Spearmen Open for Business

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Lord Veshnakar
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Post by Lord Veshnakar »

I think there are two different paths so to speak of thinking and Gav and some went down one and some went down other.... I think we need to think of the spears not as spears, but as drannachs, as offensive weapon. I used to picture spears as likes a weapon used like a pike like the sticks they brought up in braveheart when the cavalry charged in but I think gav is thinking of the dark elven spears like big swords on the end of staves, and I started to picture dark elven warriors with the drannach but being used as like a heavier sword with more momentum, cutting down foes, crushing skulls and such....I dunno hehe , thats just something I wanted to get out heh, I dont picture dark elf infatry poking, I picture them slashing....
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Post by Reader of posts »

Lord Veshnakar: A couple of posts in this thread (on page 1) back I came up with the same idea but nobody made a response to it. I'm not really sure if I like it myself, because it my cause abuse, but maybe not. It would definantly make spearmen unique and the tactical possibilties will be endless.

That's another nice spearwall rule. However it's not really a very powerful ability since you will still only be striking back with normal WS and S, but it's balanced.

Maybe it's time to highlight the ideas that we have come up so far, so noone misses them.


- Cheaper spearmen (8 points)

- When charged spearmen and enemy failes charge, spearmen can counter charge.

- +1 strength first round of combat.

- +1 strength first round of combat when taking a charge and always armour piercing

- Spearwall: +1 to hit with spearelves

- Spearwall v2: -1 to hit against spearelves

- Spearwall v3: Casualties can still fight back

- Spearwall v4: -1 to hit against spearelves and +1 to hit with spearelves

- Citizen levy: fight in 3 ranks

- Tactical supiriority: Free reform at the end of each movement phase
Last edited by Reader of posts on Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Naram sin »

Reader let’s make a poll who like which option. Personally I like Tactical superiority and my version of spearwall.
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Post by Reader of posts »

Good idea Naram Sin, I will make a poll right now.
I forgot to add the counter charge ability to the list of ideas, so I shall edit the orignal list. The way the rule should work IMO is the following:
If a spearmen unit chooses to hold as a charge reaction when charged and the enemy fails it's charge, the spearmen can counter charge and make a charge toward the enemy. The (original) chargers can only choose to hold as a charge reaction. This move is made in the opponent's charging phase.
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Post by Naram sin »

That is wery nice!!!
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Post by Draichlord »

Way back in earlier days when there was a norse army list, they had a thing called "shield wall". It basically gave spearmen with light armor and shields a 4+ armor save. We have that in Garrison formation and I think we need something different. I'm not for fight in 3 ranks(personally I'd love it) unless all elven races got it......which I think they should. My rpg leader, Shadowspite, suggested they can have option to be used as halberds on EVERY turn provided the use /benefit of shields is disallowed by front rank when doing so. I guess spears in 2nd rank would attack past them and still have shield benefit.
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Post by Maelis »

I got one question - Do we REALY NEED SPEARLEVES?

We have Rxbowelves, Citguards and Corsairs for light CORE infantry so do we REALY need another unit? Rxbows work well for shooting, Cityguards for defending and Corsairs for agressive attacking, so what else do we need?

We are thinking about Spearelves UPGRADE, but isnt Cityguard formation the one?

I would make our CORE list like that:

Dark Riders
Corsairs
Drannach Warriors (Cityguard)
>"druchii name for rxbow"< Warriors

and thats all! I REALY dont think we need another redundant unit, besides "standard" speareleves never fitted Drak Elf fluff.

What can be better on attack that Corsairs with SDC and 2A and on defence like Drannach Warriors (Cityguards)with 4+ AS and ability to shoot charging enemy straight in the face. There is no place for spearelves, so lets erase them from our list (you can still create unit of Spearelves by choosing Drannach Warriors WITHOUT rxbows in front line).

Now all this debate about Spears seems to be like inventing the circle again and we dont need another redundant unit.

Lets better concentrate about choosing RIGHT option for Execs - they still dont have approved fix (while I think that Cityguards have fixed spears more hen better).


(in fact all this discussion about spearelves realy suprised me, because I thought that Cityguards demand in our Petition realy SOLVED the problem).
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Post by Jargobae »

i am really against alot of these movement extra abilities. I think we should try and concentrate on the ideas based on the spear not the movement of the elves.

This is my favourite option for spearelves(like you care ;) )

Spear elves drannachs are armour piercing and always +1 to hit in close combat

Hey this adresses the uniqueness of the elves hold the special kind of spears
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Post by Dark reaper »

Well, then we are taking away an (should be) important part of our army, but you are right that corsairs are better at attacking and city guards are better at defending, but Gav also talked about a point reduction, that may have worked if they became 8 pts w/shield, at 9pts with shield they are too expensive compared to the others. I don't know, maybe you are right about dropping them, but I think we sooner or later will find something really smart that makes them useful.
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Post by Purple whisper »

I think there are a couple of things to consider when changing the Spear-armed warriors:

We want the spear-armed Warriors to be different from the Corsairs and the Garrisson formation
This means that AS upgrades are not a good idea (to similar to Garrisson), and neither is always fights in two ranks (to similar to Corsairs).

We do not want to upgrade the Garrisson Formation any further
This means that you will have to be careful with upgrading the actual spears (the equipment); the City Guard uses the same ones. So their should be a good reason why they cannot use them. I would like the Army List entry to read: "Any number of Warriors may exchange their Spear for a Repeater Crossbow for +3 pts/model. If not all of them do so, the unit must adopt Garrisson Formation and trade their remaining spears for an inferior model." :)

There must be a good reason why only Dark Elf (spear-armed) Warriors have this rule
For a lot of the proposals, it seems unlogical that only DE Spearelves can do it. Quite often, you'd have to extend the rule to all DE Warriors at least (sometimes including Garrisson Formation(which is often not desirable)).
A few examples:
- Using Spears as Halberds: Not only does the Garrisson Formation use these spears as well, the Black Guard uses halberds. Why wouldn't they be using this combo-weapon and opt for the inferior halberd.
- Countercharge: Why can only the Warriors counter-charge? Haven't the Executioners and Black Guard been trained in a similar way?


Because of these reasons, there are only a few ideas I find feasible at the moment:
- Some forms of the Spearwall. However, this is often to similar to the Garrisson's +1 AS
- A bonus on the charge: These could be useful (Garrisson can't profit from this bonus. However, so far they often are too weak. However, +1 S on charge is sometimes better then Corsairs (against T4 or high AS)
- Free reform: Though this is most likely to strong and should be limited a bit, I really like this idea. It would really complement the DE playing style. Though I would expect other Warriors to perform this feat as well, the other DE units can be easily excluded from this rule: Garrisson Formation is too inflexible, Executioners and Black Guard have Heavy Armour which slows down to much for this procedure, Witch Elves are too much of a crazed mob for this delicate procedure and Corsairs are navy and haven't had this training.

At the moment, I would go for a (downgraded) version of the reform rule.
Last edited by Purple whisper on Tue Apr 15, 2003 10:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Maelis »

OK, but what for? Do we realy need it?

Our Cityguards (Drannach Warriors - I realy hate the CG name :) ) are something unique just like HE 3 ranks fighting or arrows with armour piercing for WE archers.

I would make the Drannach Warrirs unit like this

8 pts per model
+1 pts option for a shield
+1 pts option for upgrade to Cityguards formation
--- +3 pts per rxbow option for front rank

and thats it. They are Spearelves, they are Cityguards, they are the sollution for all the spears bitz that we throw away from Dark Elf Warriors Plastics Box Set.

Is still something more needed?

If you rely want some rule for spearelves, then think about the poisoned blades, but I dont think we need ANYTHING else in this subject.
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Post by Purple whisper »

Maelis wrote:OK, but what for? Do we realy need it?

Our Cityguards (Drannach Warriors - I realy hate the CG name :) ) are something unique just like HE 3 ranks fighting or arrows with armour piercing for WE archers.


Garrisson Formation has been a nice addition to the army, and it does provide an use for your spear-armed models. However, it does not provide a use for a regiment of Warriors armed with spears. So, now we are looking to make that regiment a useful choice as well. This need not be a big rule that is unique to the army, something small might do as well.
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Post by Reader of posts »

Purple wrote:- Free reform: Though this is most likely to strong and should be limited a bit, I really like this idea. It would really complement the DE playing style. Though I would expect other Warriors to perform this feat as well, the other DE units can be easily excluded from this rule: Garrisson Formation is too inflexible, Executioners and Black Guard have Heavy Armour which slows down to much for this procedure, Witch Elves are too much of a crazed mob for this delicate procedure and Corsairs are navy and haven't had this training.

At the moment, I would go for a (downgraded) version of the reform rule.


I agree that giving all spearmen units the reform rule would be too powerfull. It also is a bit a hard to fit in the fluff to (like you said, so how about this:

Spearmen 8 points:
Spear, shield, LA

One spearmen unit in the army can be upgraded to superirior trianed for +2 (3) points.

Superirior trianing: Spearmen unit can make a free reform at the end of it's movement phase.

In this way we get cheaper spearmen and we can have the free reform abilty. With this rule you arn't be allowed to take lots of spearmen small units, so you wont be able to abuse the rule in this way. We also get cheaper spearmen, so we can get the best of both worlds.

What do you think?
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Post by Naram sin »

Reader you hit the spot with your Superior training we can say why one unit has something that other hasn't got - see Purple post.
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Post by Sulla »

Dark Alliance wrote:CLARIFICATION
Gav sees the Dark Elf army very much as an offensive army and he prefers to encourage the use of Spearmen if at all possible. So much so that he is open to suggestions of a points cost reduction and a special rule to increase their effectiveness.

Fighting in three ranks however is NOT on the table as he sees that very much as a defensive HE rule. He is giving us the opportunity to develop our own special rule here.

You have two weeks to do this due to print copy deadlines. Please keep this thread on topic - Spearmen only.


Hmmm, offensive spearmen?

Give those tin-openers of theirs armour-piercing for fluff value (slightly better against enemy infantry for no points increase)

And give them "ferocious assault" Spearmen fight in 2 ranks when they charge. No points increase either, they were already worse than corsairs.

This should make them about equivalent to corsairs. Corsairs get there in better shape but spearmen are slightly harder hitting...
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Post by Sulla »

Dark Alliance wrote:CLARIFICATION
Gav sees the Dark Elf army very much as an offensive army and he prefers to encourage the use of Spearmen if at all possible. So much so that he is open to suggestions of a points cost reduction and a special rule to increase their effectiveness.

Fighting in three ranks however is NOT on the table as he sees that very much as a defensive HE rule. He is giving us the opportunity to develop our own special rule here.

You have two weeks to do this due to print copy deadlines. Please keep this thread on topic - Spearmen only.


Hmmm, offensive spearmen?

Give those tin-openers of theirs armour-piercing for fluff value (slightly better against enemy infantry for no points increase)

And give them "ferocious assault" Spearmen fight in 2 ranks when they charge. No points increase either, they were already worse than corsairs.

This should make them about equivalent to corsairs. Corsairs get there in better shape but spearmen are slightly harder hitting...
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Post by Sulla »

Dark Alliance wrote:CLARIFICATION
Gav sees the Dark Elf army very much as an offensive army and he prefers to encourage the use of Spearmen if at all possible. So much so that he is open to suggestions of a points cost reduction and a special rule to increase their effectiveness.

Fighting in three ranks however is NOT on the table as he sees that very much as a defensive HE rule. He is giving us the opportunity to develop our own special rule here.

You have two weeks to do this due to print copy deadlines. Please keep this thread on topic - Spearmen only.


Hmmm, offensive spearmen?

Give those tin-openers of theirs armour-piercing for fluff value (slightly better against enemy infantry for no points increase)

And give them "ferocious assault" Spearmen fight in 2 ranks when they charge. No points increase either, they were already worse than corsairs.

This should make them about equivalent to corsairs. Corsairs get there in better shape but spearmen are slightly harder hitting...
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Post by Sulla »

Hmmm, offensive spearmen?

Give those tin-openers of theirs armour-piercing for fluff value (slightly better against enemy infantry for no points increase)

And give them "ferocious assault" Spearmen fight in 2 ranks when they charge. No points increase either, they were already worse than corsairs.

This should make them about equivalent to corsairs. Corsairs get there in better shape but spearmen are slightly harder hitting...
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Post by Sulla »

Hmmm, offensive spearmen?

Give those tin-openers of theirs armour-piercing for fluff value (slightly better against enemy infantry for no points increase)

And give them "ferocious assault" Spearmen fight in 2 ranks when they charge. No points increase either, they were already worse than corsairs.

This should make them about equivalent to corsairs. Corsairs get there in better shape but spearmen are slightly harder hitting...
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Post by Sulla »

making spearmen more offensive


Ferocious assault; spearmen may fight in 2 ranks when they charge.

Brutal spears; spearmen use brutal spears which count as armour piercing.

No points change.

This makes them roughly equivalent to corsairs. Corsairs will get there in better condition but the spears will hit slightly harder (as it should be really, since pirates shouldn't fight as well as soldiers).
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Post by Sulla »

making spearmen more offensive


Ferocious assault; spearmen may fight in 2 ranks when they charge.

Brutal spears; spearmen use brutal spears which count as armour piercing.

No points change.

This makes them roughly equivalent to corsairs. Corsairs will get there in better condition but the spears will hit slightly harder (as it should be really, since pirates shouldn't fight as well as soldiers).
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Post by Langmann »

I think the free reform would be better suited to corsairs first of all, and secondly make a better banner than anything else.

Secondly I hate to say it but DE may be an offensive army, but they are certainly not fast.

Really the army is centered around cold ones as mounts, and thus our chariots are slow heavy hard hitters, as are CoK. If anything the HE with designer fast cav that M8 are the quickest army.

I think the DE army has some elements that make them fast hard hitters, corsairs, dark riders, move & shoot missile weapons, witch elves, black guard, executioners, but really are more of a merger between this and slow hard units like I spoke of before. I think DE should be the heavy hitting army of elves. Not necessarily the raiders. While we trade slaves, it doesn't mean we cannot conquer with elven might.

Therefore I really like the idea of the spearmen being very cheap and possibly coming with heavy armour. That way you could make a large unit that can take a charge from all cavalry rather cheaply. (Remember pretty much no cavalry can beat a unit of spearmen unless the cavalry is stacked with a lord/hero or it has autobreak function with outnumber...).

I think spearmen are defensive by nature, and anything that changes that to make them better is just going to make corsairs, executioners and witch elves useless, or pigeon hole the spearmen into a role where the only cheap plastic unit we have is only useful on certain battlefields.

Finally it makes garrison formation/cityguard an attractive addition to spearmen without making spearmen obsolete. (Garrison would cost 10 points/model, 13 for rxb as usual.)

I think DA has hit the nail on the head.
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Post by Scactha »

The newest guy on the board also think langmann is correct. Prefer a cheaper core than yet more special rules.
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Post by Ivelios »

I agree that giving them more offensive abilities would make corsairs the useless option. If you give spearmen fight in two ranks on the charge and AP they are a better offensive unit than corsairs which is wrong. Even an offensive list could use a defensive unit or two, and that's what spearmen are, spears are a defensive weapon and we shouldn't change that.

I don't think hvy armor is a good idea (although it is my favorite of the ones mentioned). If we give spearelves heavy armor then there is no reason why warriors in garrison shouldnt get it, and that would make them very good, 3+save and fight in two ranks is to much. Because of the difficulty in giving spearmen an abililty that garrison warriors wouldnt also get I think a point reduction is the best idea, spearmen don't need special rules.
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Post by Langmann »

@Maelis and others:
What Dark Alliance is looking at is a 2 point reduction in spearelves. One point reduction would not be enough, I think, to persuade me at least to not use as many corsairs. I think with that, HE and WE should also get a 1 point reduction in theirs.

I know it may seem cheap but it actually stacks up quite nicely statistically against other units which can still swarm us. Also we don't get any special rules that other spearmodels seem to get such as:

"Empire detachments"
"Skaven weapons teams, live to fight another day"
"Undead cause fear, raise dead"

@ Ivelios: I like what you said.

BTW Ivelios, we could make some fluff that says that heavy armour isn't flexible enough to allow the cityguard to fight with handweapon and shield plus the spears to also fight in two ranks. Thereby preventing rediculous dwarf like saving throws for the front ranks of CG.
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