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Cauldron Open for Business 
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Terror of the South
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Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2002 7:58 am
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Location: Perth, Western Australia
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these are changes that i propose and are changes i like

- one disple dice the pool
- WE in range magic resistance 1
- red fury increase to 24

bound spell are kind of cool also.

I cant think of a proper rule but i feel that perhaps allowing assasins, hags, and noble/highborns(with theri one ToK option) some kind of benifit in ToK items due to theri devotion and favouritism of khaine

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Mon Apr 14, 2003 10:31 am
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Highborn
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Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2002 1:46 am
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Location: Warsaw, Poland
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And how about this:

For each unit of Witch Elves in Cauldrons range controling player (of WE) may add one dispell dice to his dispell pool AND for each wizard/sorceress in its range the controler of that wizard/sorceress removes one power dices from the pool?

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Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:28 pm
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Highborn
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Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2002 6:02 pm
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Location: Europe
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is khaine really against magic? khaine is not khorne, don't forget this...
he's the god of murder... i suppose it's not very important to him, if enemies are killed by magic or in cc (his favorite lady is Morathi, and she's more a sorceress than a hag!!!)

the WE have no MR (and in the last ed. they had no MR, too) and i think this is a good hint... we shouldn't make a toy of khorne out of him.
that's why bound spells could still be an option (so the hag could get an useful upgrade for her 25 points).
another important point is that the CoB should have an effect on more units than WE. i personally have one greater unit of them (i'm painting them at the moment ;)) and i would be very angry if my CoB would only affect this unit. i'm sure most other DEplayer think so, too.
a great problem of our army is wounding enemies and here the (current) cauldron is very good! i don't think we should make too many changes. some guys tested the CoB with the range of 24" and this functioned very well...
to increase the effect on the WE we cuold give them a 5+ WS
with this cauldron i would be very happy and it wouldn't be too strong.

regards Morasul

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Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:38 am
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Noble
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Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2002 9:04 am
Posts: 413
Location: Hengelo, The Netherlands
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Morasul wrote:
is khaine really against magic? khaine is not khorne, don't forget this...
he's the god of murder... i suppose it's not very important to him, if enemies are killed by magic or in cc (his favorite lady is Morathi, and she's more a sorceress than a hag!!!)

Khaine may not be against magic, but the Temple of Khaine and the Convents of Sorceresses don't get along to well (remember the Sect Enmity rule)?
That's why I would like to prevent the Cauldron from encouraging to take mages, and even have it discourage to take mages.

Quote:
another important point is that the CoB should have an effect on more units than WE. i personally have one greater unit of them (i'm painting them at the moment ;)) and i would be very angry if my CoB would only affect this unit. i'm sure most other DEplayer think so, too.

I stated this before. The Cauldron should give it's biggest boons to the Witch Elves, but should not be Witch Elves only; that would make it rather restrictive. However, most people do consider this a pure Witch Elf artifact that shouldn't boost other Dark Elves too much. Therefore, I propose an indirect protection for the other units in the form of a psychology-like test .(Current proposal: Any unit wishing to charge a DE unit must pass an Ld test or hit on 6's only in the first round of combat)


Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:13 am
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Highborn
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Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2002 1:46 am
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Location: Warsaw, Poland
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Well...

The DE fluff says tha CoB is Witch Elves Artifact, so I cant realy imagine an army with CoB and without WE.

My idea of adding Dispell dices and removing Power dices was based not on the Khaine power (as I dont belive he would involve himself in ALL skirmishes and fights) but on insults, offensive gestures and acts of pure hatred that Witch elves perform to discourage their disliked enemies - wizards and sorcereses - that are stimulated by CoB presence - its somethng like a banner or symbol of strenght for them.

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Tue Apr 15, 2003 10:01 am
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Dark Rider

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:21 pm
Posts: 139
Location: UK
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Of all the ideas people seem to have, I think that giving the Cauldron an anti-magic rule is probably the most important.

One of the problems we have is with magic-heavy armies, this helps counter them somewhat, without resorting to loads of sorceresses or high sorceresses. I can imagine Witch Elves going to war without a decent way of negating enemy magic.

Other than that, Red Fury at 24 inches seems to have been pretty much accepted as necessary - rightly so.


Tue Apr 22, 2003 11:15 pm
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Hunter Of The Night
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Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 4:17 pm
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Ok, I came up with this slightly different version of the Cauldron while the site was down. I posted it on the temporary site but not many people made it over there and so I didn't get much response. It's designed to make the Cauldron a real help in a defensive force and has taken on a similar affect as the Skaven Screaming Bell.

The rules are posted in full below but to sum up: it includes everything that the old rules have except; the range is now 24", shooting against it is randomised, there is no-longer re-roll failed wounds in 1st round of combat, the following affects table has now been included.



0-1 Witch Elf Cauldron Of Blood Rare Choice 275 points


Special Rules:
Hate High Elves; Frenzy; Terror; Poisoned Attacks; Blessings of Khaine.

The Cauldron and its Guardians are considered to be a single entity and have a Unit Strength of 3. The Cauldron cannot move and its Guardians must remain within 2" of it. The Cauldron itself cannot be harmed. Any shooting hits scored against it are randomly determined as per war machines (discounting any that hit the Cauldron.) The energies of Khaine surround the Cauldron, giving the guardians a 4+ Ward save against missile fire (including magic missiles), and Magic Resistance (1).

In hand-to-hand combat the guardians are assembled in front of the Cauldron in the same way as a war engine crew, fighting with any enemies in base contact. The Cauldron cannot be attacked. The Guardians cannot be broken in combat. If all the Guardians are killed, the Cauldron is considered destroyed.



Blessings Of Khaine

Any Dark Elf units within 24" are blessed by Khaine and can become savage, bloodthirsty killers or the bane of the enemy, depending on the gifts Khaine bestows upon them. Roll 2D6 at the beginning of each Dark Elf player's turn before charges have been declared and consult the table below. In addition, all Witch Elf units within 24" are always frenzied and cannot lose their frenzy, if they have lost their frenzy and move within 24" they regain it immediately. The Baleful energies seeping from the Cauldron give all Witch Elves within 24" of it a 6+ ward save.



Blessings Of Khaine Affect Table

Score (2D6) Affect

2-5 All Witch Elves within 24" gain +1 attack.

6-7 All Dark Elf units within 24" hate the enemy.

8-9 All Dark Elf units within 24" are stubborn.

10 All enemy wizards on the table suffer -1 to cast.

11 All Dark Elf units within 24" strike first regardless of
initiative or whether they were charged or not.

12 All enemy units fear any Dark Elf units within 24"
of the Cauldron.


It's random but can provide that boost to the Dark Elf army where it needs it. If you examine them closely you will see that most of the affects are not that powerful or have a negative side to them. It is now designed for a more combat effective defensive army. I am unsure about the points cost and so don't know if it should be more/less.

Any input?


Thu May 22, 2003 3:29 pm
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Beastmaster
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Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 10:49 pm
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Location: Quebec, land of chill
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As i said before on the temp site, i really like this one, its good new idea, i think we are going in the right way, just my 0,02$ :mrgreen:

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Thu May 22, 2003 4:43 pm
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Highborn
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Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2002 6:02 pm
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Location: Europe
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nice idea /\ \/ /\, but i suppose these rules are too powerful... this requires alot of playtesting
i don't think GW will change the CoB-rules that much. perhaps when they're writing a new book but not when releasing only an article in the WD or in the next annual...

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Fri May 23, 2003 6:27 pm
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Dark Rider

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:21 pm
Posts: 139
Location: UK
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I like your suggestions ^V^ (can't spell your name...), they certainly would make the cauldron more interesting on the tabletop.


Sat May 24, 2003 4:22 pm
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High Sorcerer
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Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2002 6:55 am
Posts: 1309
Location: Clar Karond
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As probably one of the only people on the post who actually owns one, I can add a few things.

The +2 Dispell dice for the army is a good idea. Most people aren't going to be taking Sorceresses and the fluff indicates that magic is looked down upon in general. Seems like a good idea. Increasing the range to at least 24" is also good. I'm more into no range, but hey... Treat shooting at the Cauldron like all other warmachines also.

I think rather than a rare slot, just let it be as an upgrade to a unit of Witch Elves rather than a rare choice. Really isn't any reason to ever take it as a rare. RBT's are the chief choice, Hydras being a close second. Black Guard even have a closer spot in my list than the Cauldron. Say, about 100pts. If you scream "that's not enough", then let me ask you, would you use it at 175pts? Seriously? Remember, it only really affects one unit, the rest of the army is pretty much neglected by it. there's no foundation for an argument to make it 175pts. It's not worth 175pts. I'd still argue it's not worth 100pts.

Right now, my opponents let me use it for free. When opponents allow this, it shows they have no respect for the piece at all. And why would they? It's an overpriced paperweight. it looks neat, but only has a real effect on Witch Elves. The Bell is 200pts, it adds +2 powerdice, has a MR or 2, can destroy warmachines with a ring(lost many RBT's) or panic many units off the table in one turn. It acts as a chariot and has a ward save!!! So yes, 100pts for the Cauldron is about right.

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Sun Jun 01, 2003 10:17 am
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