD misses a special rule concerning psychology or breaking but it has the best save, the fastest move and nasty attacks.

To make the hydra unique while maintaining these "monster type unit attributes" i propose the following:
a) movement upped to 6" (apprentices)
b) breathe attack upped in strength (maybe even able to breathe into HtH)
c) regeneration power
d) points cost around the 250 points mark

3. Black Guard
-> Role: Shock infantry with the ability to hold the line against all odds. While they're really able to hold the line their hitting power is a somewhat moot point. Up to 6 strength 4 hits is nothing to boast about - every orc unit gets more and better attacks when charging. And for purely holding the line they're really, really overpriced. Line-holders cost typically around 10 points per hit point and often come with 2 good attacks (slayers, flaggellants) or at least very good equipment (empire great swords, dwarven hammerers).

At 16 points per model they are a very, very expensive tar pit and the least durable tar pit on top of that.

What's in order? A serious overhaul. Eternal hatred at least gives SOME hitting power but they still lack survivability or a fair cost/effect relation.

Our ideas went along the lines of
a) eternal hatred
b) champion may choose 25 pts. of magical items
c) deflection/parrying: +1 armour save in HtH
d) points cost at 15 the max

4. Cauldron of Blood
-> Role: eye catcher ;) , overall support of the attacking forces, specialized support of witch elf units. Another piece that falls horribly short (pun intended ;) ).
A rather badly designed "army supporter" we may look at the "casket of souls" to view a rather well implemented similar unit.
The cauldron should give the DE army an edge and a really sharp edge to witch elves. The ideas are manyfold from range increase every round (thus creating an evergrowing "altar of Khaine" on the battle field until the whole fighting ground is one massive bloodshed and slaughter in the name of Khaine) to even more specialization.

Really, i am at an end on what to do with this.

Our group came up with some ideas but none is satisfactory. We feel that a simple range increase is not enough (after 3 games with the cauldron) and personally i think it could be a good witch elf supporter because ATM the witch elves are overpriced or overspecialized, however you want to look at it.

IDEAS
- range increase to 24"
- randomize shooting against keepers (while still maintaining the 4+/6+ save)
- if present each witch elf unit counts as under the effect of witch brew (including the cauldron crew)
- effect on witch elves has no range parameter (ie. all over the battle field)
- grants MR
- ...

General observations:

The core works quite well, the rest not. Especially the elite infantry and the heavy hitters fall short. I will not wander into the realms of magic items as i feel they're not that important. However, the magic banners need a serious overhaul and several more should be added - because they support units. Some nice bound spells should be included, too because the game itself has shown that one cannot create a magic heavy army without these. And DE should be able to put up a frightening magic phase.


That's it.

Next comes my (highly subjective) dark elf army list. Please keep in mind what i wrote above about the battlefield roles of different units.

Thank you for reading
Zorn

_________________
This is the future.
The dead shall outnumber the living, and those that remain shall be dragged in chains to the pits of Zharr to toil for the greater glory of Hashut.

And all will be blessed Darkness.

Hashut! Vorgrund! Zharr-Naggrund!


Mon Mar 17, 2003 10:56 am
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Shade

Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2003 6:14 pm
Posts: 111
Post 
SUMMARY
of
Dark Elf units

1. Corsairs
-> medium assault infantry

2. City Guard
-> medium defence infantry

3. Warriors
-> light infantry, cannon fodder

4. RXB Warriors
-> light support infantry, missle fire

5. Dark Riders
-> light cavalry

6. Harpies
-> light cavalry/extra light infantry hybrid

---

7. Scouts
-> extra light infantry, missle fire, scouts

8. Cold One Chariots
-> heavy support unit, assault

9. Cold One Knights
-> heavy cavalry

10. Witch Elves
-> light shock infantry

11. Executioners
-> medium shock infantry

---

12. Reaper Bolt Throwers
-> artillery

13. Black Guard
-> heavy infantry

14. Hydra
-> heavy support unit, mobile artillery, defence

15. Cauldron of Blood
-> army support, command center

We see a heavy emphasis on medium infantry and light units. Traditionally a war could be won by these units (Ancient formula: light cavalry beats heavy infantry and heavy cavalry; light infantry defeats light calvalry; heavy infantry holds against heavy cavalry and lastly heavy cavalry beats light/medium infantry).

But on the WH battlefield with it's historical "incorrectness" and it's multitude of fantasy elements (magic, special rules, etc) we need the other DE units, too.

Unfortunatly the rare heavy infantry and the rare heavy cavalry elements do not work properly and are way too expensive to employ them in a rational way.

We see a lot of medium infantry witch relies on support (heavy support units) - unfortunatly some of the medium units do work rather poorly, especially the shock infantry and on top of that the heavy support units fall short, too (stupid chariots, coward hydra).

At least for me the problems are a lot clearer now that i worked on this categorization:

1. assault infantry does not work correctly (executioners) or does not work within good price/effect parameters (witch elves)

2. heavy cavalry does not work reliably (cold one stupidity)

3. heavy support units are unreliable (CoC) or overpriced/underachieving (hydra: bad staying power and worse artillery function)

4. heavy infantry is rare to begin with (perhaps in character with the druchii) but worse - the black guard does not have heavy infantry stats and equipment! (only a special rule which qualifies them to "heavy infantry") All the while this unit DOES pay the price as if it were really good heavy infantry...

5. the army support is just bad (the CoB does nothing right...)

6. artillery would be good was it not for the "bad" hydra breath weapon...

On the good side:

If we manage to convince GW of Cityguard as CORE (and maybe harpies, too) the dark elf army would have an excellent CORE department!

Light infantry, supportive missle fire, light cavalry and different flavours of medium infantry goes a long way to make a beautiful and effective army.

Things to pick from the ELITE and RARE slots are:
extra light infantry (shades), heavy assault units (preferably chariots as the hydra is a RARE choice), artillery (reapers) and eventually heavy infantry (black guard).

I came up with 3 army templates

DEFENCE

Unit choices to choose from:

2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 12, 13, 14

Characters to take:

High sorceress, BSB, assassin

ASSAULT

Unit choices to choose from:

1, (3,) (4,) 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 15

Characters to take:

Death Hag, BSB, beastmaster

FANTASY

Unit choices to choose from:

5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 14, (15,)

Characters to take:

Highborn (on monster), beastmaster, noble



More on later :D

Regards
Zorn

_________________
This is the future.
The dead shall outnumber the living, and those that remain shall be dragged in chains to the pits of Zharr to toil for the greater glory of Hashut.

And all will be blessed Darkness.

Hashut! Vorgrund! Zharr-Naggrund!


Mon Mar 17, 2003 12:18 pm
Profile
Shade

Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2003 6:14 pm
Posts: 111
Post 
What does this lead to:

Here comes our gaming group's highly subjective and only as food for thought/discussion Dark elf army list.

I know, the revision isn't going to change and that's not what i want. I want to give a summary, an overview about how i see the dark elves, their flaws and potential corrections.

If my ramblings lead to new ideas then all's fine! ;)

CHANGES ONLY:

CHARACTERS
Lord
0-1 Death Hag: M 5, WS 7, BS 4, S 4, T 3, W 3, I 8, A 4, LD 9; Frenzy. May use Temple of Khaine gifts. May only join witch elf units. 150 points. May have additional hand weapon (+6). Poisoned weapons. May never be the army's general. 100 points of magic items and/or ToK, poisons.

REASON:
We all want a witch elf hero! Making her a LORD choice eleminates the "one too many hero" syndrome.

Hero
Beastmaster: Movement +1, Has control over Harpys, Hydrae, Manticora, Cold Ones, Dragons ->Any of these units may reroll psychology tests on the base leadership value of the beastmaster if within 6" of the beastmaster. (Any of these units may reroll breaktests as if the beastmaster was the battle standart bearer with a reach of 6"). May carry a spear (+4).
All beasts present in army may reroll their "to hit" roll ONCE during the battle, only if beastmaster is still alive.

Assassin
Gains killing blow for free. All ToK gifts max out at 25 pts. If killing blow is bought the assassin improves to 5+ killing blow.

REASON:
He needs to be a character killer. Otherwise there is no reason to use him. And do not cry "cheese"! Look at ratling guns, steamtanks or DODs.

CORE UNITS
City Guard: armed with light armour, shield, spear at 9 points. Rest as in WD rules, rxb upgrade costs +5 points.

Dark elf warriors: light armour, spear at 8 points. May buy shields (+1 pt) and swap spears with rxbs for +4 pts.

Dark riders: champion upgrade is only +7 points. RXB costs 1 point less. Shooting of the champion counts as poisoned.

Harpies: as are. do NOT count against the minimum number of core unit requirements.

REASON:
Rxbs are little bit pricey. Thus i reduced them by 1 point. Harpies: look my reasoning above. Dark rider champion: never used and way overpriced. Poison is a "fluff" reason, just like hochland longrifles for empire. The stories are full of the poisoned bolts of dark elves.

ELITE UNITS
Executioners: wear heavy armour. Get their own magic standart. Draich master gets 5+ killing blow.

Chariots: RXB cost 1 point less. Crew: WS+1, LD+1. Cold one stupidity is removed after first HtH combat.

Cold One Knights: LD +1, Cold one stupidity is removed after first HtH combat.

Shades: champion upgrade costs +7 points, champion shoots poisoned bolts.

RARE UNITS
Black guard: champion may carry up to 25 pts in magic items, eternal hatred, parrying, 15 pts.

Hydra: Beastmaster apprentices gain +1 M. Hydra (may breathe fire even when marched,) may even breath fire into hth. Regeneration. Flame attack at strength 4 or 5. 200 to 250 points.

Cauldron of Blood: randomize hits like usual (1, 2 keeper, 3-6 cauldron). Cauldron is indestructible. Keepers keep 4+ ward save vs. shooting/magic (6+ in hth). Increase range to 24". Witch elves are always affected regardless of range. If present all witch elf units count as under the effect of witch brew. Yes, even the cauldron's crew.

DARK LORE
Word of Pain: may be cast into hth.

TEMPLE OF KHAINE
all temple of khaine gifts cost 25 pts max. Assassins who take the killing blow gift improve their killing blow to 5+.

MAGIC ITEMS (IDEAS ONLY! DO NOT HARM WRITER! ;) )

Banners
Hydrabanner: new points cost is 50 pts. Mounts do not get an additional attack.

Banner of Nagarythe: in addition add +1 AS to the bearer and unit he is with.

Banner of Slaughter: +1d3 combat resolution once during battle (players choice), 25 points. OR +1d3 CR everytime, 50 pts.

Banner of Har Ganeth: as described above.

Banner of the Sea Serpent: All attacks are at +1 to hit. 50 points. Does not include mounts and characters apart from unit champions.

Blood banner: unit may ignore the first failed psychology test. 25 points.

There it is. have fun. :D

Regards
Zorn

_________________
This is the future.
The dead shall outnumber the living, and those that remain shall be dragged in chains to the pits of Zharr to toil for the greater glory of Hashut.

And all will be blessed Darkness.

Hashut! Vorgrund! Zharr-Naggrund!


Mon Mar 17, 2003 12:28 pm
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Shade
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Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2002 6:45 pm
Posts: 110
Location: Netherlands, Huizen
Post 
I agree, with a lot of your points. I espcially like making the harpies core. This would make more room for other special units, and thus allowing more diversity. I do recommend 0-1 choice though, otherwise we will have harpy units flying all over the place, litteraly :lol: .

I reallt like that banner for executioners, but I'm not sure. I certainly like the -1 to hit part, but I think that should only apply in combat, not against shooting (remember 5th ed swordmasters?).

The BG defiantly need a boost and a cost reduction, but I don't think 15 points is worth it 14 pts, with 4+ save would be allot better.

Finally, I don't like your idea (obsession? ;) ) about the Death queen. Druchii don't need a mass killer, druchii need a cheap cost effective assasin. My solution for the asssasin can be found in petition forum (maybe ill start a threat here).

_________________
War is not about who is right, but who is left.


Mon Mar 17, 2003 1:13 pm
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Assassin
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Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 11:36 am
Posts: 501
Location: Krakow /Poland
Post 
Quote:
6. Harpies
-> light cavalry/extra light infantry hybrid

Yes cor harpies are good choice but still 0-1 choice it should be
-> fast infantry cannons and BT killers who likes to eat sorc especially with war machines.

I'm the person who is missing Hag Queens as a Hero from 4th ed. I think that Wchih elwes should have kind of hero who could led this unit.

_________________
Innocence proves nothing


Mon Mar 17, 2003 2:04 pm
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Shade

Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2003 6:14 pm
Posts: 111
Post 
Thanks for the responses so far.

Two points:

1. Of course (and i mentioned it, too ;) ) the harpies need to stay at "0-1" and should not count towards the mandatory "core" choices. :)

2. The death queen: well, maybe it IS an obsession! ;) From a purely tactical POV the dark elf list does not NEED the witch elf lord - but for god's sake - this is a fantasy wargame! For whfb to continue it's great gameplay the game needs choices not only in the tactical department but also in the fantasy department.

And a lot of DE players wish for a witch elf heroine.

From a tactical POV i think the "death queen" is NOT a "no-brainer", mostly because a player gives up a lot of other good choices.

First, the death queen lowers the overall leadership of an army. Secondly, no more dragon riders or manticore riders (apart from the mediocre beastmaster). Third, this is an infantry choice! A character in an infantry unit is weaker than a rider and a frenzy infantry hero is a liability, too.

So either one gets to select
-good leadership and monster riding abilities (highborn)
-powerful magics (high sorceress)
-or a very good infantry model (death queen) and a weak general (as another hero needs to be the general, normally a 2 wound model)

I feel that if there were a witch elf "hero" choice then she would be a rather powerful character. But as a "lord" choice she's an interesting add-on and a flavourful choice. :)

Regards
Zorn

_________________
This is the future.
The dead shall outnumber the living, and those that remain shall be dragged in chains to the pits of Zharr to toil for the greater glory of Hashut.

And all will be blessed Darkness.

Hashut! Vorgrund! Zharr-Naggrund!


Mon Mar 17, 2003 3:26 pm
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 9:41 pm
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Location: Putting needles into people.
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At this point in time there will be no rules changes.

Many of the things you have brought up have already been discussed by the DE community and agreement has been reached upon what we have now in the revision.

We are waiting for Gav's comments on those revisions.

There are a few things I agree with, the BG champion getting 25 point magic weapon is one. Don't forget that the BG can take a powerful banner, are quite good in HtH: statistically they are roughly equal to GG, Hammerers, Chaos Warriors, Black Orcs, and yet can still M5. M5 is a great advantage people always forget.

However the CoK will never lose stupidity or they will become immensely expensive. Now please try out the beastmaster with the CoK and you'll find them very effective, and yet our opponents can still do something about ridding us of the beastmaster and so can at least counter majorly effective CoK. A unit of 10 CoK can own the game and that is something to consider...

_________________
While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."


Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:06 pm
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Shade

Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2003 6:14 pm
Posts: 111
Post 
Langman,

i know that no rules changes are beeing made - mainly i just wanted to do this analysis as i sense a feeling of unease with some units with most of the gamers.

The "who is who" of the DE army helped me to put my fingers on problematic areas eg. how many "heavy hitters" are in the army, who is responsible for which job, etc.

As i mentioned my rules ideas are just here for completion. I no way do want to change the schedule - my main goal was to provide all the playtesters with a template (including real-world references) to better examine the different units.

Btw. my cold one riders DID let me down last game against a BD army - i got the charge off against the wight knights but the cold ones couldn't penetrate the undead armour (i used a hydrabanner and the cauldron) and were easily dispatched... :cry:

Regards
Zorn

_________________
This is the future.
The dead shall outnumber the living, and those that remain shall be dragged in chains to the pits of Zharr to toil for the greater glory of Hashut.

And all will be blessed Darkness.

Hashut! Vorgrund! Zharr-Naggrund!


Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:05 pm
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 9:41 pm
Posts: 5170
Location: Putting needles into people.
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Zorn wrote:
Btw. my cold one riders DID let me down last game against a BD army - i got the charge off against the wight knights but the cold ones couldn't penetrate the undead armour (i used a hydrabanner and the cauldron) and were easily dispatched... :cry:

Regards
Zorn


You were very unlucky! But it happens. :cry:

_________________
While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."


Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:36 pm
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