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Playtesting Results I 
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 9:41 pm
Posts: 5170
Location: Putting needles into people.
I know this may require a lot of work, but that is what it is all about. If you love the army it will payoff in the end.

Now Here are the instructions:

New rules are NOT being accepted, new changes are NOT being accepted. Changes will only be made on the basis of playtesting. That is final.

Please follow the next few rules exactly and post your comments in THE PLAYTESTING THREAD ONLY. If you take part in this we ask you to play test strictly according to these guidelines. Any posts made here which involve any other items, units, changes, new ideas etc WILL be deleted. So here goes......

Please consult the revisions documents published in the petitions forum for the new rules. Please DO NOT deviate from the rules, playtesting of listed rules will only be accepted. Please make 1000pt and 2000pt armies for testing.

Playtesting Guidlines.

1. Playtest anything you like. Any scenario as well.
2. State Specific Scenario played.
3. State complete army lists from both sides (roughly).
4. Prepare a rough map of the setup.
5. Record concisely what happened on each turn.
6. End result including numbers ie: Draw DE 999 HE 958.

Please address the following questions at the end of your testing results :

1. How effectively did the revision function, was it up to expectations? How?
2. Will this change make a significant difference, how?
3. Would you feel that the Dark Elf revision is now "cheezy" if you were playing AGAINST it? How? Why?
4. Are there some ways these changes could lead to significant abuse, or completely unrealistic situations? How?
5. Did the revision function co-operatively with the rest of the army? How?
6. Should there be any restrictions on it's use? How?
7. What did your opponent think of the revision, with reasons.

In addition, please post any general observations on how the revised units worked for you. Particularly if they are in any way over powered.

I will answer and address questions in this post please keep your eyes open for it.

Last point of note : If you are not in agreement with the need for a DE revision, or are not happy with the revisions mentioned above, I respectfully ask you to post your comments in the appropriate threads in the petitions forum. Any such comments posted here will be deleted. We do NOT want this to get off topic.

Thanks in advance for your help and HAPPY GAMING!!!

Message from Gav Thorpe to Dark Alliance:

>From: Gavin Thorpe <XXXXX>
>To: gary moore <XXXXX>
>Subject: RE: Druchii net DE revision
>Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:36:21 -0000
>
>Glad that's sorted out, then! With playtesting, I always believe that the
>best approach is to recreate the destination of the army - that is, let
>people play as and how they want. At the end of the day, that's where the
>army needs to stand the test, and which is why we will always receive
>feedback after a book has been released because it is then free to roam in
>its natural environment. The term playtesting conjures up images of a
>scientific process, meticulously recorded and analysed. In truth, it's more
>a case of letting people do what they do and keeping notes as you go along.
>To ensure some consistency, it's usually best to get battle reports
>submitted in a similar format. This should include both forces used, a
>description of the terrain (or preferably a map, no matter how rough), and
>a
>concise turn by turn account. The result also needs to be clearly reported!
>All comments and questions should be addressed at the end of the report,
>rather than in the body of the text, as this makes it easier to ensure all
>comments are read and any issues raised are not lost in the turn-by-turns.
>
>There is also two ways of dealing with the information. Firstly, a matrix
>of
>what armies the list has faced and whether it was a win lose or draw gives
>you the most basic and important statistics. You will need to reset this at
>regular intervals if there are ajor revisions. In particular to this
>project, it would be an interesting trial to spend a week or two compiling
>results based on the unadjusted list, wo give you a benchmark to work
>against (perhaps you're already doing this, I'll pop over to the site this
>afternoon and check it ou - having been there for a while).
>
>In addition to that, compile a list of questions and comments and then
>review them on a regular basis. I prefer not to answer questions or
>feedback
>on a piece-by-piece basis as this can lead to stuff being left out or
>fogotten, or repeated - simply transfer all comments to a single feedback
>file and then go through it one comment at a time once a week or
>fortnightly
>(weekly at the start, fortnightly later on). This also ensures that weight
>of opinion shows through, rather than individual opinion.
>
>Hope that helps (some day soon, due to frequent requests, I'm going to
>write
>a piece on playtesting for publishing on the web).
>
>GAV
>

_________________
While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."


Fri Mar 14, 2003 12:39 am
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Master of the Red Legion
Master of the Red Legion
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Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2002 1:06 pm
Posts: 7037
Location: Land of Chill
Post 
OK, here are the results from a 2150 pts game I played last night (vs Daydreamer), DE vs HE. It should be noted that we didn't get to finish, so only the first 4 turns are recorded for this pitched battle.

The lists:

DE list:

Highborn
dragon
cloak of nightmares
well of souls
enchanted shield
HA, lance

Sorc
L2
dark steed
staff of slavery

Sorc
L2
seal
scroll

DR x 5
musician
RXB

DR x 5
musician
RXB

DR x 5
musician
RXB

CG x 20
full command
4 RXBs

COK x 5
musician

COK x 5
musician

Shades x 6
bloodshade

Hydra

HE list:

Prince(ss)
claw of devastation
dragonscale shield
PoH
DA, barded horse

mage
L2
seer
channeller
silver wand

mage
L2
ring of fury
scroll

Spears x 16
full command

Spears x 16
full command

archers x 10

swordmasters x 20
full com
banner of sorcery

chariot

reavers x 5
spears and bows

DPs x 7
war banner

2 eagles

RBT

Terrain: Lots of terrain this time, essentially my bane in this game.

----------hill-----------------------------------hill-----------------hill----
----------------forest------forest-------------------hill---------forest---
-----hill-------------forest---------forested hill--------------------------

Deployment:

--RBT-eagle---DPs---spears--reavers-archers--spears--SMs--chariot-eagle
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--DR--------COK--------DR---dragon--COK------CG---hydra----DR

The battle:

HE get first turn

HE1:

units move towards DE lines, master of thron scroll (it should be noted that he used the revised life for both of his mages)

DE1:

COK charge an eagel that got too close, eagle flees, failed charge
no effective magic
DR shooting wounds the other eagle (right)

HE2:

DPs charge COK on right (my bad for forgetting how far they can go) as does the chariot. Chariot fails, DPs succede.

Again, getting 3 dice from the banner of sorcery :(
DR on right with the sorc get wiped out by master of stone
sorc all alone now take a wound to father of thorn
shades wiped out by ring of fury (my bad there too as I got rather miffed about almost getting the sorc killed)

2 DR die to RBT fire, 2 other to archer fire

DPs break COK (easily with the prince in there) and pursue into the hydra

DE2:

DR charge the RBT
DR suicide charge spearmen (to get the mage in the unit)
CG charge DPs in the flank

magic ineffective (again)

dragon (who is now behind enemy lines with LOS on 4 rear charges or so) kills 6 archers with his breath weapon

DR kill RBT crew, overrun
DR kill one spearman and one wound to mage (I got most upset over that as it was sooo close with 4 attacks, 2 of which are re-rolled)
CG does 1 wound to prince and one DP dies to the hydra, who takes only one wound, DPs break, warbanner capture by the hydra :? but they are not caught

HE3:

spearmen with the mage charge the COK
spearmen and chariot charge CG
DPs rally, face the hydra

master of wood with IF on the hydra kills the apprentices and wounds the hydra some more
hydra passes the reactin test

COK kill the mage but lose a knight, Ld9 comes in very handy and they stay :shock:
CG lose a few guys, but still lose by 8 or so and flee and are caught, but the chariot ends up in a woods

DE3:

Hydra charges DPs
dragon continues to move around the SMs since he had no charge on them and everyone else charged or pursued out of range or sight

nothing for magic except the well of souls runs out (silly me for even trying really)

shooting kills an archer
dragon breath kills 6 SMs (bladelord should have died but he passed his armour save :shock: )

hydra kills 2 DPs, no wounds back, DPs stay
COK kill 2 spears but break and run, pursuit not catching

HE4:

2 charges at COK who flee off the board
DPs break the hydra (prince moved into contact) and recapture their warbanner

DE4:

dragon gets vexed and charges the SMs in the front

doomblot kills the mage who left the SM unit

many SMs dies to the dragon, but not enough (dragon hits SMs on 4s :shock: ), dragon loses but stays

END of GAME

results:

HE 1583, DE 1116

minor victory to HE (though I maintain that if I had the extra turns, things would have been different :roll: )

As usual, the revision functioned well, not making anything over powered and not making anything particularly weak.

The upped LD for COK does make a real difference as I did not fail a single stupidity test all game and was able to stay in that fight with the spearmen longer, as knights should. It really makes them a much better choice for the DE army. I tried the musicina in the mix this time as well, thinking they might be able to supplant DR in the flanking role with CG as core, but they are still not better than DR.

The decked out highborn was never once attacked! :evil: The whole idea behind that one was to make him a 6 wounded monster with a 2+ AS and 4+ ward and he was never wounded once. The well of souls though did not appear overpowering either, though it never once got off, indicating to me that pwer level 5 is good for it, though there was concern that that high a level for an item that can be used to good effect by a highborn was a bit high.

The staff of slavery is also pretty darned cool. It did very littel this game, but it showed its potential to be just as good and just as annoying as the ring of fury.

Over all, there was nothing horrid to be said except that Daydreamer was ill equiped to fight a dragon and in the end had nothing that could have dealt with it, though that is no fault of the GP.

So, this wasn't really a great test, and I'm sorry for that, but I thought I should post it anyways since I hope to be using the same list later today in another game to compare the two results.

_________________
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The storm is coming...
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Sat Mar 15, 2003 3:16 pm
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Hunter Of The Night
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Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 4:17 pm
Posts: 2152
Location: England
Post 
A little report for you to ponder over...

langmann wrote:

1. Playtest anything you like. Any scenario as well.

2000 Points Vs High Elves. 6 Turns. No scenario.

2. State Specific Scenario played.

No scenario.

3. State complete army lists from both sides (roughly).


Dark Elves

(Red = Revised items/units etc)


Characters

Highborn (General)
Manticore
Heavy Armour
Sea Dragon Cloak
Gauntlet Of Power

Shield Of Ghrond

Sorceress A Level 2...................Chillwind, Soulstealer.
Dark Steed
Dispel Scroll
Darkstar Cloak

Sorceress Level B 2...................Chillwind, Doombolt.
Dispel Scroll
Seal Of Ghrond


Assassin (Killing Blow)
Chill Blade



Core Units

15 Cityguard
Shields
5 Repeater Crossbows
Lordling

15 Cityguard (Assassin in here)
Shields
5 Repeater Crossbows


6 Dark Riders
Repeater Crossbows
Musician

6 Dark Riders
Repeater Crossbows
Musician


Special Units


5 Cold One Knights (LD9)
Full Command
Banner Of Cold Blood


Rare Units

Reaper Bolt Thrower

Reaper Bolt Thrower


Army Total = 1984




High Elves

Characters

Prince (with Shadow Warriors)
Shield
Biting Blade
Reaver Bow
Shadow Armour
Helm Of Fortune
Pure Of Heart

Mage A Level 2..............Forked Lightning, Uranon's Thunderbolt, Comet.
Seer
Channeler
Silver Wand

Mage B Level 2.................Fury Of Khaine, Flames Of The Phoenix.
Seer
Channeler
Ithilmar Barded Steed
(General)


Core Units

15 Spearmen
Full Command

15 Spearmen
Full Command

10 Silver Helms
Heavy Armour and Shields
Full Command
Lion Standard


Special Units

20 Swordmasters
Full Command
Banner Of Sorcery

5 Shadow Warriors

5 Shadow Warirors


Rare Units

Repeater Bolt Thrower

Repeater Bolt Thrower


Army Total = 1998



4. Prepare a rough map of the setup.

...............................................................................
.....Trees..................................................................
...............................................................................
........................................Hill..........Trees.................
..............Building...............Hill....................Building....
....................Buil................Hill...................Buil..........
....................ding................Hill.................................
.........Hill.......Buil.................Hill.................................
.........Rocky..............................................................
..........................................Trees.............................
..........Hill............................Building...........Rock........
..........Hill Tr..........Rock.......Building..........................
..........ees..................................................Hill..........
..........Well................................................Trees.......
.............Tree.............................................Hill..........
...............................................................................


.................................................................................Left Side
.....Sorc B................................................................
..COKs......................................Prince......................
............City G(A)........................SWs..........Spears...
...DRs......................................................................
...............................................................Mage...SHs
............City G.....................................RBT.....A........
...............................................................................
...HighB..RBT............................................................
...............................................................................
....DRs...................................SWs............................
...................................................................SMs......
...............................................................................
...............RBT...............................................Mage.B.
.........Sorc A........................................RBT...Spears..
..................................................................................Right Side

City G = Cityguard
Sorc = Sorceress
HighB = Highborn
COK = Cold One Knights
DRs = Dark Riders
RBT = Reaper Bolt Thrower
(A) = Assassin in unit

Spears = Spearmen
SHs = Silver Helms
SW = Shadow Warriors
SMs = Swordmasters
RBT = Repeater Bolt Thrower



5. Record concisely what happened on each turn.


High Elves went first. Intrigue At Court made Mage B the General.

HE Turn 1

(Use the left and right sides on the map to determine the unit. e.g. left Spears = the Spearmen nearest the left hand side)

Swordmasters and the Right Spearmen moved forward to the edge of the hill.

Magic did nothing.

RBT killed Manticore. :shock:


Dark Elf Turn 1

Cold One Knights pass stupidity.
Both Cityguard units moved round either side of the building in front of them. Sorceress B moved into the cover of the building. Sorceress A moved into the rocks on the right hand flank. The Dark Riders began to march down each flank. The General now on foot, moved behind the right Dark Riders. the Cold One Knights moved directly forward.

Magic not in range.

Shooting ineffective.


High Elf Turn 2

Left Spearmen move up level to the Prince and his Shadow Warriors. The Silver Helms follow up behind. The Swordmasters turn right and move behind a rock. The Right Spearmen turned and moved onto the edge of the right flank. The Shadow Warriors without the Prince in moved back though their woods.

Uranon's Thunderbolt on the Right Dark Riders. Irresistable force. Kills 4. Next spell miscasts. End of magic phase. Dark Riders don't panic thanks to Highborn right behind them.

The 2 surviving Dark Riders from this magic are killed by a RBT.


Dark Elf Turn 2

Cold One Knights pass stupidity.
Right Cityguard move on towards the right flank. The left Cityguard go behind the hill in front of them. Remaining Dark Rider unit goes down left flank opposite Spearmen. Sorceress A goes near to the right RBT. Sorceress B moves down the length of the building towards the enemy. Highborn goes behind right Cityguard.

Sorceress A kills Mage B with Doombolt. Chillwind on RBT dispelled.
Sorceress B magic not in range.

Dark Riders fail to hit left Spearmen. RBT takes a wound off left RBT and kills a crewman.


High Elf Turn 3

The Shadow Warriors with Prince reveal themselves. The other Shadow Warriors turn to face Sorceress A. Swordmasters move onto rock. Right Spearmen move in front of Sorceress A. Left Spearmen and Silver Helms move level with Shadow Warriors with Prince on left flank.

Uranon's Thunderbolt dispelled. Forked Lightning miscast. Mage A suffers 1 auto wound.

Right Shadow Warriors (aka no Prince) fail to wound Sorceress A. Left Shadow Warriors kill 1 Dark Rider. Prince with Reaver Bow kills 2 Dark Riders. RBT wounds Sorceress A. Second RBT kills 2 right Cityguard.


Dark Elf Turn 3

Cold One Knights pass stupidity on a 9.
Cold One Knights go down left flank. Left Cityguard move onto hill. Dark Riders cut down in between the left Cityguard on the hill and the Shadow Warriors with the Prince and moves near RBT. Sorceress B marches up next to them. Sorceress A moves beyond right Spearmen on right flank. Right Cityguard aim towards right Spearmen. Highborn follows behind them.

Doombolt kills 1 crew from right RBT. Sorceress B miscasts. End of magic phase.

Further wound to left RBT from one of my RBTs. Cityguard on hill wounds Prince.


High Elf Turn 4

Right RBT turns to face right Cityguard. Right Spearmen march forward. Right Shadow warriors walk back after Sorceress A. Shadow Warriors and Prince move next to Dark Riders. Swordmasters wheel to face Dark Riders.

Magic ineffective.

Right RBT kills 4 of right Cityguard. Shadow Warriors without Prince (right) kill Sorceress A. Shadow Warriors with Prince (left) kill one Dark Rider. Prince shoots and kills rest of Dark Riders. Right Cityguard pass panic test.


Dark Elf Turn 4

Cold One Knights pass stupidity.
Highborn joins right Cityguard and they march towards right spearmen. Left Cityguard moves towards edge of hill top.
Cold One Knights march closer to left spearmen.

Magic ineffective.

RBT kills 2 Swordmasters. Second RBT kills 1 right Spearman.


High Elf Turn 5

Left Spearmen charge Cold One Knights (stand and fight reaction.) Swordmasters move up next to Shadow Warriors with Prince. Other Shadow Warriors move back towards Swordmasters.

Magic ineffective.

RBT kills 1 left Cityguard. Right Shadow Warriors kill 1 right Cityguard. Left Shadow Warriors wound Sorceress B.

Spearmen kill 1 Cold One Knight.
Cold One Knights fail to do any damage. Cold One Knights break, are pursued but are not caught.


Dark Elf Turn 5

Left Cityguard charges Shadow Warriors with Prince (hold reaction.) Assassin is revealed and challenges Prince. Accepted. Right Cityguard with Highborn charge right Spearmen. Cold One Knights rally on 9. Sorceress B runs in between Swordmasters and right Shadow Warriors.

Soulstealer kills 2 Shadow Warriors and 7 Swordmasters. Sorceress B gains 3 wounds.

RBT kills 2 Swordmasters. Other RBT kills 1 Swordmaster.

Assassin easily kills Prince but no killing blow :( . Left Cityguard and Shadow Warriors do no damage to each other. Cityguard win due to rank bonus, Assassin's kill and outnumbering. Shadow Warriors break and are run down. Pursuit takes Cityguard into RBT. Assassin butchers the lone crew member.
Right Cityguard and Highborn do 3 wounds on right Spearmen. Spearmen do 3 wounds back on Cityguard. Spearmen win due to standard, outnumber and rank bonus. Cityguard and Highborn flee and are run down.


High Elf Turn 6

Left Spearmen charge Cold One Knights (hold reaction.) Right Spears move towards RBTs.

Mage A miscasts the Comet Of Cassandora allowing Sorceress B to kill the remaianing 3 Shadow Warriors with Soulstealer.

RBT wounds Sorceress B 4 times, killing her.

Left Spearmen do nothing to Cold One Knights. Cold One Knights kill 5 Spearmen. They break and Cold One Knights pursue, wipe them out and overrun into Silver Helms. Cold One Knights kill 1 Silver Helm. Silver Helms fail to kill any Cold One Knights but still win on rank bonus and outnumbering. Cold One Knights pass their break test.


Dark Elf Turn 6

Cityguard with Assassin turn and move towards RBT.

No magic.

RBTs kill 5 Spearmen.

Silver Helms do no damage. Cold One KNights kill one Silver Helm but still lose combat by 1. They don't break.

End Of Game


Dark Elves - 1520

High Elves - 989


Dark Elves win by 531 = Minor Victory.




6. End result including numbers


1. How effectively did the revision function, was it up to expectations? How?

The revision functioned well. I enjoyed fighting a battle without using Corsairs and the Cityguard threw my opponent who didn't know whether to treat them as Spearmen repeater Crossbowmen or something else. The battle was a complete bloodbath which I was losing heavily up until the last few turns when I got into combat. I was lucky I made some good pursuit moves which allowed me to charge into other units. This was however poor tactics on my opponent's half. Two main revisions didn't have a chance to prove themselves: The Assassin never managed a killing blow and the Shield Of Ghrond was useless in battle. However I think this does reflect well on its proposed points reduction. The Banner Of Cold Blood performed a little too well in the battle. I used the version that allows stupidity tests to be taken on 3D6 with the highest score discarded. The Cold One Knights never suffered a stupidity test and only passed the test once on LD 9. My opponent agrees and thinks that we should change it or increase it's points cost to 30. The new Chill Blade is another item I feel is too good a bargain. My opponent sees how Assassins should be character killers but 3 S5 attacks with any wounds (saved or not) taking away an attack back is lethal with this guy. Although the charcater he used it on was already down to 2 wounds he only had a 6+ re-rollable ward save. I think perhaps increase the points cost to 50 points so the Assassin can still take it, it just adds a bit more to make it fair.

2. Will this change make a significant difference, how?

The Banner Of Cold Blood is the only real thing I see the need for changing. 30 points my opponent and I agreed on for the 3D6 roll. That and perhaps the Chill Blade. As mentioned above the combination with this and an Assassin makes for one ultra character killer. I still don't want an army that relies on magic items to make it work.

3. Would you feel that the Dark Elf revision is now "cheezy" if you were playing AGAINST it? How? Why?

I asked my opponent about the revised stuff I used and overall he doesn't think it was cheesy. I agree knowing that we have put forward a lot of proposed changes so GW have a larger choice. We definitley won't get all of our proposed items. The Cityguard are almost as good as Corsairs at combat and make up for this slight loss with the added firepower. The Cityguard did not dominate in the shooting phase, however, they did not take any charges. If they had, the stand and shoot reaction and the extra rank would have been a serious blow to the enemy. However, Lothern Seaguard can do it and Cityguard have already been playtested for their own list. This should be one of the most straightforward changes.

4. Are there some ways these changes could lead to significant abuse, or completely unrealistic situations? How?

Not that I saw or can see.

5. Did the revision function co-operatively with the rest of the army? How?

The units worked pretty much in harmony. The Cityguard proved to be very multi-functional providing missile fire then close combat assault. Bolt Throwers were their usual selves, as were Dark riders. This army was sort of experimental as I used an offensive lore of magic combined with hard hitting offensive stuff like Cold One Knights, but combined them with two primarily defensive units. However these units proved adequate against Elves on the charge. However charging in offensively is sorta my playstyle :) .

6. Should there be any restrictions on it's use? How?

One restriction I can possibly see appeasing those opposed to the power of the Banner Of Cold Blood is keeping it at 20 points but if a unit fails its stupidity test it cannot move or fight at all that turn. This could represent the magical power of the banner affecting the Cold One's too much meaning they temporarily fall into a complete stupor, totally oblivious to everything around them.

7. What did your opponent think of the revision, with reasons.

My opponent thought the Cityguard were completely fine being as they are just warriors in a diferent formation and with a diferent equipement manner. As a High elf player he isn't opposed to Cold One Knights having LD 9 because dragon Princes have that too. He thought the Banner Of Cold Blood prevented stupidity a bit too much and suggested a 10 point increase. The Chill Blade he admitted was powerful but was not a battle winner. Everything else he thought was fine.

In addition, please post any general observations on how the revised units worked for you. Particularly if they are in any way over powered.

Not that I saw. Before I got into combat I was losing as High Elves have superior magic choices and slightly better shooting ranges. However, once I got into combat I took over as Dark Elves generally do against High Elves due to hatred. The result was only a minor victory which shows that I did not dominate the game and from the report it shows of the large casualties on both sides.


Anything you want to know, just ask. (I know the battle report may be confusing :lol: )


Sat Mar 15, 2003 11:06 pm
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Master of the Red Legion
Master of the Red Legion
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Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2002 1:06 pm
Posts: 7037
Location: Land of Chill
Post 
OK, the game I was planning to have vs Brets turned into a three way battle vs Brets and Skaven. The list is not the same as above, but rather the shades and one DR unit were eliminated, so its was closer to 2K.

Bret list:

Sir Stephan's garison

Duke(Sir Stephan) ,Heavy armor, shield, lance, riding barded warhorse, cuirass of fortune, ladys champion sword, knights virtue( ignores panic from commoners)

Pladin(sir Marcel) BsB(does not count towards hero max) has heavy armor, rding barded warhorse, sword of might, knights virtue

Pladin (sir Alphonse)heavy armor, shield, riding barded warhorse, wearing mithril great helm, has lance of the quest, knights virtue, hand weapon

damsel ( lilly the enchantres) has hand weapon, level 2, 2 dispell scroll, riding barded warhorse

damsel ( buttercup)handweapon, level 2, dispell scroll, has chalice of malfleur

10 knights of the realm(kotr)full command

8 kotr full command with duke and bsb

20 men at arms(m@a) hand weapon, light armor , shield, spear full command

15 bowmen with damsel of foot hand weapon, long bow, light armor, full command

14 bowmen hand weapon, longbow, light armor, full command

7 squires hand weapon, longbow, skirmishers, game keeper

6 grail knights full command


Skaven list: (don't know exactly)

General was a Lord with bands of power

3 sorcerers (one with the storm daemon)

3 units of 30 clanrats

25 stormvermin

warp lightning cannon

rat swarm (5 bases)

8 gutter runner

globadiers x 5

globadiers x 5

2 rattling guns

2 warpfire throwers

The terrain:

---building------------------------------------------------------------hill-------------
--------------------------------------------building---------hedge-------------------
-------------------forest---------------------------------------buidling--------------
------------------------------------------------------hill--------------------hill-------
------------------------------hill---------------------------------forest----------------
-----forest------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deployment:

We deployed in arcs. Brets taking the lower left corner, DE lower right, skaven middle top.

Brets (in a clockwise arc): archers, grail knights, spears, archers, knights (general and BSB), squires (in wood), knights

Skaven (starting at the left): globes, clanrats, clanrats, stormvermin, swarm, cannon, clanrats. Gutter runners deployed in the woods facing the Brets

DE (starting at the bottom): DR, DR, COK, dragon, CG, hydra, COK

The Battle:

DE get first turn, folloed by skaven and Brets last as he takes the Blessing

DE1:
all moved up towards the skaven, though DR angling towards Brets

Sk1:
moves his swarm around to the side from which the DE are coming

Brets:
moves everything up, towards the skaven, miscast ends magic phase

DE2:
moves up further

Sk2:
swarm now right in front of the clanrats facing the oncomming DE
level 2 does 3 wounds to the dragon and one to the caster
lighning cannon hits lord on dragon, ward save protects him (rolled 5)

Brets2:
moves up some more, but now hindered by the gutter runners

DE3:
DR, now deep in bret territory, shoot a squire
rest of the army moves up towards the skaven
dragon now gets wary and moves away from the skaven, hoping to get out of line of fire

Sk3: withdraws some units from the oncommng brets, concentrating lines in a last stand formation
dragon kis killed to warp lightning :(

Brets3:
squires charge DR (with sorc) and kill 2, but the DR slay 3 squires and win, but they stay anyways

DE4:
starting to move away from skaven (as the plan had been to wait for the brets to hit his lines) and regrouping now that there is a swarm in the way and the general has no dragon
lord joins CG
shooting does 2 wounds to the swarm
squires killed

Sk4:
move away some more from the brets
storm daemon runs out

Brets4:
continues on towards the skaven

DE5:
soul steal the archers by sorc, who panic and run towards the forest with the gutter runners
shooting does 1 wound to a lone paladin and 1 wound the the swarm (the paladin and a heavens mage were in a woods in the corner, the paladin had moved to protect her from the DR)

Sk5:
gutter runners charge the archers (with the other mage) and catch them
moves away the lightning cannon from the charge arc on the bret general's lance
COK get fried by rattling gun and warpfire

Brets5:
charge clanrats with grail knights (only 2 left at this point) and other clanrats with general's lance
kills a few rats, but they stay (general close)

DE6:
DR charge the lone paladin and the lone sorc
CG move forward
highborn soul steals the clanrats (with well of souls), over half the unit goes down but passes the panic check :evil:
both the bret lone characters flee off the board, the DR pursuing off as well

Sk6:
strmvermin charge general's lance in the "flank"
lightning cannon kills 2 knights, and 3 gutter runners (but when rolling to wound 4 spearmen, he rolled 4 1s :shock: )
rattling gun goes wild and kills a few clanrats
Brets lose the combat and flee

Brets6: General's lance rallies, other lance charges the stormvermin

DE7: COK fail their stupidity test and, being too close, charge into the bret general's lance in the front
CG charge the rat swarm (my impatience at getting shot with nowhere to move)
hydra also charges the swarm
COK win the combat (as the brets failed their fear test) and run down the unit
2 swarm bases go down to the combine assault

Sk7:
gutter runners charge the other bret archers
cannon kills some CG, and the hydra :evil:
archers beat the gutter runners and run them down (he puts banners in the arhcer units)
stormvermin drive back bret lance

Brets7:
archers kill one DR, rallies fleeing knights

DE8:
both DR units charge the archers, run them down
swarm now destroyed

Sk8:
No charges since its the last turn and he thinks he's winning
shoots the CG unit to hell, blowing the whole thing away

Brets:
last lance does nothing as it is too far away

End of Battle

VPs: (hard to say really so these are estimates)

DE: 1400

Sk: 1100 (he killed rather rather little besides my army which was character heavy)

Brets: somewhere less than 500 (he got unlucky and killed rather little)

So, in reality a Skaven victory (as he had most of his units left and that dratted cannon) but points wise a massacre for the "evil" forces. :?

In this case, the revised list functioned rather poorly the way I was using it. Again it was proven that the small COK units were not as good at flanking and movement as DR (which was again to be expected) but that they are still quite the hard hitters, though not hard enough to hope to break clanrats when attacking in the front.

Again, my rather nasty lord did prettymuch noting, his dragon being shot out from under him rather early (my mistake there too). His items, however, could still not be successfuly tested as he only had to use his ward save once though on the whole he was not overly nasty in combat (as he had no points left for magic weapons), though the six wounded lord is rather nasty (though neither opponent seemd to mind).

The staff of slaver saw very little use here as I was silly and split my magic againt both opponents, though it does help to draw out the dispel dice every now and again for the well of souls to get that better chance of working (yet after that first time the players catch on and save the dice).

My opponents had no lasting commentsabout anything, though the Ld 9 for COK was a bit shocking to the skaven player at the start. The 4+ ward was also slightly frowned upon in the beginning, but as the lord never really came into play, none of his power was disputed, espicially since he large combat monster was killed by the warp lightning cannon.

As always, the revised units functioned well with the rest, though having too man of those small COK units isn't the best idea with so many other DR units when playing skaven. CG were certainly not overpowered and could still be reduced to ash by skaven guns and are certainly not in any way shape or form infantry monsters. In this case, corairs would likely have been a bette investment.

The hydra is pretty much the same: a decent helping unit. The lower points do not truly effect anything and the M 6 for the apprentices just allows it to be a bit more safe while its coming up to attack. However, by hiding the apprentices behind, it is very apparent that the combat effectiveness of the hydra is reduced as the apprentices are never getting into combat (always being too far away), and hence creating more of a balance.

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Sun Mar 16, 2003 5:21 pm
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Post 
1. Playtest anything you like. Any scenario as well.
Pitched Battle
2. State Specific Scenario played.
Pitched Battle
3. State complete army lists from both sides (roughly).

Druchii 2000pts

1 Noble @ 132 Pts
General; Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield
Sword of Battle [25]
Touch of Death [25] Pts [KB]
My own comments: I took him because I wanted to test if a heavy KB army would be to powerfull when used in cooparation with the Cauldron.
So now he has 4 att + KB raising his chances for a KB.


1 Sorceress @ 175 Pts
Magic Level 2
Darkstar Cloak [20]
Dispel Scroll [25]
Comment: This one explains itself.


1 Sorceress @ 155 Pts
Magic Level 2; Lore of Shadow
Dispel Scroll [25]
Comment: This one explains itself.


17 Cityguard @ 248 pts
6 crossbows; spears; light armour; shield; standard; musician
1 Lordling [10]
Warbanner [25]
Comment: I figured that with a Cauldron, one should make a defensive army, so CG were taken instead of corsairs

5 Dark Riders @ 115 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Musician
Comment: Too good to mis out

6 Dark Riders @ 115 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Musician
Comment: Too good to mis out

11 Witch Elves @ 211 Pts
Frenzy; 2ndWeapon; Standard; Musician
1 Hag @ [12] Pts
Touch of Death [25] Pts [KB]
Comment: I wanted to get as much out of the Couldron as possible so I took lots of witch elves. The KB for the Hag could really help out, and again could be dangerous when she was in range of the Cauldron.

11 Witch Elves @ 211 Pts
Frenzy; 2ndWeapon; Standard; Musician
1 Hag @ [12] Pts
Touch of Death [25] Pts [KB]
Comment: see above

2 Reaper Bolt Thrower @ 200 Pts
Comment: Again, in a defensive army the reapers are really usefull. So they were taken. I needed some fire power and neither the Hydra nor the BG could offer that...

1 Cauldron of Blood @ 205 Pts
2 Guardians @ [0] Pts
Frenzy; 2ndWeapon
1 Hag @ [0] Pts
Frenzy; 2ndWeapon
Comment: Again the Cauldron would help my army get some KB's off, and help the witches in problems

16 Executioners @ 264 Pts [5+ KB]
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Standard; Musician
1 Draich-master @ [12] Pts
Comment: 5+ KB and cauldron? nuff said.

2000pts

Vampire Counts Army 2000

1 Blood Dragon Vampire Count @ 315 Pts
Blood Dragon; General; Magic Level 2; Full Plate Armour; Shield
Sword of Striking [30]
Red Fury [25]
1 Nightmare @ [0] Pts (In BK)

1 Necromancer @ 150 Pts
Magic Level 2
Book of Arkhan [25]
Dispel Scroll [25] (in ZoMbs)

1 Necromancer @ 140 Pts
Magic Level 2
Staff of Damnation [40] (In zombs)

19 Zombies @ 124 Pts
Standard

19 Zombies @ 124 Pts
Standard

20 Skeleton Warriors @ 210 Pts
Light Armour; Shield; Standard

5 Dire Wolves @ 50 Pts

5 Dire Wolves @ 50 Pts

8 Black Knights @ 265 Pts
Barding; Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician
1 Hell Knight @ [16] Pts

19 Grave Guard @ 290 Pts
Heavy Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician
1 Crypt Keeper @ [12] Pts

2 Spirit Hosts @ 130 Pts

3 Fell Bats @ 60 Pts

1 Banshee @ 90 Pts


Total Army Cost: 1998


4. Prepare a rough map of the setup.

...........................................................................
............................................wood.......................
................stones..................................................
...........................................crater..............wood..
........................Ruins.............................................
...........................................................................
............wood.......................................wood.........


..........................................Cauldron.....................
..DR..........DR.......WE...EXES.......CG..Rbt...WE.....RBT
............................................................................
............................................................................
............................................................................
............................................................................
....Ban.DW....BK...Zomb....Skel....Zomb... Spirit......Dw
...........Bats......................graveG............................

5. Record concisely what happened on each turn.

DE Turn 1:

Both DR units move up but try to stay out of range of the Dire wolves and Fell bats. City guard move up toward the zombies, and walk half their movement. The Witch elves next to the CG move full speed toward the zombies.

CG shoot down 2 zombies, even though they have to hit on 6's. RBT on right shoots 4 out of 5 Dire wolves. RBT on left shoots 3 out of 5 Dire wolves.

VC turn 1:

Entire army moves up. BK don't move full speed in fear of charge of exes.
Dire wolves on left move towards the rocks, and try to stay out of charge range of the DR. Fell Bats land beside the right side of the rocks, staying out of sight of both DR units. Banshee moves straight toward a Dr unit, in order to scream at them.

Banshee's howl doesn't reach the DR.

In the Magic phase, I let a raise dead spell pass which summons 7 zombies in front of the witch elves on the right. In this way I would have to charge them, and if I overan I would move into range of the hosts who would then tie me up. I was confident that I could beat both of them so I let the spell pass.

DE turn 2:

A DR unit charges the Banshee. Witch elves charge the newly created zombie unit. The other DR unit moves toward the rocks, in order to invite a charge from the fell bats or to react to another move they might make.
Witch elves move back a little, in fear for a charge of the Black knights.

Shooting is again quite effective. RBT on right fires at fell bats killing 2 out of 3. CG shoot down another zombie. RBT on left kills 2 Black knights with a single shot.

Witch elves destroy zombie unit and overrun 5 inches. DR unit inflicts a wound on banshee because it is outnumbered.

VC turn 3:

Spirit host charges the witch elves. The 2 Dire wolves charge the DR who are locked in combat with the banshee. The rest of army move forward. Fell bat remains stationary. The lone Dire wolf on the right moves toward the RBT on the right.

VC magic is stopped by both dispel scrolls.

Both Dire wolves miss their targets and the DR kill them. The banshee takes down a DR, but loses the combat so is killed by CR. The spirit host does a wound on the witch elves and loses 3 wounds in return.

DE turn 4:
No charges. The noble in the execs moves in front of the witch elves so they can't be drawn out for a charge by the lone fell bat. The victorious DR units moves toward the back of the undead army. Other DR unit wanted to charge the Black knights but failed it's fear test.

The shadow magic mage teleports the sorceress behind the undead lines, in order to cast soul stealer on the zombies, but that spell is halted by a dispel scroll.

Both RBT's can't see the black knight so they shoot at the skeletons who loose 6 of their number.

The combat between the WE and spirit host continues with the death of 4 WE. In this way the undead manage a draw.

VC turn 4:
Black Knights charge the noble in front of the WE. They precisely make it (damn my guessing skills). The Grave Guard turn around to face the Dark rider behind the army. The zombies beside the Black knights turn toward the other DR unit. The rest of the Army moves forward. Fell bat moves toward the back of the witch elves.

VC magic manages to raise a 9 big zombie unit in front of the exes, so the exes could not counter charge into the BK.

WE lose the combat to the spirit hosts :shock: and are run down by them. The Blood dragon, easily wastes my noble and overruns into the Witch elves behind them.

DE turn 5:
Exes charge new zombie unit. DR at the back of the VC army fail their fear test when trying to charge a zombie unit and necromancer. Other DR unit also fails to charge the Black knights in the back due to failing their fear test. City guard charge the spirit host.

The sorceress at the back of the VC army casts soul stealer on the zombies and kills 7 out of 17 zombies and inflicts a wound on the necromancer.

Shooting kills some zombies.

Combat: The exes waste the newly raised zombie unit and they overrun into the skeletons. Spirit host is destroyed by the CG. The black knights waste the witch elves and overrun of the table edge.

VC turn 5:

Zombies charge the DR unit which failed it’s fear test. They chose to flee and aren’t caught. Grave Guard charge other DR unit who also failed it’s fear test last turn. They chose to flee as well, and aren’t caught. Black knights return from their trip in the unknown (table edge), and march behind the exes, in hope of a charge next turn. Zombies face the city guard. Fell bat charges Cauldron. Lone dire wolf charges RBT.

The necromancer in the zombie unit facing the city guard, creates a large unit of 17 zombies in front of them. Other magic was halted.

The exes waste the skeletons in a dance of killing blows (with help of cauldron). Combat resolution finishes the skeletons off. They overrun into the Grave guard’s flank. Both the fell bat and the Dire wolf are taken down by the war machine’s crews.

DE turn 6:

City guard charge the new zombie unit. Both DR units rally and they occupy uncontested table quarters. No further movement.

The shadow mage finally casts creeping death on the Black knights. He rolls a 6 hits and 5 of the wound! That’s 5 Black knights less. The sorceress desperately tries to cast dominion on the black knights but it is dispelled.

Combat doesn’t really go well for the exes. The GG champ challenges the Exes champ and he is slain by the GG champ. The combat is still won by the druchii though, and 6 GG fall. The city guard waste lots of zombies and in the end 4 out of 17 zombies remain.

VC turn 6:

Black knights charge the rear of the executioners (  ). No further movement.

No magic.

Blood Dragon kills 5 exes and the Wight skill another. Exes bring 2 grave guard down, but to now avail. They flee and are pursued. The zombies facing the city guard are finally destroyed.



6. End result including numbers i.e.: Draw DE 999 HE 958.

Vampire counts 1105 – Druchii 853 = DRAW

Please address the following questions at the end of your testing results :

1. How effectively did the revision function, was it up to expectations? How?
Well, personally I expected more from the Cauldron of Blood. Although it helped me a couple of times, I think it really isn’t worth it’s points. I tried to take as much advantage out of it’s abilities as possible ( 2 WE units ), but all those abilities really weren’t worth the 205 points. Sure witch elves get a 6+ ward, but it’s still to going to win you any combats. Never losing your frenzy is also quite nice, but still not worth the points. And finally the reroll to wound ability. It was quite handy, and in hindsight it would have been smart to use the exes hand weapons in order to get more rerolls (5+ KB’s). The lots of KB units + cauldron didn’t feel cheesy at all, but that may be due to that both the hags and noble were finished before they even could use their ability. even if I had tested it, I don’t think it’s cheesy, because both units only get a KB on 6. In the end you still ay for rerolling KB’s. the extended range was nice, and I think it’s a good change. Look for my thread about the Cauldron

[color=cyan]2. Will this change make a significant difference, how?[/color]
No, the extra range won’t make a big difference. The cauldron still lacks. It’s nice to have that extra range, but It’s more the abilities of the cauldron which still don’t make it a considerable choice.

3. Would you feel that the Dark Elf revision is now "cheesy" if you were playing AGAINST it? How? Why?
No, the executioners did munch through 2 units with it’s 5+ KB but in the end they were easily destroyed by Mr. Blood dragon and pals. I’m really starting to think the executioners are good the way they are now.

4. Are there some ways these changes could lead to significant abuse, or completely unrealistic situations? How?
I thought combining the cauldron with lots KB units would be very powerfull, but it swas okay.

5. Did the revision function co-operatively with the rest of the army? How?Yes, except the cauldron (look for my thread).

6. Should there be any restrictions on it's use? How?
No, defiantly not.

7. What did your opponent think of the revision, with reasons.
He thought the executioners were okay the way they are, they still can be shot to pieces, and if you charge them, you still have a good chance of beating them. Weapon skill 5 was a problem for his dead guys though (hitting on 5’s), but that’s more of a Undead problem.

In addition, please post any general observations on how the revised units worked for you. Particularly if they are in any way over powered.
Look for my threat about the cauldron and solutions for it.



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Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:02 am
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Morathi's Favoured
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PART ONE


2150pts pitched battle against my son's O & G horde

My list -

Beastmaster with Master of the Wild, spear, the Tome of Furion and a manticore

Level 4 with the Hand of S'Tarra and a scroll ( general )
Level 2 with the Darkstar Cloak and a scroll

24 City Guard with full command and 6 rxb upgrades
10 Warriors with shields
10 Warriors with shields and rxbs
5 DRs with rxbs

10 Executioners with full command and the War Banner
5 Cold One Knights with full command
5 Harpies

15 Black Guard with full command

Figured I would try out a magic heavy infantry list, with the knights and Exe's as flankers to the two main infantry blocks.

O & G list -

Black Orc warboss on a boar ( general )
lVL 2 Goblin Shaman
Lvl 2 Goblin Shaman

Giant
2 Spear chukkas
Doom diver

Snotling pump wagon
4 snotling swarms
10 Boar boys
20 Black orcs
Unit of squigs etc, about 20 strong

24 Orcs
20 Night Goblins ( 3 fanatics )
20 Goblins
20 Goblins


I asked him to bring a horde and to play Black Orcs and Boar Boys.


Terrain - a 4 x 4 table! ( all we have space for and Jake set this up ). My side has a large hill to my left and a wood to my right. A small hut and a lump of rock in the centre of the board just inside my half. On his side a hill right in the middle of his deployment zone and a large bunch of rocks to his right.

Magic - Beastmaster got The Wolf Hunts and The Eagles Cry / Lvl 2 got Steed of Shadows and Pit of Shades & the Lvl 4 got Chillwind / Soulstealer / Dominion and Black Horror.

Orcs got -


Deployment - DEs left to right : Level 4 behind large hill. Rxbmen on top next to warriors. Executioners behind warriors. City Guard / Black Guard / COKs / level 2 behind wood. BM / DRs on extreme right flank with Harpies behind.

O & G left to right ( from his viewpoint ) : Night Goblins / Squigs with Goblins behind / Black Orcs with Goblins behind / Shaman / Pump Wagon / Doom Diver and spear chukkas on hill / Orcs with Boar Boys and General behind / Snotlings

I win the dice roll for first turn.

TURN 1

Fail stupidity on 11 and forget to reroll due to BM! ( Idiot :oops: ). Rxbs move forward 5" along with City Guard ( Jake has learnt my tactic of deploying less than 12" in so as to be out of range for most shooting and magic ). DRs move forward 6" with Harpies flying out in front of wood. Spearmen and Exe's move 10" & 8" forward respectively.

Magic kills 9 Night Goblins with Black Horror but they pass their panic test. The level 2 rolls a miscast followed by 12 on the miscast chart and promptly forgets she's a Sorceress ( stupid moo! ). All shooting misses.....

Night Goblins move 8" forward, Squigs fail animosity, Black Orcs march, pump wagon flies man! :cry: . Giant 6" forward. Orcs 8" with Boar Boys following closely behind. Magic does nothing. Doom diver kills 3 CG.

TURN 2

Fail stupidity again with a 10! BM reroll gives me a 6, Hurrah! :D DRs come across in front of wood and avoid NGs. Harpies fly over to Doom Diver. BM lands behind DRs hoping to charge Harpies in. Black Guard walk forward. LVL 2 moves into wood. Cast Eagles Cry on the Boar Boys but they pass their test. Cast Black Horror on them and they fail their test and run 7". Yippee! :D

The Hand disintegrates with a roll of 1 - 75pts down the swannee :cry: . All shooting misses again.

No greenskin charges. General & Boar Boys rally and all animosity tests passed. Pump wagon hits the DRs - DAMNIT! 3 Harpies die to Gaze of Mork but they pass their test. Magic charges the giant forwards towards the CG but stops 1/2" away. DRs die to 10 pump wagon hits and it overuns into the BM - DOUBLE DAMNIT :cry:

TURN 3

Coks roll a natural 7. The CG fail a terror test and flee 4" - TRIPLE DAMNIT! :cry: :cry: Harpies charge the Shaman. BG pass their test and charge the Giant. Lvl 2 fetches out the fanatics and she dies. The Wolf Hunts puts the Spearmen into the Orcs ( big tactical error - should have moved the Spearmen to the side and used this spell to cause a flank charge ) Lvl moves up next to the rxbmen on the hill again now. Shooting does nothing.

Starting to miss my RBTs now.

Spearmen cause no kills, nor do Orcs but they win CR and run down the Spearmen and hit the Exe's ( how many DAMNITs now?? ). BG take 3 wounds off the Giant while losing 2 but he stays there. Pump wagon kills BM and manticore takes 2 wounds off it. Monster reaction test is a 5 which keeps it there for the rest of the game. USELESS! Harpies kill the Shaman and overun into the Black Orcs to stop them charging my BG in the flank.

No greenskin charges. I fanatic dies, 1 goes into the Night Goblins killing 4 and they run off the table. Jake is pleased 'coz it takes away conjestion on the flank for him and he is free to advance more. He pased all animosity tests. All O & G units advance forward. Magic does nothing. I knight gets speared.

Combat - BG completely miss the Giant - even with Eternal Hatred, he kills 2 and stays there again! Manticore kills the pump wagon but can't go anywhere now so Jake will just avoid it if he has any sense. 3 executioners die, they kill 1 but lose CR and flee managing to get away from the chasing Orcs. I harpy dies but the other passes it's test to stay.

So, at the end of turn 3 the greenskins are swamping me, I have lost DRs / lvl 2 / the Hand of S'Tarra / BM / Spearmen and have CG fleeing and Executioners fleeing!

It will take some to turn this game around. If I can rally the CG and Executioners, cast Dominion on the Orcs to stop them charging me again, and beat the Giant then it will allow me to regroup and line up for some combined charges. The terrain will allow me to split his army in 2 as he chases me and the level 4 has now got magical superiority in the game. The Doom Diver worries me a little.........


Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:27 pm
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Hunter Of The Night
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I thought if a Beastmaster is riding a monster, and the monster is slain it doesn't have to take a reaction test and fights on as normal?


Tue Mar 18, 2003 5:56 pm
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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/\\// wrote:
I thought if a Beastmaster is riding a monster, and the monster is slain it doesn't have to take a reaction test and fights on as normal?

Yep DA needs to remember that. :D

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Tue Mar 18, 2003 6:45 pm
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Morathi's Favoured
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Yeh guys, I remembered that this morning when I woke up. Jake wasn't too chuffed when I told him 'coz it's my turn 4 when we recommence and the manticore is looking very hungrily at a unit of Goblins which should get him an overun into the side of the Black Orcs :twisted:


Tue Mar 18, 2003 10:51 pm
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Dark Alliance wrote:
The Wolf Hunts puts the Spearmen into the Orcs

The Wolf Unts can only be used on cavalry, chariots, a ridden or unridden monster or a swarm... Just mentioning it since this little mistake can influence the opinion (your's and opponent's) on the Master of the Wild's performance.


Thu Mar 20, 2003 10:47 pm
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Morathi's Favoured
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Oh bugger! :oops: So many new rules :lol:

Thanx for pointing that out. In this particular instance it won't have made too much difference to the outcome as he was gonna charge me in his next turn anyway, and he really is mullering me at the moment but I'm glad you picked it up 'coz we will re-run this game on Sunday probably anyway.

@ Langmann : I have 2 games to write up, 3000pts v Dwarves but the site is still screwing around being slow so I'll put them up just as soon as I can.

This coming week my tourney army goes up against the Empire on Thursday, with the Revision applied to it. ( Different Empire player ;) ) and I'm gonna play 2000pts against Wood Elves too :D


Fri Mar 21, 2003 10:04 am
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3000pts pitched battle against Dwarves - we played 2 games using the same lists both times.

Dark Elves

Highborn - cold one, ha, sdc, shield, Gauntlet of Power, Rod of Doom leading 9 COKs with full command and the war banner

Lvl 4 with the Hand of S'Tarra and a scroll on foot
Lvl 2 with the Well of Souls causing an I test on 2d6

BSB with ha, sdc, dark steed, Dread Banner leading 9 DRs with herald and rxbs

4 RBTs

18 City Guard ( 6 x 3 ) with full command and 6 rxbs
19 Corsairs with full command and the Standard of Slaughter, led by a noble with ha, Cloak of Nightmares and gw
20 Corsairs with full command and Banner of Relentless Assault

10 Executioners with ha, full command and 5+ KB

The thinking behind the unit selection is in the 'why we choose the units.......' thread.

Snow White's finest

The Anvil
Dwarf general in a unit of 20 Ironbreakers
Slayer Champion
Runesmith(s?)

30 Slayers !!!!
20 Warriors with hw, ha, shield, rune of battle
20 Hammerers

2 Bolt Throwers
Cannon
Organ gun

10 Crossbowmen
10 Crossbowmen

various runes and stuff i'll explain as we go along :?



To be continued..................


Fri Mar 21, 2003 2:34 pm
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THE END OF THE GAME AGAINST O & G ( posted here so you can all see I checked in my mistakes :oops: )

TURN 4

The Manticore charges the Doomdiver and falls 1" short but out of the charge arc for any of the O & G units. City Guard and Exes rally. Rxbmen turn to face the side of the advancing unit of Orcs, looking to support my Exes when Jake charges them. Magic - Black Horror on a 17 gets scrolled. Soulstealer dispelled. Shooting kills 1 Orc. Combat and the BG take the Giant to 2 wounds ( will he ever die!?!? ) Giant jumps up and down and promptly falls over killing a BG. At least he is down to 1 wound! The Harpy dies.


O & G turn - Doom Diver fail terror test and flee 7". The nearby Goblin unit fails and flees 9". All animosity passed. Jake forgets to charge the Executioners :D ( it was always dodgy it would get in anyway due to terrain ). The Squig herd advances and releases the hoppers - 1 BG dies. All fanatics die rolling doubles. The General & his Boar Boys move up towards the rear of the Orcs. Black Orcs advance up my right flank towards the combat with the Giant. No magic. Spear Chukka takes a wound off the Manticore & the other takes out a Knight ( test passed ). The BG finally kill the Giant and he falls into a building, away from the BG unit. All panic tests passed.

TURN 5

Stupidity roll is a 9 :D Manticore charges spear chukka who pass fear test. City Guard & Exes charge the front of the Orcs, rxbmen charge the side. :twisted: Knights charge the nearest Squig. BG turn to face the advancing Goblin unit and Black Orcs - a charge from them is unlikely due to a terrain bottleneck. Lvl takes cover behind the big combat on the hill. Generals unit takes BH, he loses a wound and the unit lose 4. They flee 12 " and end up behind their own lines. The Squig Hopper dies and the Knights overun into another. The Orcs lose combat and get run down by everyone. No killing blows. Manticore takes out the spear chukka and overuns into the next one. All panic tests made.

All O & G units rally. Shaman fails terror test and runs. No magic or shooting. Squig Hopper dies and the knights overun into the Squig herd unit. Spear chukka dies and the Manticore hits the General in the side.

TURN 6

BG charge the Squig herd unit to support the Knights. The side of the Black Orc unit is in line for the overun. Black Horror on a 13 takes out 5 Black Orcs from 16 hits. They do not run though. :evil: The rxbmen and the CG kill all the Snotlings. Combat - the Manticore misses but the Orc general doesn't. He loses combat resolution and flees 14" while they chase 9".Squig herd dies big time and the Knights hit a unit of Goblins behind and the BG hit the Black Orcs in the side. Panic tests passed.

O & G final turn - no charges. General takes a table quarter. Squig Hoppers contest the others. Shaman rallies. Magic dispelled. Combat - BG kill 1 BO and lose 2 themselves. Drawn combat. Goblins die to knights, fail break test and are run down.

Game over. DEs get a terrific turn around and a Solid Victory.

DEs 1729pts
O & G 742 pts

Revision effects -
1. Cold One ld9 saved me once. The BM was a help too when I remembered it! ;)
2. BM - great idea, just unfortunate he died so early in the game due to a tactical error by me. The additional magical ability is good to have.
3. Exes killing blow - not 1 ( hardly overpowered ) and 5+ save not needed in this game really too much.
4. Hand of S'Tarra - what can I say? Other than it encouraged me to take a lvl4 who proved very effective in the later part of the game.
5. City Guard - just great as I have said before.
6. BG - even with Eternal Hatred it took forever to kill the Giant. A pity there were unable to get into combat with the BOrcs.

Jake is still unperturbed by the Revision, he was a little nervous about my magic dominance at the start of the game but it did go tits up very early. He said the BM should come with light armour at least.

Overall quite a good list this one and I will use it again against O & G. It offers a great variety of units which can work together well and offered the chance to turn a game around, due really to having so many different units.


Mon Mar 24, 2003 10:57 pm
Profile
Noble
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2002 9:04 am
Posts: 413
Location: Hengelo, The Netherlands
Post 
The results of a 2000 pts Pitched Battle against Empire:

Dark Elves
Noble (132)
Blade of Ruin, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield

Sorceress (180)
Level Upgrade, 2 Dispel Scrolls

Assassin (157)
Two Handweapons, Rune of Khaine

10 Warriors (130)
Hand Weapon, Repeater Crossbow, Light Armour, Shield

10 Warriors (130)
Hand Weapon, Repeater Crossbow, Light Armour, Shield

6 Dark Riders (151)
Dark Steed, Hand Weapon, Spear, Repeater Crossbow, Light Armour, Musician

15 Witch Elves (250)
Two Hand Weapons, Musician, Standard Bearer, Hag, Warbanner

15 Witch Elves (270)
Two Hand Weapons, Musician, Standard Bearer, Hag, Standard of Slaughter

9 Harpies (117)

1 Cauldron of Blood (205)

15 Black Guard of Naggaroth (275)
Heavy Armour, Musican, Standard Bearer, Master

Empire
Grand Master (225)
Warhorse, Lance, Full Plate Armour, Shield, Helm of the Skaven Slayer, Holy Relic

7 Inner Circle Knights (262)
Warhorse, Lance, Full Plate Armour, Shield, Musician, Standard Bearer, First Knight, Standard of Arcane Warding

Warrior-Priest (145)
Warhorse, Biting Blade, Armour of Meteoric Iron

5 Knights (180)
Warhorse, Lance, Full Plate Armour, Shield, Musician, Standard Bearer, First Knight, Warbanner

Captain (108)
Sword of Power, Full Plate Armour, Enchanted Shield

20 Greatswords (320)
Great Weapon, Full Plate Armour, Musician, Standard Bearer, Count's Champion, Griffon Standard

Detachment: 5 Crossbowmen (40)
Detachment: 10 Halberdiers (60)

Battle Wizard
Level Upgrade, 2 Dispel Scrolls

11 Crossbowmen (93)
Hand Weapon, Crossbow, Marksman

11 Crossbowmen (93)
Hand Weapon, Crossbow, Marksman

2 Great Cannon

1 Hellblaster Volleygun


Terrain
___________________________________
............s................................................
............s................................................
...........s.................................................
..........s....................................hill..........
......lake..........fences..............................
..............................................................
..............................................................
.........c...................................................
.........c...................................................
..........c......................fffff.......................
..........c.......................fff........................
..........c..................................................
____________________________________
(s= stream, c=chasm, both with bridge in the middle)
(f= forest)

Setup
_____________________________________

-kn- c cros c
h hal gre cr cros inc


-rxb- -bg- -rxb- harpies
-dr- -we- cob -we-

______________________________________

Grand Master in Inner Circle Knights (inc)
Captain in Greatswords (gre)
Warrior Priest in Knights (kn)
Noble in Black Guard (bg)
Cauldron of Blood in forest.

Magic
Empire Mage (Heavens): Second Sign of Amul, Forked Lightning
Dark Elf Sorceress (Shadow): Pelt of Midnight, Shades of Death

Turn Summary
Empire Turn 1: Knigths and Greatswords move forward. Priest casts Armour of Rightiousness, Mage cast Second Sign of Amul (2 re-rolls). Cannon fire kills one Black Guard and two Witch Elves (1 saved by COB). Crossbowfire kills three Warriors.

Dark Elf Turn 1: Entire army moves forward. Pelt of Midnight is dispelled by means of a scroll. Armour of Righiousness is dispelled. Shooting kills two crossbowmen from the detachment; they panic.

Empire Turn 2: Crossbow detachment fails to rally and flees off the table. Knights move forward.
Priest casts Armour of Rightiousness, Mage cast Second Sign of Amul (1 re-roll). Cannon fire kills one Black Guard. Hellblaster Gun explodes. Crossbow Fire kills a Harpy and four Dark Riders.

Dark Elf Turn 2: Dark Riders charge cannon, Harpies charge crossbows. Stand-and-shoot fire kills two Harpies, but they don't panic. Black Guard, (left) Witches and (left) Crossbows move forward, (right) Witches turn to face Knights. Armour of Righiousness is dispelled. Shooting kills a Crossbowman and six Halberdiers.
Dark Steeds kill a Cannon Crew, who kill nothing in return. They flee and re overrun by the Dark Riders. Harpies cause two kills, but two are killed. They loose combat and break.

Empire Turn 3: Inner Circle Knights charge Witch Elves, Knights charge Warrior, who flee, but are caught. Priest casts Armour of Rightiousness, Mage cast Second Sign of Amul (3 re-rolls), Forked Lightning is cast on the Black Guard but causes no casualties. Cannon fire kills a Black Guard. Crossbow fire kills two (left) Witch Elves and three Harpies.
Four Witch Elves are killed, no return wounds. The Witch Elves break and are caught.

Dark Elf Turn 3: Witch Elves charge Knights, Black Guard charge Greatswords (and are countercharged by the Halberdiers). Armour of Righiousness is dispelled. Shooting kills nothig.
Close Combat (COB causes two extra wounds). Three Knights are killed, the Priest is wounded. The Knights break and are destroyed.
Black Guard kill five Great Words and two Halberdiers. Two Black Guard are killed. Due to the Griffon Banner, they loose combat, but they hold.

Empire Turn 4: Inner Circle Knights turn towards Black Guard. Cannon fire kills three Witch Elves. Crossbow Fire kills four Witches and two Warriors (right).
Noble challenges Captain. Noble causes no wounds (three ones to hit) and the Captain causes one. Black Guard kill two Halberdiers and a single Great Sword. One Black Guard is killed. Black Guard loose but hold.

Dark Elf Turn 4: Dark Riders charge cannon, Warriors charge Inner Circle Knights in the rear (hopefully diverting them long enough).
Dark Riders kill two crew members. Crew flee and are caught. Warriors kill nothing, Knights kill three. Warriors flee.
Noble causes one wound on the Captain and is killed by the Captain. Two Greatswords are slain.

Empire Turn 5: Inner Circle Knights charge Black Guard. Forked Lignting is cast with Irresistable Force on the Sorceress, but causes only a single wound. Crossbow fire kills two fleeing Warriors. Five Black Guard are killed and a single Great Sword. Black Guard hold.

Dark Elf turn 5: Units move out of harm's way. Black Guard are wiped out.

Empire turn 6: Forked Lightning is dispelled using a scroll.

Dark Elf turn 6: Yawn.

Solid Victory for Empire (Dark Elves: 904, Empire 1735)

Evaluation
Tested Items:
Black Guard of Naggaroth: Performed extremely well. The Eternal hatred really did help, and turned this into a worthwile unit. (At this moment) I think that this rule will have it's impact, and turn the Black Guard into a good rare choice. Opponent agrees.

Cauldron of Blood: Didn't live up to expectations. The increased range had it's usefullness, as I could charge and still have most combats in range. However, Red Fury didn't have to great an effect on CR (an according to my maths, it will never). Witch Elves 'Never loose frenzy' could have been useful once, and is interesting.
My opponent felt that the Cauldron should cost less. I feel that even then it won't be worth a rare slot; it just doesn't have the sufficient impact.

Standard of Slaughter: Got used only once, so no real test results.

Assassin: Didn't profit of his killing blow, so no real test results. Revision rules do not seem overpowered to me or my opponent.

Cheaper Repeater Crossbow: No problems. Opponent agrees with point reduction.


Tue Mar 25, 2003 9:22 am
Profile
Trainee Warrior
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2002 10:40 pm
Posts: 41
Location: Den Haag, The Netherlands
Post 
-Pitched Battle 2000point battle

Vampire Counts Army:
Heroes:
Lahmia Vampire count:
- Lvl 2 wizard, Transfix, Innocence Lost, Sword of unholy power. mounted on a barded nightmare. Death lore: 1, 5
Lvl2 Necromancer:
- Spell familiar Necromantic lore: 1, 4, 6
Lvl2Necromancer:
- Powerfamiliar Necromantic lore: 1, 6

Core:
-28 zombies

-30 zombies with standard

-10 Dire Wolves

-24 skeleton warriors, Full command

Special:
-5 Black Knights, Champion+war banner
-4 Black Knights, champion, Lahmia was in this unit.
-3 Spirit hosts

Rare:
- Banshee
-Chaos Spawn


Dark Elf list

Heroes:
4th level High sorceress:
- Dark steed, Singularity stone, Rubric of Dark Dimensions (soul stealer version) spells: 1, 3, 4, 5
Lvl2 Sorceress:
- Dark steed, rod of doom spells: 2, 4
Dark Elf noble:
- Cold one, Lance, shield, heavy armour, SDC and Rune of Khaine

Core:
- 20 City Guard(1), full command, shield front rank 5

- 20 City Guard(2), full command, shield front rank 5

- 5 Dark Riders

Special:
- 12 Witch Elves+ hag

- 12 Witch Elves+ hag

- 5 Cold ones

Rare:
- Cauldron of blood

Table:
gaming table was 1.50 by 2.00 meter.

Code:
 
-------------------------------------------------
i                    COB
i     CO.K . WE CG        CG WE   .   DR
i               
i             
i             
i                   
i                   
i                       
i             
i             
i             
i             
i             
i                       SH
i                 Z BK . Sk .  Z  Dw
i                                 B.K           
--------------------------------------------------

(dots are characters)


What happened?

Turn1
- VC got the first turn. VC units marches to DE.
- 11 zombies summoned, other spells dispelled.

-CO knights fail stupidity test.
- Sorceresses marches to undeath
- Extremely good magic phase, 8 wounds on spirit hosts due to doombolt
- Shooting out of reach.

Turn2
- VC units marches forward
- No magic comes through

- CO knights fail stupidity test.
- Sorceresses marches further to undeath.
- No shooting
- No magic

Turn 3
- VC marches forward
- 13 zombies are summoned
- 3 DR perish due to magic missile from Lahmia VC, pass panic test.

- CO knights pass stupidity test, get back where they came from, to protect the flank again.
- DR and sorceresses walk beyond enemy battle lines.
wn. They pass their panic test.
- Soul stealer does very well 18 wounds to a zombie unit, doombolt on dire wolves does 4 wounds, 1 black knight perishes due to another doombolt. and another 11 zombies perish due to soul stealer.


Turn3
- As much as possible the VC player marches forward. The spirit hosts are now very close to the cauldron, I left a gap in my defences!! :shock:
- Necromancer are hidden between VC units.
- 10 zombies are summoned.
- Magic missile comes through aimed at witches no casualties

- CG passes Ld-ship test and charges spirit hosts. (I desperately needed to protect that cauldron but by charging the spirithosts the came out on a very vital spot.
- Soulstealer comes through again and do 12+12 wounds to 2 zombie units.
- VC dispells both the bound items.
- CG wins combat by CR and the spirit hosts crumble to dust.

Turn 4
- VC player stays in line and no units can charge.
- No necromantic magic comes through.
- Magic missile from VC lord comes through and kills 3 witch elves (one was saved by Cauldron.)


- COK passes stupidity test.
- COK charges zombies
- DR charge Necromancer
- Witch elves charges zombies
- High Sorceresses (6 wounds :p) charges Necro (passes ld ship test)
- 14 skeletons perish due to Soul stealer.
- another 12 zombies perish due to soul stealer.
- RXB-men fire at dire wolves 3 perish.
- COK do 8 wounds to zombies on the charge, they overrun into the fresh Black knights.
- WE do 9 wounds to the zokmbies 2 thanks to the COB.
- Dark riders do 1 wound to the necromancer thanks to cauldron, necro vanishes due to CR.
- No wounds to other necro, gets one wound due to CR.

Turn 5:
- BK with VC charge CG.
- Dire wolves flank charge same CG.
- Zombies flank charge COK
- Skeletons charge CG
- Vampire's curse :) Soul stealer goes of with IF *ouch*: 3 WE perish (one saved with COB) 4 CG perish, 1 Cauldron guardian perishes, 2 further CG perishes and one dark rider perishes.
- CG guard who got charged by Black knights get massacred, are broken in combat and overrun by Dire wolves.
- COK do 4 wounds (2 thanks to COB) to BK 2 are saved. Black knights do 2 wounds, one is killing blow other is saved. zombies kill one other CO knight. :? COk Automatically break are not overrun by zombies nor Black Knights.
- Skeletons do 1 wound to CG, CG do 5 wounds back (2 thanks to COB) 1 wound is saved. CG wins combat.
- Other necro perishes due to CR.

Turn 6:
- COK fail to rally. Do not flee from the table edge.
- WE charge Black Knights.
- Doombolt on the remaining black knights, 2 perish
- Another doombolt on the banshee causes 4 wounds.
- Soul stealer on zombies, 5 perish.
- WE do 4 wounds to count, 3 are saved!! :x WE break from combat but stay out of reach of the black knights


Solid Victory for Dark Elves:
1565 VS 797


1. How effectively did the revision function, was it up to expectations? How?
- The DE bound items are powerfull now, very powerfull, maybe too powerfull.
-I again rolled VERY bad for my stupidity rolls and so the Ld-ship increased had no effect in this battle. Ld 11 any?? :p
-The cauldron was still not worth the points IMO (the randomizing shooting was usefull though) , I did some more wounds with it in the first close combat but remember I faced zombies (allready easy to hit and wound) and the cauldron didn't make things any real better. The always frenzy rule is also overrated IMHO, remember that break tests need to be taken normally.


2. Will this change make a significant difference, how?
- Yes, the great increase of bound items make DE a magic powerfull army.
3. Would you feel that the Dark Elf revision is now "cheezy" if you were playing AGAINST it? How? Why?
- Uhm, hard to tell but I must admit that some bound items should be increased in points (the soul stealer version, making it 55 points for lord models only) I also think that some of the magic heavy bound items should be changed into arcane items instead of the their enchanted item status now. This way you will eliminate the extreme 'cheese' armies where Dark elf nobles and lords carry these powerfull bound items and where sorceresses use the rest of the boud items. Magic will be too powerfull in DE armies this way.

4. Are there some ways these changes could lead to significant abuse, or completely unrealistic situations? How?
- read the above.

My opponent only gave the comment which I totally agree on, directed in point 3

Btw get that server working! It isn’t that motivating to try the whole evening submitting a battle report :D

_________________
"Don't ask the Nameless One his name: he hasn't got one"


Tue Mar 25, 2003 11:03 pm
Profile
Master of the Red Legion
Master of the Red Legion
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2002 1:06 pm
Posts: 7037
Location: Land of Chill
Post 
2000 pts pitched battle (no one I know wants to play scenarios! :( )

DE vs VC

DE list:

high sorc
L4
Hand of S'Tarra
scroll

sorc
L2
dark steed
well of souls (soul stealer version)

sorc
L2
staff of slavery
dark steed

sorc
L2
seal
scroll

CG x 20
5 RXBs
full com

CG x 20
5 RXBs
full com

DR x 5
RXBs
musician

DR x 5
RXBs
musician

COK x 10
full com

So I wanted to go real magic heavy on this rather magic centred army, with my general sorceress able to hide behind cover and still cast most of those really nasty spells, the other sorceresses just there to provide the power dice and bound items as well as the magic defense to stop the VC army cold. CG units were good defensive units that could shoot and still hold their ground against most undead assaults and would have sufficient US in these numbers to not have to flee if failing a fear test. As my previous experiments with small COK units used much like DR had really gone rather awry recently, I tried a larger unit to get the rank bonus and have the command bonus, something to be able to hit those skellies in the front and be able to hold them there until the DR could take the flank (or at the same time), even if there was a not too strong character in the mix. With the infinite range magic, I didn't think RBTs would be as useful of needed.

VC list:

Vampire Count
L2
GW
carstein ring


Necromancer
L2
scroll

Necromancer
L2
Book of Arkhan

Skellies x 25
full com

skellies x 25
full com

dire woves x 7

grave guard x 23
full com halberds

black knights
full com
banner of the barrows
barding

black coach

(I must admit I liked the Carstein theme around this army :D ).

The Count went with the grave guard, making them a rather scary unit indeed. :shock:

Terrain:

--forest-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-forest-------forest----------------------------------forest------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------hill--------------------------------------------hill-----------------------------------

Deployment:

----------Wolves-----------skellies--GG--BK-Coach-------------skellies--------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---DR----DR-------------CG-------COK----------CG------------------------------------

The fast cav faced each other and the CG faced the skellies while the COK unit threatened the BK,coach and GG units, with the CG nearby to provide support. The other skelly unit was essentially ignored as it was not going to be able to do much marching if I could make a wedge between the GG with general and the rest of the army (thinking COK will do that). I felt troubled though that I had nothing to deal with the coach.

The Battle:

DE get first turn! :shock: (for those of you who do not kow, its the first time in a month or more that I've gotte the first turn)

DE1:

DR move up with sorcs branching out from the units in case the wolves decide to get greedy.

IF black horror on the BK, killing 5 (nice rolling if I do say so myself)
scrolls dominion of the coach (wanted to keep his line intact and have it suppor tthe now rather vulnerable knights)

VC1:

Everything moves up

IF raising of 7 skellies to the right skellies unit

DE2:

DR charge woves
COK go stupid

soul steal on the left skellies unit downs 11
IF black horror on the BK, preventing them from charging the stupid COK
miscast by the high sorc and the hand crumbles
bound item soul steal takes another 7 skellies from the same unit as before

1 GG goes down to CG fire

DR obliterate the wolves and overrun

VC2:

skellies on the left charge the other DR unit which got too close, but they flee and the charge fails
the coach comes around the knights, readying to charge the CG with knightly support, or worse, the COK if they remain stupid

the gaze of Nagash is scrolled

DE3:

COK again! (11 rolled)
DR rally

well of souls on GG kills 3
staff of slavery used GG
BH on the knights reduces them to the standard bearer (from the L2 with the staff of slavery)
1 wound on the coach from a doombolt

DR shoot a skelly
CG shoot another GG

VC3:

the knight and the coach charge the CG unit, and the knight is out, and fails
eft skellies reform to face DR while the right skelies continue their sluggish move forwards

raises 6 more skellies on the left

coach only does 2 wounds, loses by 3 and is now down to 4 wounds

DE4:

COK charge the GG with the DR in the rear (feeling good now :D )
Other DR fail their fear test and don't charge the skellies

a doombolt kills the last BK
4 more dead skelies to doombolt and chillwind (right)
staff of slavery stops the skellies
well runs out

Coach goes down to combat res

1 COK goes down t the vampire, while GG go down by 2 and lose by 5

VC4:

skellies charge the DR who fail their fear test

4 COK down to the vampire :shock: , 1 DR down to the guards, one GG killed, tied combat
the DR manage to kill the left necro, but end up losing and being run down

DE5:

miscast end the magic phase
2 skellies down to the CG fire
COK destroyed, DR auto-broken and are run down, but lead the GG way back

VC5:

moves back up

DE6:

IF black horror downs 12 skellies on the right and 3 more go down to a doombolt

VC6:

can't do anything so he just moves up again

End of battle

DE: 1301 VC: 699 (SV)

I felt the revision units functioned as well as they should have, while the items might have worked a bit too well in some cases, as it really seemed to dominate the game. This kind of ultra magic heavy army is certainly what I would consider formidable to most balanced armies and vertainly destructive to those that are slower and without war machines. However, like any specialized army, it has some serious weaknesses in that to put the on foot characters in units is to seriously change the CG units, and the DR units are rather vulnerable and costly when the character inside is worth more than the unit. Also, the lack of units was certainly felt on my end as I was hard pressed to deal with the combined attacks of the 3 hard hitting units (GG, BK, coach), even with the other two skellies units far away. I'm rather sure a khornate army would have a great time picking me apart, as would almost any shooty army with decent magic defense.

I would have felt rather discouraged to have to face this army without first knowing it could indeed come up. There were over 45% in characters and a wealth of power dice supported by powerful bound items, and the hand on top of that makes it rather vexing for a first time fight against the GP list.

My opponent was certainly not very happy with the bound items and the hand. Losing half of his BKs in the first turn was cetainly upsetting and being constantly battered by magic was not pleasant eithe, esp when combined with him getting off so few spells. The massive soul stealing of his skelly unit was also unpleasant, since most of it was done by a sorc that couldn't see it and was well over 5 times out of range. When the hand crumbled on the second turn, it really wasn't so bad since he had moved into regular range anyways of the spells and was still getting hit by the bound items along with the other dice.

Also, this opponent disagrees with the CG unit as a whole, disagreeing with how they violate the one weapon per unit rule and can get all those cool benefits and essentially make spearmen useless since they are so much better.

So, he suggested that the Hand not violate LOS rules and have the range doubled instead of made infinite as that would make casting soul stealer much softer and still getting the range out of the doombolts and black horrors, though not making them rather ridiculous in power. I found the hand rather balanced in that it only did last two turns and its true power was in getting that IF on the knights. Also, he did not like the soul stealing version of the well, but thought the staff was rather cool (esp since I used the sorc model that mounts on a cold one for it and she has a rather nice staff), and admitted that it reinforced the DE theme of deciding where to strike. I agree with that fully! :D

I will reiterate that the list I used was designed to be specialized and to see exactly what kind of magical damage I could do. I found that if his GG unit had gotten closer, I was toast as I had nothing that could deal with it or the BK unit if it had not gotten smashed so early with lucky magic.

_________________
_
Image
The storm is coming...
Are you ready?


Sat Mar 29, 2003 2:44 am
Profile WWW
Noble
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2002 9:04 am
Posts: 413
Location: Hengelo, The Netherlands
Post 
Dark Elves vs. Skaven (2000 pts Pitched Battle)
A bit of a strange battle... at the end of the second turn, I thought it was going to be a massacre, due to heavy Skaven magic and bad Dark Elf magic and shooting... Later the dice turned out to be a bit more favourable (magic stayed bad, though), resulting in a draw.


Dark Elves
Noble (General) (135)
Handweapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Rubric of Dark Dimensions (Soul Stealer version)

High Sorceress (355)
Handweapon, Level Upgrade, Singularity Stone, 2 Dispel Scrolls

Sorceress (180)
Handweapon, Level Upgrade, Spellcall Familiar, Power Stone

15 City Guard (190)
Hand Weapon, Spear (10), Repeater Crossbow (5), Light Armour, Shield, Musician, Standard Bearer, Lordling

10 Warriors (190)
Hand Weapon, Repeater Crossbow, Light Armour, Shield

6 Dark Riders (151)
Dark Steed, Spear, Repeater Crossbow, Light Armour, Musician

15 Executioners (265)
Hand Weapon, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Musician, Standard Bearer, Draich Master, Warbanner, Fearcausing

8 Cold One Knights (277)
Cold One, Hand Weapon, Lance, Heavy Armour, Shield, Musician, Standard Bearer, Dread Knight

9 Harpies (117)

2 Reaper Bolt Throwers (200)

Skaven
Grey Seer (435)
Hand Weapon, Eye of the Horned Rat, Dispel Scroll, Warpstorm Scroll, Screaming Bell

Warlock Engineer (145)
Supercharged Warp Power Accumulator, Upgraded Warp-Energy Condenser, Warp Blades, Warplock Pistol, Dispel Scroll, Storm Daemon

Assassin (130)
Two Hand Weapons, Throwing Stars, Bands of Power

31 Clanrats (235)
Hand Weapon, Light Armour, Shield, Musician, Standard Bearer, Paw Leader, Ratling Gun Weapon team

30 Clanrats (255)
Hand Weapon, Light Armour, Shield, Musician, Standard Bearer, Paw Leader, Warpfire Thrower Weapon team

5 Rat Swarms (180)

2 Warp Lightning Cannons (200)

5 Warplock Jezzail Teams (100)

5 Warplock Jezzail Teams (100)

5 Poison Wind Globadiers (60)

5 Poison Wind Globadiers (60)

Terrain
__________________________________________________
__________________________________________________
__________________________________________________
__________________________________________________
ssssssssssssss___________________________boul________
_______bb_______________________________________rrr
________________________________________________rrr
__________fffff_____________________fence___________
__________fffff__________________________bbb_______
_________________________________________________
_________________________________________________

s = stream (bridge down the middle)
b = building
r= rocky peak
boul=boulders
f=forest

Setup
_cok_ s1 s2
harpies warrior rbt cityg execs rbt __dr__



rats jezzails wlc clan1 pwg clan2 jezzails wlc
pwg

s1: High Sorceress
s2: Sorceress
Noble in Executioners
Assassin in clanrats 1
Grey Seer in clanrats 2
Engineer between Clanrat units.

Spells
Grey Seer
2 Warp Lightning
3 Vermin Tide
4 Pestilence Breath
5 Death Frenzy

DE High Sorceress (Dark)
1 (Chillwind)(5+)
2 (Doombolt)(6+)
4 (Soul Stealer)(9+)
6 (Black Horror)(12+)

DE Sorceress (Shadow)
5 Unseen Lurker (10+) (Selected with Spellcall Familiar)
6 Pit of Shades (11+)

Turn Summary
Dark Elf Turn 1: Cold One Knights pass stupidity test. Army moves forward (Dark Riders and Harpies to the flanks. Black Horror is dispelled using a scroll. Pit of Shades kills one Poison Wind Globadier. Dark Rider’s shooting inflicts one wound on a Warp Lightning Cannon. Reaper Bolt Thrower kills two Jezzails from the left group (who panic and flee the table), and one from the right group. Two wounds are inflicted upon the Rat Swarms.

Skaven Turn 1: Rat Swarms charge Knights, but fail. Entire army moves forward, including one Warp Lightning Cannon (who moves out of sight of the Dark Riders).Dark Elves fail to dispel Warp Lightning (throwing triple one) and seven Executioners are killed. Vermintide and a second Warp Lightning are dispelled using scrolls. Death Frenzy is cast with Irresistable Force.
Striking the Bell causes it to cause terror. Warp Lightning Cannon misfires and explodes. Ratling Gun kills another three executioners. Jezzails kill a Cold One Knight.

Dark Elf Turn 2: Cold One Knights fail stupidity test. Harpies charge Poison Wind Globadiers. Dark Riders move to the rear of Clanrats with bell and Warp Lightning Cannon. General leaves executioners. And moves along side City Guard (who have marched forward). Executioners move slowly forward. Black Horror causes no casualties. Unseen Lurker is dispelled using a scroll. Using a Power Stone, the Sorceress tries to cast Pit of Shades and miscasts. Warriors kill one Rat Swarm, all other shooting fails to hit.
Harpies kill one (!) Poison Wind Globadier who kill four (!) in return. Harpies break and are caught.

Skaven Turn 2: Frenzied Clanrats charge City Guard and Assassin pops out. Bell charges Executioners, who flee 3” and are just out of reach. Rat Swarms charge Cold One Knights, who flee 7” and are destroyed. Ratling Gun and Poison Wind Globadiers move towards Dark Riders.
Warp Lightning spell kills three Dark Riders. Death Frenzy is caused in the already frenzied Clan Rats. Second Warp Lightning inflicts one wound on the Seer and destoryes the remaining Executioners. Assassin’s bands of Power is dispelled. Storm Demon destroyes remaining Dark Riders (but is exhausted).
Warp Lightning Cannon kills one crew member. Screaming Bell damages Reaper Bolt Throwers.
In close combat, two city guard are killed as well as two Clan Rats. One wounds is inflicted on the Assassin. City Guard looses by one.
Death frenzy kills three Clanrats.

Dark Elf Turn 3: General charges frenzied rats. High Sorceress moves into building, Warriors turn to face Swarms and Poison Wind Globadiers. Black Horror fails, Chillwind is cast with irristable force, but causes no wounds, Soulstealer is dispelled, Rubric of Dark dimensions comes through killing 13 Clan Rats and the Warpfire Thrower.
Reaper Bolt Throwers destroy two Jezzails who panic.
In close combat, only the Assassin is killed. Two city Guard are killed. The City Guard holds, but the General flees.

Skaven Turn 3: Jezzails fail to rally and flee the table. Rat Swarm charges Warriors. Warp Lightning kills four City Guard and five Clan Rats. Vermin Tide is dispelled. Second Warp Lightning miscasts and causes an additional wound on the Grey Seer, and kills one Clanrat. Ratling Gun fires into the combat, killing one City Guard and five Clanrats. Poison Wind Globadiers fire into the same combat, killing on additional Clanrat. Other Poison Wind Globadiers fire into other combat, inflicting one wound on the swarms and killing one Warrior. Screamin Bell causes both Bolt Thrower crews to panic.
In close combat, one Clanrat is killed and one City Guard. Clanrats break, City Guard restrain from pursuit. One Warrior is killed, and two wounds are inflicted on the swarms.

Dark Elf Turn 4: General rallies; Bolt Thrower crews fail to rally and flee the table. City Guard charges Poison Wind Globadiers, who flee. Unseen Lurker causes City Guard to charge Ratling Gun.
City Guard overrun, causing Poison Wind Globadiers to flee further.Three wounds are inflicted on the Rat Swarms, and one Warrior is killed.

Skaven Turn 4: Poison Wind Globadiers rally. Grey Seer still unable to cast due to miscast. Warp Lightning is cast with irrisistable force on the High Sorceress, causing two wounds on the High Sorceress.
Warp Lightning Cannon kills two City Guard, Poison Wind Globadiers kill one Warrior and cause one wound on the Rat Swarms. Bell attempts to cause panic, but doesn’t succeed.
The Warriors inflict three wounds on the swarm, but are not wounded in return.

Dark Elf Turn 5: City Guard charges Warp Lightning Cannon, who flees out of range. Singularity stone prevents a miscast on Doombolt. Soul Stealer is miscast (two ones, two sixes :-()
Two wounds are inflicted on the Swarm.

Skaven Turn 5: Warp Lightning Cannon rallies. Engineer charges High Sorceress who flees out of range. Clanrats move around. Grey Seer still unable to cast. Warp Lightning is dispelled. Poison Wind Globadiers kill one City Guard, one Warrior and the remaining Rat Swarm.

Dark Elf Turn 6: City Guard charges Warp Lightning Cannon who flees out of range. Chillwind is cast with irrisistable force on the Engineer, killing him. Warriors kill one Poison Wind Globadier.
Skaven Turn 6: Clan Rats charge Wariors. Warp Lightning Cannon fails to rally and flees the table. Grey Seer still unable to cast due to miscast. Poison Wind Globadiers kill two City Guard.
In close combat, one Warrior is slain. Warriors break (needed a two, throw a three). They flee 3” and are caught.

Result: Draw DE 1338, Skaven 1410.

Evaluation
The revision functioned up to expectations. The following items were tested:
Cheaper Repeater Crossbows: Acceptable to opponent, not really an issue.
Fear Causing Executioners: Didn't really see action. In the opinion of both me and my opponent a reasonable addition (not too good on an expensive unit), but should remain an option (with good fluff reason).
Don't know if this revision seriously helps the unit and/or the army, though.
Increased Leadership for Cold One Knights: Ony two stupidty test were made, and one was failed. Opponent thought it was fair, and since there was still a failed test, it wasn't considered cheesy or overpowered. City Guard: Shooting wasn't used much, so it was mainly an armour save increase. The reform rules to have a character join the unit were really anoying when my General tried to leave the doomed Executioners (rules say 'reform'... can a rank-removing action be used as well?). Opponent considered the unit fine; the strict formation rules seemed enough of a drawback to counter the benefits.
In my opinion the formation rules are a serious drawback, and may cause me to ignore the City Guard. I doubt introducing this unit will make a great difference.
Singularity Stone: Didn't help me at all, but was considered a good item by me and my opponent.
Spellcall Familiar: Good item, very useful for Shadow Sorceresses. Opponent thought it might need to be a bit more expensive, but agreed that that would make the item a bit unusual since it couldn't combine with scolls and such.
Rubric of Dark Dimensions: Got used seriously only once, but had a major impact. Considered by me and my opponent to be a bit too strong. It should either have a lower power level, or a 'drain' feature (and be cheaper), or plainly be more expensive (55 points).
We discussed the other option as well. This one seemed to be a lot weaker (and should be cheaper then 50 points). The Initative test was seen by both me and my opponent as a bit useless... (I would suggest using the Death spell steal soul for this option, as it is almost identical to it's current function)

The revision functioned to make DE magic more serious, but didn't really hep to make the army as a whole work better together (though the list wasn't too much tailored to that as well).
The revision didn't seem to cheesy, allthough it could make a scary magic force (though I think all armies with max sorcerers are cheesy).


Sun Mar 30, 2003 2:22 am
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Hunter Of The Night
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Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 4:17 pm
Posts: 2152
Location: England
Post 
Ok a late report but better late than never!

Dark Elves Vs High Elves 3000 Points. 7 Turns.

No specific scenario but I asked my opponent to construct and play an offensive list while I would construct and play a defensive list. This was for two main reasons: firstly because these were the opposites of our playing styles and I wanted to see how the revision was played with me using a different style, and secondly to use some revised choices that would not have suited an offensive list.


Dark Elves

(red) = revised stuff.

Highborn
Heavy Armour
Shield
Cold One
Blade Of Ruin
Black Amulet

High Sorceress (Chillwind, Doombolt, Word Of Pain, Soulstealer.)
Level 4
Dispel Scroll
Hand Of S'Tarra

Sorceress A (Chillwind, Soulstealer.)
Level 2
Dark Steed
Dispel Scroll

Sorceress B (Creeping Death, Pit Of Shades.)
Level 2
Dispel Scroll
Seal Of Ghrond

Assassin
Chill Blade



15 Cityguard
5 RXBows
Shields

15 Cityguard
5 RXBows
Shields


20 corsairs
Full Command
War Banner

5 Dark Riders
RXbows
Musician

5 Dark Riders
RXbows
Musician


15 Black Guard
Musician
Standard
Dread Banner

Cauldron Of Blood


2 Reapers


9 Cold One Knights
Musician
Standard



Army Total = 3000

(Note: When the Black guard fought I thought there was a champion in the unit for about 4 turns when there wasn't :oops: so the Black Guard combat is slightly biased!)


High Elves

Prince
Dragon Armour
Shield
Barded Elven Steed
Pure Of Heart
Blade Of Sea Gold
Helm Of Fortune
Talisman Of Saphery

Archmage (Storm Of Cronos, Forked Lightning, Uranon's Thunderbolt, Comet Of C)
Level 4
Book Of Hoeth

Commander
Dragon Armour
Shield
Swordmaster Honour

Commander
Dragon Armour
Shield
Reaver Bow
Biting blade

Mage A (Drain Magic, Fury Of Khaine, Flames Of The Phoenix, Vaul's Unmaking)
Level 2
Seer
Silver Wand

Mage B (Father Of Thorn, Master Of Wood, Master Of Stone)
Level 2
Barded Elven Steed
Seer
Silver Wand
Biting Blade

(I know these magic items where repeated when they shouldn't be but I only realised after the game. It can make up for my free Black Guard Champion!)

15 Spearmen
Full Command

15 Spearmen
Full Command

7 Silver Helms
Heavy Armour
Shields
Full Command
Lion Standard

5 Silver Helms
Heavy armour
Shields
Full Command


19 Swordmasters
Full Command
Banner Of Sorcery
Amulet Of The Purifying Flame

5 Shadow Warriors
Shadow Walker

5 Shadow Warriors
Shadow Walker


15 White Lions
Full Command
Standard Of Balance
Amulet Of Purifying Flame

1 Great Eagle

2 RBTs


Army Total = 2997



Set Up


Left Side
---------------------------------------house-------------------------------
--------building----------------------house--------------------rocky-----
--------buil--------------------------hillhillhill-------------------hill-------
--------------------------------------hilltrees------------------------------
--------------------rock----------------hill---------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------t-----------------------hill-------
-------------------------rock-------------r-----------------------hill-------
-------------------------------------------e-----------------------hill-------
-------------------------------------------e---------well----------hill-------
--------------hillhill-----------------------s---------------------------------
------------hillhill----------------------------buil---------------------------
-----------hillhill-----------------------rock---di---------------------------
----------------trees-----------------rock----ng---------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Right Side


Dark Elves------------------------------------------------------High Elves


--------Sorc A---------------------------------------------------------------
----------High Sorc----------------------------------------------------------
---------------------RBT-----------------SWs-----------------------hero---
------------C-----------------------------------------------------------------
------------O----D--------------------------------------------SHs-Spears--
------------K--- R----CG-----------------------------------Mage B-Mage A
------------s----s------------------------------------------------------------
----Caul--------------Cor-----------------------------------RBT---Eagle--
----dron-------BG---sairs-----------------------------------Lions---------
----------------------------------------------------------------------Archm-
------------------------CG(A)------------------------------------------------
------------D-----------RBT-----------------SWs------------Swords-------
-------------R--------------------------------------------------SHs-Spears-
--------------s-------Sorc B-----------------------------------RBT----------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(A) = Assassin in unit.


High Elves get first turn, Hero with Reaver Bow is General.

When "left unit/right unit" is mentioned then this indicates that there are two of the unit type mentioned. Left Silver Helms for example are the Silver Helm unit nearest the left side of the table at deployment. The left and right sides can be found on the scenery set-up map.


HE Turn 1

Left Silver Helms move forward behind small house.
Mage B moves foward behind hill with trees on.
Swordmasters and White Lions march forward.
Right Silver Helms move onto and down right flank.
Right Spears go behind right Silver Helms.
Left Spears move up next to rocky hill.
Eagle goes behind Mage B.
Mage on foot and Archmage move forward.
Right RBT moves onto right flank to get a better view.

Comet is cast but doesn't arrive
Uranon's T kills Sorc A, therefore cancelling the comet!

RBT kills 1 left Dark Rider.
Left SWs kill 1 RBT crew.
Right SWs kill 2 right Cityguard.


DE Turn 1

COKs pass stupidity.
Right Dark Riders move onto right flank.
Left Dark Riders move onto left flank.
Right Cityguard wheel slightly to the right.
Left Cityguard move forward and wheel slightly to the left.
COKs move slightly forward.

Magic dispelled or ineffective.

RBT kills 2 right SWs.
Left DRs take 2 wounds off Eagle. Doesn't panic.


HE Turn 2

White Lions go into central line of trees.
Swordmasters do the same.
Archmage moves into the well.
Both other mages move behind central woods.
Right Spears and SilverHelms move behind building on right flank.
Left Spears and Silver Helms move down left flank (SHs in front.)
Eagle moves behind Swordmasters.

Uranon's Thunderbolt takes 1 wound of High Sorc.
Miscast ends magic phase.

Hero with Reaver Bow kills 1 left Dark rider.
Left SWs kill 2 Dark riders.
Right SWs kill 1 right Cityguard.
Left Dark Rider panics.


Dark Elf Turn 2

COKs pass stupidity.
Left Dark Rider rallies.
Left Cityguard wheel and move off to the left.
Corsairs move forward and slightly right.
COKs move between these two.
Black Guard move slightly forward.

Doombolt kills Archmage thanks to the Hand Of S'Tarra.
Soulstealer (again with the hand) kills 2 right Spears and boosts High Sorc up to 4 wounds.

RBT kills 2 left Silver Helms.
Other RBT kills 1 Swordmaster and wounds hero in the unit.


HE Turn 3

Eagle fails charge on right Cityguard. They stand and shoot and kill it.
White Lions and Swordmasters move forward out of woods and opposite Corsairs.
Left Silver Helms and Spears move down letf flank and Silver Helms turn in to face left Cityguard.

Magic ineffective or dispelled.

RBT kills 1 Right Dark Rider
Right SWs kill 2 Right Cityguard.


DE Turn 3

Corsairs Charge the White Lions (hold reaction.)
COKs pass stupidity and wheel slightly to the right.
Right Cityguard march down off their hill and opposite the Swordmasters.
Left Dark Rider marches in front of left Silver Helms.
Black Guard move forward and slightly right.
Left Cityguard move towards left Silver Helms.

Magic Ineffective or dispelled.

Right Dark Riders kill 1 Right RBT crewman.
Left Cityguard kill 1 left SW.
RBT kills 3 Swordmasters.

Corsairs get no hatred thanks to standard of balance.
All hits wound thanks to Cauldron.
4 White Lions killed.
1 Corsair killed in return.
Lions break and flee 10", Corsairs pursue 9" into Mage B.
Mage B killedby Corsairs who overrun into rear of fleeing White Lions who automatically flee again and are run down.


High Elf Turn 4

Swordmasters charge right Cityguard who stand and shoot and kill 1 Swordmaster. Assassin reveals himself opposite wounded Swordmaster Hero.
Prince leaves left Silver Helms and they both go down the left flank.
Right Spears turn around to face Corsairs.
Right Silver Helms cannot move due to Dark Riders and do not want ot charge as they know I will flee and and counter charge.
Right SWs move around behind right Dark Riders.

Fury Of Khaine kills 3 Corsairs.

RBT kills 3 more Corsairs.
Second RBT wipes out right Dark Riders.
Left SWs kill 1 left Cityguard.
Corsairs pass panic test.

Assassin strikes first against the Swordmaster hero and scores 3 wounds thanks to cauldron. (dead Hero.)
Swordmasters kill 2 Cityguard.
Right Cityguard do no wounds back.
Right Cityguard lose and are overrun.


DE Turn 4

Black Guard charge Swordmasters in the front (pass fear test.)
COKs pass stupidity.
Left Cityguard and COKs turn to face left Silver Helms and Prince.
Corsairs turn to face right Spears.

Chillwind (from the Hand) kills 1 right SW.

Forgot Shooting!!!!!!

Black Guard do no wunds on Swordmasters! But kill 2 Swordmasters thanks to the Cauldron. Swordmasters kill 3 Black Guard. Black Guard don't break.


HE Turn 5

Left Spears charge left Dark Rider who flees, they pursue but don't catch. He now cannot rally.
Prince marches and turns behind High Sorc in building on the left.
Left Silver Helms turn to face COKs.

Magic ineffective or dispelled.

RBT kills 2 Corsairs.
Other RBT kills 1 Corsair.
Hero with Reaver Bow takes 1 wound of Highborn and kills 1 COK.
Corsairs don't panic.

Black Guard kill 3 Swordmasters thanks to eternal hatred (taking over nicely as the cauldron no longer has its affect.)
Swordmasters kill 3 Black Guard. Drawn combat.


DE Turn 5

Left Cityguard charge left Spears (hold reaction.)
COKs pass stupidity.

Magic ineffective or dispelled.

RBT kills 1 right Silver Helm.

Black Guard Kill 4 Swordmasters, Swordmasters kill some Black Guard (can't remember how many but it was between 1 and 3.)
Swordmasters don't break.
Left Cityguard kill 1 left Spearman.
Left Spearmen kill 3 Cityguard.
Cityguard don't break.


HE Turn 6

Prince charges High Sorc from behind (flee reaction.) Prince pursues into left RBT.
Right Silver Helms move in front of Sorc B.
Right Spears move down right flank.

Fury Of Khaine kills 1 COK and takes another wound off Highborn.

Corsairs reduced to 2 by RBTs.
Highborn and 1 COK die to Hero with Reaver Bow and SWs.
Corsairs still don't panic.

Combat between Swordmasters and Black Guard is a draw. (Again can't remember how many were killed :oops: )
Prince kills left RBT crew and overruns into COK flank. No wounds. Drawn combat.


DE Turn 6

COK pass stupidity.
The 2 Corsairs move into the central woods.
High Sorc doesn't rally.

Pit Of Shades kills 1 left Silver Helm.

Black Guard kill 1 Swordmaster.
Swordmasters kill 2 Black Guard.
Drawn combat.
Prince and COK do nothing to each other. Drawn combat.


HE Turn 7 (Last Turn)

Left Spears charge COKs.
Right Silver Helms charge Sorc B (hold reaction.)
Right Spears move down right flank.
Mage A moves out of forest.

SWs wound High Sorc.
RBTs kills last RBT crew.

Right Silver Helms kill mage on foot.
Spears kill 1 COK, who do not do enough damage back to win combat. they break and flee 10". Prince pursues 6".
Black Guard and Swordmasters are reduced to a champion each.


DE Turn 7

High Sorc rallies.
COKs rally on a 9.

Doombolt wounds Prince.
Soulstealer kills 2 left SWs. (Both thanks to the Hand.)

Black Guard Champion mercilessly slays the Swordmaster Champion.


Final result.

Dark Elves 1685

High Elves 2623

High Elves win by 938 points. Solid Victoy.


Fri Apr 04, 2003 9:33 pm
Profile
Hunter Of The Night
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Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 4:17 pm
Posts: 2152
Location: England
Post 
I was annoyed with myself in this battle which looked as if it was going well until I made three stupid tactical errors.

(i) I let myselfget flanked by the Prince and Silver Helms.
(ii)I hesitated as to which unit my Cold One Knights should charge and so they got charged and they and the General were unable to do any damage. They were just sitting ducks :evil:.
(iii)I kept my Corsiars out in the open. After running down the White Lions and Mage on Horse I ignored the unit as it was pulvarised by the RBTs. Instead I could have moved back, providing support from another angle.

Anyway enough of my whining.


The revision functioned fairly well with no potential exploitation of rules or flaws in rules. As with the previous battle the Assassin never managed a killing blow, the Cityguard tended to charge rather than be charged and the Cold One Knights never failed a stupidity test.

The Cauldron was good but as most of the combats lasted more than one round it was useless for the last few turns of the battle.

Eternal hatred for the Black Guard was a real help as it helped them match the Swordmasters.

The Cold One Knights had nothing to help their stupidity, however the General was with them until the last few turns and Ld 9 only saved them once in a rally test.

I never cast Word Of Pain, Something I probably should have done but by the end I was trying to kill the enemy rather than reduce their WS/BS.

The Hand Of S'Tarra was the big focal point and as you can see did not disintigrate. I discussed it with my opponent and we he thinks that we should have it, however it should be 80 points so as to take out the possible combination with a Dispel Scroll or the Seal Of Ghrond, thus making it one of those items that provides the bearer with great strength in one field but partially at the cost of negating another field. In this case it would be magical defence. Also bearing in mind that even if it disintigrates it doens't harm the bearer. Perhaps an alternative is to keep it at its current value but if it disintigrates the bearer sufferes one auto wound with no save aloud due to the outburst of magical energy?

Again the Assassin was powerful with his Chill Blade, however the character he fought was already down to 1 wound and had few magical items that would have helped him.

The Cityguard are an easy solution to the Spearmen problem, however Corsiars just fit my personal playing style and I find them more aggressive.

The Black Amulet's ward save against shooting and magic never saved me. Not quite sure if we should have this or not. It's pretty powerful as it is. I think if we wanted the save against shooting it should be increased by about 10 points.

I think that's everything. Any questions just ask.


P.S. I have very important exams coming up very soon and so won't be able to do much playtesting at all. I shall probable be able to do 2 more battle reports in the coming weeks but after that I have exams unitl the end of June and so won't be able to post any reports. I have no outstanding reports to post. I AM still heavily into this revision and hope to hear good responses from Gav.


Fri Apr 04, 2003 11:02 pm
Profile
Master of the Red Legion
Master of the Red Legion
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Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2002 1:06 pm
Posts: 7037
Location: Land of Chill
Post 
2500 pts pitched battle

DE vs Chaos

DE list:

High sorceress
Hand of S’Tarra
Scroll

Sorceress
Seal
Scroll
L2

Sorceress
L2

RXBmen x 12
shields

RXBmen x 12
shields

RXBmen x 12
shields

witches x 18
full com
KB for hag

witches x 18
full com
KB for hag

COK x 5
Full command

COK x 5
Full command

2 x RBT

Cauldron of Blood

This army was chosen the way it was because I want to see how the cauldron would work. As such, I took full advantage of the lower cost of the RXB and brought a whole pile of warriors to string out in front and fire en masse. The witches were there to support theme and to see how powerful the cauldron might have become. Also, with the war machine rules, I placed the cauldron in a rather offensive position as I wasn’t as worried about things like magic missiles that could take it out. The COK were adapted from my previous bare bones idea but I still hung on to the idea that maybe they could somehow replace my DR to some degree with their fear, better AS, and now banner. The characters were chosen for the sole purpose of supporting the Hand, but not to get overly pricey. There was no way I was going to challenge a chaos lord to battle, so I might as well frt his army instead.

Chaos list:

Chaos Lord
Undivided
Helm of many eyes
Steed
GW
Gaze of the gods
Armour of damnation

Aspiring Champ
Tzeentch
GW
Rides a chariot

Aspiring Champ
Tzeentch
GW
Rides a chariot

Exhalted champ
Khorne
Axe of khorne
Collar of khorne
Steed

Chariot with Tzeentch mark

Chariot with Tzeentch mark

Knights x 5
Chosen
Full com

Knights x 5
Khorne
Full com

Marauder horsemen x 6
Chief
Axes
Spears
Musician

Warriors x 15
Tzeentch
Full com
Halberds
Shields

Warriors x 15
Chosen
Khorne
Shields
halberds

When I asked him about his army comp, he said he wanted something fast, as well as something with some serious resistance to magic (after I told him that there were a few cool magic related items I wanted to try). The speed was to get around any employment of DR I might have used and also to quickly close the gap and buy the time needed to get those two nasty warrior units up to the lines. It should also be noted that that is one killer lord of chaos. :shock:

Terrain:

-----------hill----------------------------------------------
--------------------------forest----------------------------
--forest----------------------------------forest-----------
---------------------------------------------forest---------
-----------------------------high hill----------------------

Deployment:

--horsemen---CW---ch.---knights-ch.-CK---W
--------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
-COK------RXB---WE----WE---------COK----
----------------CoB----RXB-RBTs-RXB---------

So, I deployed on the hill most of my missiles, and the sorcs were all located near friendly unit and away from targeting. The other RXB unit was strung out to full length to be used as a missile screen. The witches were there to charge anything that came into range and diliver as much damage as possible after the enemy had been whittled down by missiles fire. Essentially, sit back and wait and then pounce.

The Battle:

DE get the first turn.

DE1:

right COK go stupid
RXBs and witches go a bit forward to threaten the enemy lines and give false tactical info (sort of)

IF soul stealer on the horsemen from the hand and kills 4, but they pass their panic check

RXB fire kills a knight
One chosen knight falls to the RBTs

Chaos 1:

moves up cautiously, keeping the line and spreading out some more

DE2:

left COK pass stupidity with 9 and then move around for a charge on the chosen warriors
COK on right move to get charges on both chosen knights in the middle and the warriors on the flank
Witches move back, out of range of the knights

Dominion on the warriors, no movement

Marauder horsemen destroyed by shooting
2 chosen knights down to RBT fire

Chaos 2:

moves up as much as possible

3 COK go down to red fire :shock:

DE3:

both units of witches charge a unit of knights
COK or right charges the chariot which holds (behind risked going into a forest)

IF soul stealer on the warriors kills 3
IF black horror of the chosen warriors kills 6

4 chosen warriors go down to rxb fire
1 wound to the left chariot from the RBTs

both combats within 18” on the cauldron (new rules make no difference there)

Left: hag challenges exhalted champion !lol! and does one wound
4 witches go down, including 2 wounds to the hag, but pass the break test

Right: hag challenges and the unit champ accepts
KB kills the champ
4 witches go down, but win combat, the lord stays (big surprise)

champ on the chariot gets killed by the COK, one knight dies in return, but breaks the chariot and sends it into the forest after a restrained pursuit where it is destroyed

Chaos 3:

chosen warriors charge the left witches flank
rest of the force free to move moves up

the left witches break after combat and are run down

right witches lose two models, but win combat again, but he lord stays

DE4:

COK charge the chosen knights (with lord) in the flank
COK (down to 2) charge the chosen warriors in the flank

1 knight goes down to a doombolt
2 more knights die to RXB fire
another knight to the RBTs

3 witches die in the combat, but so does one chosen knight and the lord autobreaks and is run down

COK on left kill a warrior or two and manage to win the combat :shock: but the warriors stay

Chaos 4:

the exhalted champ (all alone now) charges the cauldron
chariot charges the RXB long line which wounds the chariot with stand and shoot

RXBs lose to the chariot and are run down
One COK dies, but the other stays put in combat with the chosen warriors
The exhalted champ kills the cauldron hag, but the other witches stay

DE5:

RXBs charge the exhalted champion
Other COK and withces move around towards the enemy

Doombolt wounds the chariot
IF black horror of the warriors kills 7 who pass the panic check
First RBT destroys the chariot (finally) and the champ takes a wound
Second RBT skewers the champion

2 warriors go down to RXB fire who pass panic (again)

RXBmen kill the exhalted champion !lol!

No wounds caused in the COK fight, but he stay put anyways. :?

Chaos 5:

warriors continue to move up, faces sorc and witches

one chosen warrior dies in combat with COK, stays

DE6:

COK charge the chosen warriors as well as witches, who fail

Doombolt kills 2 warriors, eliminating what is left of the unit

COK destroy the unit of chosen warriors

End of battle

DE: 2900 Chaos: 544 (massacre)

The revision in this case functioned a little under what my expectations were. I found the cauldron to be pretty useless compared to the two RBTs I could have used instead. The hand’s magic was not as good as it was in previous battles, both because of stronger resistance to magic of this chaos army and the lack of damage it can do except with black horror, and how the enemy army so very quickly moved into the standard range of most of the spells. I had partially expected to really want to field witches and a cauldron from now on in combination with a similar defensive army, but now I say no to such an idea as it really doesn’t get you anywhere, at least no farther than you’d get before without the revision.

Certainly, neither the increased Ld for the COK was a great factor, though the lone knight holding up the chosen warriors is rather an anomaly, though halting their frenzy was certainly a factor in that survival. The hand is still proving not to be too powerful, which is nice as I really like this item, though my opponent found it rather devastating when combined with the more magic heavy army and my lack of rolling ones.

Reduction in pts for the RXB was not exactly supprted by my opponent, but seeing as he plays chaos, he freely admitted he had little experience with missile troops and that mine were in no way overwhelming, just his luck with rolling for AS.

_________________
_
Image
The storm is coming...
Are you ready?


Last edited by Vorchild on Sat Apr 12, 2003 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Apr 06, 2003 1:56 am
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Noble
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Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2002 9:04 am
Posts: 413
Location: Hengelo, The Netherlands
Post 
Dark Elves vs. Bretionia 2000 pts. Pitched Battle


Dark Elves
High Sorceress (355)
Level Upgrade, Hand of S'Tarra, Dispel Scroll

Sorceress (175)
Level Upgrade, Staff of Slavery

Beastmaster (109)
Master of the Wild, Two Hand Weapons, Dispel Scroll

20 City Guard (240)
Hand Weapon, Spear (15), Repeater Crossbow (5), Light Armour, Shield, Musician, Standard Bearer, Lordling

10 Warriors (130)
Hand Weapon, Repeater Crossbow, Light Armour, Shield

6 Dark Riders (151)
Dark Steed, Spear, Repeater Crossbow, Light Armour, Musician

8 Cold One Knights (322)
Cold One, Lance, Heavy Armour, Shield, Musician, Standard Bearer, Dread Knight, Banner of Murder

9 Harpies (117)

1 War Hydra (200)

2 Reaper Bolt Throwers (200)


Bretonia
Duke (256)
warhorse, Sword of Battle, Heavy Armour, Shield, Mithril Great Helm, Holy Icon, Grail Virtue

Paladin (164)
Pegasus, Hand Weapon, Cuirass of Fortune, Enchanted Shield

Paladin (178)
Warhorse, Battle Standard, Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Banner of the Lady

Damsel of the Lady (155)
Level Upgrade, two Dispel Scrolls

Damsel of the Lady (155)
Level Upgrade, the Silver Mirror

8 Grail Knights (336)
War Horse, Lance, Heavy Armour, Shield, Musician, Standard Bearer, Champion, Banner of Defense

8 Knights of the Realm (252)
War Horse, Lance, Heavy Armour, Shield, Musician, Standard Bearer, Champion, Warbanner

5 Knights Errant (154)
War Horse, Lance, Heavy Armour, Shield, Musician, Standard Bearer, Champion, Errantry Banner

20 Men-at-Arms (125)
Hand Weapon, Shield, Light Armour, Musician, Standard Bearer, Sergeant

10 Bowmen (80)
Longbow

5 Mounted Squires (90)
Warhorse, Spear, Bow, Shield

5 Foresters (55)
Longbow


Terrain
___s______________
___sf_______f_____
_____h________b___
__________________
__________________

s= stream
f= forest
h= hill
b= building


Setup
---archers-ss----maa-kotr-grkn--p--mosq-for-kner
------------------------------------------------
--dark--rxb---hyd-cok-rbt-city-rbt---harpies----

s=stream
maa = men-at-arms
kotr = knights of the realm (and Battle Standard)
grkn = grail knights (and Duke)
p = paladin
mosq = mounted squires
for = foresters
kner = knights errant

dark= Dark Riders
rxb = Warriors
hyd = War Hydra
cok = Cold One Knights
rbt = Reaper Bolt Thrower
city= City Guard
harpies = Harpies

Dark Elf sorceresses next to city guard


Magic
Damsel #1 (in Knights of the Realm):
Forked Lightning
The Comet of Casandora

Damsel #2 (in Grail Knights)
Second Sign of Amul
Forked Lightning

High Sorceress
Doombolt
Word of Pain
Dominion
Black Horror

Sorceress
Steed of Shadows
Pit of Shades

Master of the Wild
The Wolf Hunts

Turn Summary
Dark Elf Turn 1: Cold Ones pass stupidity test. Warriors move forward in shooting range. Hydra and Cold Ones move forward, Harpies hide behind building. Sorceresses hide in City Guard. Black Horror (cast using the Hand) is dispelled using a scroll. Pit of Shades is mirrored back, but inflicts no damage.
Crossbow shooting kills five archers. The remaing Archers panic. A Reaper Bolt thrower kills four squires. The other is unable to shoot due to the Lady's Blessing.

Bretonia Turn 1: Archers rally, remaining army moves forward. All magic fails or is dispelled. Shooting kills one harpy.

Dark Elf Turn 2: Dark Riders charge Archers. Harpies charge Mounted Squire. Cold One Knights pass stupidty and charge Grail Knights. Hydra moves forward, Warriors turn towards Men-at-Arms. Black Horror is cast with Irrisistable Force on the knights of the Realm, killing four Knights. Staff of Slavery casts Dominion on Paladin.
One Reaper Bolt Thrower kills two Knights Errant, who panic and flee the table. The other one is unable to shoot. Hydra breath kills three Men-at-arms.
The Archers and the Mounted Squire are destroyed in close combat. Two Grail Knights are slain, and one Cold One Knight. The Cold Ones lose the battle, but hold.

Bretonia Turn 2: Men-at-Arms fail their terror test and flee. Knights of the Realm charge Cold One Knights in the flank. The Cold Ones Knights pass their panic test. Forked Lightnings kill five city Guards. Cold Ones are curshed in combat and break, but are not caught.

Dark Elf Turn 3: Cold One Knights rally. Harpies charge Foresters. Hydra charges Knights of the Realm, who fail their terror test and flee. Hydra redirects charge in Grail Knights. City Guard charges Paladin. The Wolf Hunts is cast on the Dark Riders who catch and destroy the Men-at-arms. Word of Pain is cast on the Paladin. Crossbowfire has no results, Reapers have no available targets and cannot shoot.
The Paladin is beaten in combat but holds. Two foresters are killed, and one harpy. The Foresters break and are caught by the harpies. The Hydra kills one Knight, no wounds in return. The Hydra looses combat ('cause a Lance formation doesn't have a flank).

Bretonia Turn 3: Grail Knights charge Hydra and destory it. Knights of the Realm fail to rally. Word of Pain is dispelled. Paladin kills one Guard, looses combat but holds.

Dark Elf Turn 4: Cold Ones pass stupidity test. Dark Riders charge Knights of the Realm, who flee the table. Cold Ones move towards paladin. Warriors move out off the Knight's charge arc. Black Horror is dispelled using a scroll. Word of Pain is cast on the Paladin. reaper kills one knight.
City Guard inflict three wounds on the Paladin's Pegasus; no wounds in return. The Paladin breaks but escapes.

Bretonia Turn 4: Paladin rallies. Knights of the Realm turn to face a Bolt Thrower.

Dark Elf Turn 5: Cold Ones pass stupidity test. City Guard and Harpies charge the Paladin. Dark Riders claim a table quarter; Warriors turn towards Grail Knights; Cold One Knights move towards safety. Word of Pain is maintained. Warriors kill a Grail Knights. One wound is inflicted on the Paladin, who kills one harpy. He breaks and is killed.

Bretonia Turn 5: Grail Knights charge Bolt Thrower; the crew flees but is caught. Forked Lightning is dispelled using a scroll.

Dark Elf Turn 6: Cold Ones pass stupidity test. Doombolt is cast on the Grail Knights, inflicting one wound on the Damsel.

Bretonia Turn 6: Forked Lightning kills two Harpies.

Result: Solid Victory Dark Elves 1799 - Bretonia 629


Evaluation
Hand of S'Tarra: With the Sorceresses hiding in the City Guard and facing the wrong way, the Hand was used often... and it didn't even crumble. It was a nice item to have.
In my opinion, the hand solved a bit of the range problems in Dark Magic and was useful at that, though still a bit expensive, and a big gamble for 75 points.
My opponent added that a few things could be done that are often impossible, such as casting a magic missile on a wizard hiding in the forest. Thus, it did more then fixing the range, and he agreed on the 75 points.
A spectator to the game found 75 points a bit expensive for an item that would only work a few times, and thought the point cost could be decreased by 5 or 10 points.

Staff of Slavery: Nice item. Got used only once, and was perhaps worth it's points even for that.
The 'drains only when dispelled' clause felt a bit cheap. It would be fairer to add a normal drain clause (dispelled or not, on a 1 on a D6, the Staff is drained). This feels as if we're trying to sneak around some rules. Other then that, my opponent agreed with this item.
On the choice between the Staff of Slavery and the Rod of Doom: both really help the Dark Elf army. The Staff of Slavery, however, has the best 'feel': it seems more Dark Elvish and fits better in the overal Dark Elf strategy of shock troops.

Beastmaster/Master of the Wild: The extended Beastmaster rules didn't add to the game, and felt a bit trivial. The Master of the Wild upgrade resulted in a single spell cast by the Beastmaster. When I asked my opponent about the Master of the Wild, the reaction was: "He didn't do much, did he?". The power dice generated by the Master of the Wild tend to be used by the Sorceresses. That makes that the Master of the Wild doesn't have a real presence on the battle field.
The Master of the Wild doesn't appear overpowered and it seems a reasonable upgrade. However, to change the Master of the Wild more into a Beastmaster and less into a Power Familiar, I favour modelling him as an Empire priest (cast one spell from Beast list each magic phase as a bound spell, power level 3).

City Guard: The strict formation rules (especially considering characters joining the unit) were really annoying in this battle. Before, I thought I would often take City Guard to upgrade the armour save of a Spear regiment. However, at present, I'll often opt to sacrifice this armour save in favour of increase manoeuvrability.
My opponent also felt that the formation rules were a distinct (perhaps to heavy) drawback, and therefore saw no problems in returning the City Guard.

Cheaper Repeater Crossbows, increased Cold One Knight Leadership, Cheaper War Hydra: Worked fine, no problems or comments here.

All in all, the revision function good were magic was concerned, as expected for the small modifications (rxb, cok, hydra). The Master of the Wild felt somewhat dissapointing, as did the City Guard.
It would certainly result in some changes, especially increased magic power. I would also expect the Cold One Knights to be fielded more often without a character, and the Master of the Wild to appear often as well.

A drawback: the game was most likely won because my opponents Knights of the Realm failed a terror test, and failed to rally. If this hadn't happened, there was little to be done against the Knights. My opponent agreed that, despite the revision, Dark Elves are at a loss versus high armour saves (especially in a tournament setting where I can't tailor my army just for killing things in armour). I would like the revision to cover this, though I haven't got any ideas on how this could be done.
Important, of course, is that I reach this conclusion after a battle with Bretonia, who have Knights that are even more protected by their lance formation and Banner of the lady, so perhaps things aren't as bad as they seem... but I am afraid they still aren't great.


Mon Apr 07, 2003 9:59 am
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Morathi's Favoured
Morathi's Favoured

Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:29 pm
Posts: 9728
Location: In the paintshop
Post 
My games against the Dwarves


The list used is posted above somewhere and unfortunately I have lost the notes so I will make some general comments here from memory. The two games played were against our local cheesey skaven man who chose to use his stumpies rather than the ratmen when we played these games ( go figure )

Before we started I said that my main objective was to get into combat with s4 / t4 troops to see how the changes would stack up. The tactics he employed in game 1 were pretty much determined to stop me doing this as he used magic and shooting from afar to do the damage. The first game was a solid victory to him, aided by the hand disintegrating in turn 1 :evil:

Game 2 was a rather different afair as I moaned somewhat about his lack of responsiveness to get into hth and try out our changes, despite all his pre-game ramblings about how powerful the revision is going to make the DEs he had already proved that it is possible to beat this list.

Game 2 proceeded with him trying the same avoiding tactics but I went after him with gusto, determined to get him into combat. By turn 3 we had just made it and the DE units were holding their own only for him to announce he had to leave for home :lol:

We parted company with my having proved to him, or rather he having proved to himself, that the Revision is NOT too powerful and that it can be beaten.

The moral victory is invaluable as all the reluctance to play and objections to the Revision were proven to be incorrect.

We are heavy into tourney practice now for the UK GT so I don't expect to get to play him again until we return.


Mon Apr 07, 2003 8:04 pm
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Shade
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2002 6:45 pm
Posts: 110
Location: Netherlands, Huizen
Post 
Playtesting Guidlines.


2. State Specific Scenario played.
Pitched battle



3. State complete army lists from both sides (roughly).



Druchii Army


1 Noble @ 143 Pts
General; Lance; Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield
Staff of Slavery [45]
1 Dark Steed @ [0] Pts (in DR2)

1 Sorceress @ 175 Pts
Magic Level 2; Lore of Dark Arts
Darkstar Cloak [20]
Dispel Scroll [25] (in corsairs)

1 Sorceress @ 192 Pts
Magic Level 2
Spellcall Familiar [25]
Dispel Scroll [25]
1 Dark Steed @ [0] Pts (in DR1)

19 Corsairs @ 225 Pts
2ndWeapon; Light Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak; Standard; Musician

1 Reaver @ [10] Pts

6 Dark Riders @ 122 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Standard

6 Dark Steed @ [0] Pts

6 Dark Riders @ 115 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Musician

6 Dark Steed @ [0] Pts

16 Executioners @ 284 Pts
Great Weapon; Light Armour; Standard; Musician
Banner of Relentless Assault [50]

1 Draich-master @ [12] Pts

8 Harpies @ 104 Pts
2ndWeapon

5 Cold One Knights @ 210 Pts
Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Standard
1 Dread Knight @ [18] Pts



5 Cold One Knights @ 210 Pts
Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Standard
1 Dread Knight @ [18] Pts


1 War Hydra @ 220 Pts

Casting Pool: 7
Dispel Pool: 4
Models in Army: 75

Total Army Cost: 2000


I wanted to test how lone COK units would function without the help of a beastmaster or highborn. The noble with staff of slavery could also be very mean. Because he is in fast cav unit, he could move up next to a unit’s flank and cast dominion the unit, so it won’t be able to face the fast cav next turn, and it can be charged in the side. The same goes for the Sorceress in the other DR unit. She just chooses dominion with the spellcall familiar, so you can apply the same tactic to her. I decided to give the hydra a final try. It really doesn’t seem worth it to me when you compare it to a chariot, but who knows what it could do. Corsairs were taken instead of cityguard, because corsairs are more suited in a attacking army. Harpies were taken for taking out war machines.


Dwarfs Army

1 Runesmith @ 157 Pts (With Warriors 1)
Great Weapon; Gromril Armour
Runic Talisman [75]
Master Rune of Balance
Rune of Spellbreaking

1 Thane @ 129 Pts (With Ironbreakers)
General; Dwarf Handgun; Gromril Armour; Shield
Runic Weapon [50]
Master Rune of Swiftness
Rune of Fury

1 Thane @ 81 Pts (With warriors 2)
Great Weapon; Dwarf Handgun; Gromril Armour

11 Thunderers @ 205 Pts
Dwarf Handgun; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician
1 Veteran @ [10] Pts

11 Thunderers @ 205 Pts
Dwarf Handgun; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician
1 Veteran @ [10] Pts

19 Warriors @ 205 Pts
Heavy Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician

1 Veteran @ [10] Pts

19 Warriors @ 205 Pts
Heavy Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician

1 Veteran @ [10] Pts

19 Iron Breakers @ 340 Pts
Gromril Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician
Runic Banner [50]
Rune of Courage

1 Iron Beard @ [12] Pts

1 Dwarf Cannon @ 100 Pts

1 Dwarf Cannon @ 100 Pts

1 Organ Gun @ 125 Pts
Dwarf Misfire Chart


1 Gyrocopter @ 140 Pts

Dispel Pool: 5
Models in Army: 100
Total Army Cost: 1992

4. Prepare a rough map of the setup.

------------HHH-------------------------
------------HH---------------------FF---
------------------------------------------
-----RR-----FFF---------TT-------HH----
------------------------------------------
-----------RR----------------------------

R=ROCKS
H=HILL
T=TOWER
F=FOREST

------------------------------EXE--------CO1
--DR1------HAR-------COR-CO2-HY----DR2
------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
---war2-ca2-thu2---gyr-iro-war1-ca1-thu1-
------------------------------------------------

DR1= Dark rider 1
HAR= Harpies
COR= Corsairs
EXE= Executioners
C02= Cold one knights 2
CO1= Cold one knights 1
DR2= Dark rider 2
HY= Hydra


War2= Warriors
Ca2= cannon 2
Thu2= Thunderers 2
Gyr= Gyrocopter
Iro= Ironbreakers
War1= Warriors 1
Ca1= Cannon 1
Thu1= Thunderers 1



5. Record concisely what happened on each turn.


Druchii turn 1

Dwarfs win roll off and let Druchii go first.

The cold one knights pass their stupidity tests with ease. The harpies who are deployed behind the hill fly toward the wood in the middle of the table giving the a view of the dwarf war machines. All the units move full speed toward the dwarfs. DR 1 stays out of the thunderers sight. Both COK units move with firing range of the dwarfs. DR2 who is screening the COK moves with firing range of thunderers.

Magic: The sorceress attempts to cast black horror but miscasts, ending the magic phase.

Dwarfs turn 1

Thunderers on the left wheel toward the dark riders so the can see them. And the Canon on the left can see the side of Cold one unit 1. Iron breakers move forward out of the dwarf line toward the corsairs. The gyrocopter moves toward the harpies, ready to steam them to death.

Shooting: The Canon on the left fires straight into the side of the cold one knights and kills 5 out of 6 knights. The Organ gun kills the last Knight. Thunderers on the right fire into the Dark rider unit with noble and kill 2 of them. The thunderers who just wheeled killed 1 Dark riders. All panic tests are passed.

Druchii turn 2

Both the stupidity tests are passed, one of them on the roll of a 9 (hurray!). The harpies charge the canon next to Dwarf warrior unit 1. Dark rider unit 2 moves behind the thunderers. The cold one knight unit behind them moves full speed toward the thunderers, right in front of them. The corsairs can’t march due to being in proximity of the Gyrocopter. The hydra moves straight toward warriors unit 1. The Dark rider unit 2 on the left moves just like DR2 behind the thunderers and warrior unit 1 and canon.

Magic: All magic is stopped, but I managed to cast dominion with staff of slavery on the thunderer unit facing the cold ones, and I disallowed shooting at them next turn.

Combat was pretty disappointing. The harpies managed not to inflict a single wound, whereas the crew killed a harpy. It was a draw since I outnumbered the crew.

Dwarfs turn 2

The all dwarf units pass their terror tests (hydra). The Thunderers facing the COK decide to charge them (because they may not shoot due to dominion), but they fail their fear test, so they stay put. Warrior unit one turns around to face the Dark riders behind them. The Thunderers on the left move toward the battle on the right. The gyrocopter moves toward the executioners.

Shooting: The organ kills a single executioner. The gyrocopter wounds 6 executioners. 2 are saved by the banner of Relentless assault.

Combat: The harpies make up for last turns combat and kill 2 of the crew of the canon. The crew kill another harpy, but they still flee. The harpies catch them and pursue of the table.

Druchii turn 3

The cold one unit facing the thunderers fails its stupidty test (doh), and moves 3 inch forward, which is enough to charge the thunderers (hurray). The executioners and hydra charge warrior unit 1, which decides to flee. The executioners fail their charge, but the hydra redirects into the dwarf organ gun, who also flee. The Dark riders on the left charge the canon in the back. The dark rider unit with noble behind the thunderers moves toward the ironbreakers ready to charge them next turn. The harpies who return from their journey of the table, move next to the fleeing organ gun crew. The Corsairs move toward the ironbreakers, but try to stay out charge range.

Magic: Everything is halted by dwarf magic, except the staff of slavery which is cast on the ironbreakers. They can’t move so next turn the will be charged by a lot of units (PRAISE KHAINE FOR DOMINION).

Combat: The cold one knights kill 5 thunderers, with no loss in return. The thunderes autobreak and are overrun. The COK pursue of the table. The Dark riders kill of the canon crew, but they don’t manage to reach the back of the dwarf thunderers who were only 8 inch away (I rolled 7).

Dwarfs turn 3
The organ gun crew rally, but the dwarf warrior unit doesn’t, and the flee of the table, rolling a 11. The ironbreakers can’t move due to dominion. The dwarf warrior unit on the left turn’s to face the dark riders again, and so does the thunderer unit. The gyrocopter moves toward DR 1.

Shooting: The thunderers kill all the Dark riders, the sorceress remains. The gyrocopter kills a single Dark rider.

No combat.

Druchii turn 4

Stupidty is passed on a 9(!)
Executioners, hydra, corsairs and Dark riders with noble charge the ironbreakers on all sides. The harpies charge the organ gun crew. The lone sorceress moves to the back of the dwarf warrior unit on left, staying out sight of the thunderers. The cold one unit moves toward the big fight with the ironbreakers.

Magic was all but stopped.

The harpies kill 2 crewmembers, but lone crewman stays put. The thane with ironbreakers strikes first and kills 2 executioners, so only the exe champ can strike (only 3 exes are in Base to base contact). The champ killing blows a ironbreaker, and the noble kills another 2. the other attacks are saved by the damned armour save of the ironbreakers. The irobreakers themselves manage 3 wounds on various targets, but in the end it isn’t enough and they flee, being caught by all Dark elf units.
At this point the dwarf player concedes.




6. End result including numbers ie: Draw DE 999 HE 958.

Massacre the dwarf player conceded. At the point he conceded, the score was:
DE: 1433
Dwarfs: 322

Please address the following questions at the end of your testing results :

1. How effectively did the revision function, was it up to expectations? How?
The hydra was not worth it as usual. Due to average weapon skill, it usually misses half of its attacks. The things strengths isn’t all that great when fighting T4 troops, nor is it’s armour penetration. This really is the last time a take the hydra, unless it gets changed. To me, reapers are far more handy and effective.
The executioners heavy armour was okay, and they performed okay in combat without abilities, although they didn’t see much of it. The banner of relentless assault was not worth it though. Compared to the skaven ‘Umbranner’ (35pts) banner, which has 4+ ward save against shooting of str4 or less, I find this less effective. 5+ Ward save is great against all sorts of missile fire, but to pay 50 points for that? Remember it’s only a save against shooting, and not a vary good save at that. You will still only save 1 third of your casualties. I much rather have a banner of murder than this banner of RA, even though ill loose some casualties. Against skaven this item might be worth it, since they will be shooting into combats, but against all other armies it’s kind of useless after you have entered combat…
Cold one knights were great, and the LD9 helped out. The single time a failed a stupidty test, was when I was about to charge a thunderer unit. I charged anyway because I moved up 3 inch, which was enough to get into combat.

2. Will this change make a significant difference, how?
Yes defiantly especially my characters have gotten a different role and outfit.


3. Would you feel that the Dark Elf revision is now "cheezy" if you were playing AGAINST it? How? Why?

Well, the ‘twin dominions’ were pretty powerful. The dark rider + dominion combo is certainly a deadly one, and both my DR units had the power to use the combo due to spellcall familiar and staff of slavery. My army wasn’t that magic heavy, although I think in a magic heavy army this combo is very deadly and game winning. I don’t know if it’s cheesy but it is certainly powerful. Dominion really was the game winner for me in this game, but I will test later if it will be as powerful again next game.

4. Are there some ways these changes could lead to significant abuse, or completely unrealistic
Other than the above, none.

5. Did the revision function co-operatively with the rest of the army? How?
Defiantly, it still felt very dark elfish. Meaning fast, sneaky and downright dirty. I really love the staff of slavery and I find It a much more useful and fluffier item than the Rod of Doom. The hydra was still worthless though.

6. Should there be any restrictions on it's use? How?
No I think not.

7. What did your opponent think of the revision, with reasons.

Opponents own written comments:
Now it is a pretty good and balanced list with a few flaws. Finally the Dark Elf list can play a little defensive. Just some notes, the Hydra really is not worth the points. A strength or WS increase or a point reduction would be in place. About the two new bound spell items, the staff of slavery can lead to a real change of course in the battle, which I think is not the point of just a bound spell. The banner of RA is real crap for its points. You will charge in turn 3 and so it will not be that useful. The heavy armor of the Executioners is real good. Now they can stand up to some units. About the crap of not being able to kill knights, if you can’t kill them with brute force, you might try it with combat resolution as you have way more maneuverability than any other army. Btw, what High Elf unit can kill knights?! Maybe White Lions, but they’re not worth it.
In one situation, when you have 2 Dark Rider units, with one goes a mage with Spellcall familiar (chooses Dominion), in the other goes a hero with staff of slavery>>>Dominion on two sides. Little overpowered and probably abusive in Magic Heavy armies.
Conclusion: List is good overall, drop the staff of slavery and keep the rod of doom. Hydra needs improvement and banner of RA sucks.

_________________
War is not about who is right, but who is left.


Tue Apr 08, 2003 8:40 pm
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Dark Rider

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:21 pm
Posts: 139
Location: UK
Post 
Cheese-Fest extraordinaire

2000 point pitched battle

Dark Elf army:

Highborn+Manticore+Staff of Slavery+Blood Armour+Seal of Ghrond+Sea Dragon Cloak+Lance+Shield

Noble+Pegasus+Well of Souls (Soul Stealer version)+Lance+Heavy Armour+Shield

Sorceress+Xtra Level+2 Dispel Scrolls – with Chillwind and Black Horror

Beastmaster+Master of the Wild+Spell Call Familiar+Dark Steed+Spear – with The Wolf Hunts

10 Dark Riders + Standard Bearer (1)

9 Dark Riders + Standard Bearer (2)

10 Warriors+RXBs

25 Executioners+Full Command+Standard of Slaughter

10 Harpies


High Elves

Commander+Armour of Protection+Elven Steed+Lance+Shield

Mage+extra level+Seer+Guardian Phoenix – Drain Magic+Vaul’s Unmaking (general)

Mage+xtra level+2xDispel Scroll – Drain Magic+Walk Between Worlds

20 Spearmen+ Full Command

20 Spearmen+Full Command

9 Silver Helms+Full Command+Lion Standard

20 SwordMasters+Full Command+Standard of Balance

Tiranoc Chariot

2 Great Eagles

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers


Terrain

Small Wood Centre Left

Ruined Building Right of High Elf deployment zone

Small Hill centre right

Setup

Dark Elves: Left to right:

Highborn/DarkRider1/ RXB/Sorceress/Executioners/DarkRider2 (with BM)/Harpies/Noble

High Elves left to right:

Great Eagle1/Chariot/RBT1/Spearmen1 with Mage/Swordmasters/Spearmen2 with mage/RBT2/Silver Helms with Commander/Great Eagle2


Turn 1 – DEs win first turn

Highborn – advances behind wood
Noble – advances behind hill, with Harpies
DR1 reforms and advances behind wood
RXB shoots Spearmen1 and causes 4 casualties
Sorceress casts chillwind at RBT1 – HEs fail to dispel
Executioners advance into centre of table
DR2 reform and advance behind hill

HE

RBT2 shoots at Executioners and causes 2 casualties
SwordMasters+Spears2 advance towards Executioners
SilverHelms move to right edge of hill
Eagle1 lands next to wood
Eagle2 lands next to Hill
Chariot advances and turns to face left side of wood
Spears1 advance and turn to face right of wood

Mage casts drain magic on sorceress, dispelled; casts walk between worlds successfully
Other mage casts drain magic with irresistible force on sorceress

Turn 2 – DEs

Noble lands next to SilverHelms, casts Soul Stealer on spears2, dispelled with dispel scroll
Harpies land in front of RBT2
Highborn lands next to RBT1, crew fails terror test and flees; casts Dominion on Spearmen 1 with irresistible force.
RXBs kill Great Eagle1
DR1 charges flank of Spearmen1, win combat by 4, spearmen hold
Sorceress casts chillwind on RBT2, dispelled
BM successfully casts Wolf Hunts on Executioners
Executioners charge Swordmasters, cause 8 casualties and win combat by 7 – Swordmasters break and flee, Executioners run down SwordMasters, Spears 2 fail panic test and flee
DR2 move around hill to face silver helms right flank

HEs

SilverHelms move behind hill and turn to face DR2
Spears2 rally
Chariot turns to face Highborn
Spears1 draw combat with DR1
Great Eagle 2 charges sorceress, who flees off the board
RBT2 kills 4 Harpies, who fail break test and flee – Noble passes panic test

Turn 3

DEs

Harpies flee off board
Highborn moves to left flank of Spears1, casts dominion on spearmen1, dispelled with dispel dice
RXBs reform and kill great Eagle 2
Noble casts soul stealer at spearmen2, dispelled, charges flank of spearmen2
Executioners charge spearmen 2 – cause 5 wounds, with 2 from noble, DEs win by 5, spearmen break and are run down by Noble – executioners pursue into RBT2
DR 2 reform and march to right flank of SilverHelms
Spears1 win combat vs DR1, DR1 pass break test via Highborn’s leadership

HEs

Silver Helms reform to face executioners
Mage casts Vaul’s Unmaking – dispelled
Spearmen1 win combat, DR1 flee, spearmen restrain pursuit
Chariot fails charge against executioners (by 1 inch!)

Turn 4
Highborn charges Silverhelms, refuses challenge, causes 4 casualties, loses combat to musician, passes break test
Noble charges flank of Spears1, casts Soulstealer, causes 9 wounds
DR2 charges Spears1, win by 4, spears1 break, run down by Noble
Executioners Butcher RBT crew

High elf player concedes


Major Victory for DEs!


Commentary – Neither my opponent nor myself had any real issues with the Well of Souls or Staff of Sorcery – they were useful, but not game winning. Nice to have some magical support without tons of sorceresses, but only really useful as a nasty trick, rather than a basis for designing an army – in future I’d drop the highborn for a High Sorceress with Hand of Starra.

Not so sure about the fairness of the Beastmaster I fielded – Spell familiar+Master of the Wild is potentially very nasty (particularly against a missile heavy or cavalry heavy army), especially if the Beastmaster was put into a unit of Cold Ones (which I intended to do but lacked the points). Solution would be to remove ability to choose arcane items?

Executioners, definitely the game winners, but in hindsight rather too overpowered, Relentless assault is just too nasty – when I used them against Chaos last week, this exact same unit destroyed half my opponent’s army. With an assassin, and the banner of relentless assault (5+ ward save vs missile fire) a large executioner unit is virtually unstoppable. As stand, are too much of an automatic choice.

RXBs are priced about right for a support unit, which is what they are.

Dark Riders again proved their worth, great on the charge with other units, bad when stuck in prolonged combat.


Wed May 21, 2003 8:34 pm
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