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Spearmen ideas poll 

What do you think is the best solution for the spearmen, and why?
Cheaper spearmen (8 points) 50%  50%  [ 4 ]
Citizen levy (fight in 3 ranks) 13%  13%  [ 1 ]
AP and S4 when charged by cavalry 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Free refrom at the end of the movement phase 13%  13%  [ 1 ]
Spearwall: +1 to hit with spearelves 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Spearwall v2: -1 to hit against spearelves 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Spearwall v3: Casualties can still fight back 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Spearwall v4: -1 to hit against spearelves and +1 to hit with spearelves 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
When charged spearmen and enemy fails charge, spearmen can counter charge. 13%  13%  [ 1 ]
+1 strength first round of combat. 13%  13%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 8

Spearmen ideas poll 
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Shade
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Because there are so many ideas for the spearmen right now, it seems a good idea to start a poll to see what the public opinion is, so the head-playtesters can see public opinion clearly.
It might be a good idea to make this poll sticky by the moderators.

I think only the ideas that are in the poll should be discussed here. New ideas should be made in the 'sticky' spearmen thread, to keep things clear.

Anyway my vote goes to the free reform rule. It seems most original, unique and quite fluffy. However, I'm not sure if this rule can lead to abuse.

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Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:46 pm
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Assassin
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Why someone lock this post??

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Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:28 pm
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Highborn
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+1S in FIRST round of combat, BUT not only for a charge like with spears for Cav, but also when they got charged.

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Mon Apr 14, 2003 10:54 pm
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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Some of these ideas are either too powerful or not effective enough.

Free reform for example, would make a great banner for 1 unit but 3 or 4 units of reforming spearmen would guarantee flank charges everywhere, you'd own the board. I know beastmen can do it but they don't negate ranks.

+1 S is not as good as 2 attacks from corsairs. So once again spearmen are useless.

We don't at this time know the exact points reduction GAV is willing to concede. So that is a premature option as well.

I think you need to consider different options before voting on anything, it is too premature at this time.

I'll get back to you when I know more, which should be in a few days. Be patient! :D

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Tue Apr 15, 2003 1:05 am
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Highborn
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I got one question - Do we REALY NEED SPEARLEVES?

We have Rxbowelves, Citguards and Corsairs for light CORE infantry so do we REALY need another unit? Rxbows work well for shooting, Cityguards for defending and Corsairs for agressive attacking, so what else do we need?

We are thinking about Spearelves UPGRADE, but isnt Cityguard formation the one?

I would make our CORE list like that:

Dark Riders
Corsairs
Drannach Warriors (Cityguard)
>"druchii name for rxbow"< Warriors

and thats all! I REALY dont think we need another redundant unit, besides "standard" speareleves never fitted Drak Elf fluff.

What can be better on attack that Corsairs with SDC and 2A and on defence like Drannach Warriors (Cityguards)with 4+ AS and ability to shoot charging enemy straight in the face. There is no place for spearelves, so lets erase them from our list (you can still create unit of Spearelves by choosing Drannach Warriors WITHOUT rxbows in front line).

Now all this debate about Spears seems to be like inventing the circle again...

Lets better concentrate on choosing RIGHT option for Execs - they still dont have approved fix (while I think that Cityguards have fixed spears more hen better - they are competative for Corsairs and still not a no-brainer choice).


(in fact all this discussion about spearelves realy suprised me, because I thought that Cityguards demand in our Petition realy SOLVED the problem).

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Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:52 am
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Morathi's Favoured
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The more I think about it the more my vote goes for Spearelves at 8points a model including shield, with heavy armour as a 1 point upgrade.

Despite what Gav would like to do, Spears are just not an offensive weapon. So if he wants to see them going forwards why not just reduce their cost so we can field more of them, enabling us to get the outnumber + rank bonuses for longer during combat. Then by the second round we have another unit in support, hitting the enemy in the flank.

Initially I liked the idea of free reform but when I try that out by moving boards around a table top the more I realise the potential for overpowering. Langmann is right that with 2 or 3 units of spears doing that you would own the battlefield. If you think about it, the threat is so great they do not even need to be units bigger than 10 strong. With them you could stop any charge hitting any of your key units.

S4 doesn't do it for me 'coz 2 attacks is always better than 1. We have proved that time and again by shooting our rxbs twice rather than once.

None of the other stuff excites me either. I just want a really cheap troop choice and I think the points drop achieves just that and with the right unit. Keep the other spear rules the same and then they are not competing with Corsairs as they will both have different tactical uses.


Tue Apr 15, 2003 10:52 am
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Hunter Of The Night
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If we didn't have Spear Elves as a unit then GW would have to change all the Dark Elf Warrior box designs so it showed them in Cityguard formation. I doubt GW would be willing to spend a load of money doing this. Anyway I still think we should have an offensive Spearmen regiment.


Tue Apr 15, 2003 10:53 am
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Noble
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Dark Alliance wrote:
S4 doesn't do it for me 'coz 2 attacks is always better than 1. We have proved that time and again by shooting our rxbs twice rather than once.

This isn't true. Against T4+ and/or better Armour Saves S4 is better then two S3 attacks. For the repeater crossbow it is true that two attacks is better, but that is because the modifier works only on 'to hit'; S4 works on both 'to wound' and armour save, and that makes it better in certain circumstances.


Tue Apr 15, 2003 4:47 pm
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I voted for cheaper spearmen right now all the proposed alternatives doesn't sound right.

(A whee little voice keeps on banging "give spearmen strength 4 with their weapon" it gives a nice twist against wounding T3 and the T4 troopers. But I just cannot garantue the symbiosum with the rest of the army.

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Tue Apr 15, 2003 5:37 pm
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I voted for cheaper spearmen right now all the proposed alternatives doesn't sound right.

(A whee little voice keeps on banging "give spearmen strength 4 with their weapon" it gives a nice twist against wounding T3 and the T4 troopers. But I just cannot garantue the symbiosum with the rest of the army.

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Tue Apr 15, 2003 5:37 pm
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Highborn
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Dark Alliance wrote:
The more I think about it the more my vote goes for Spearelves at 8points a model including shield, with heavy armour as a 1 point upgrade.

Despite what Gav would like to do, Spears are just not an offensive weapon. So if he wants to see them going forwards why not just reduce their cost so we can field more of them, enabling us to get the outnumber + rank bonuses for longer during combat. Then by the second round we have another unit in support, hitting the enemy in the flank.

Initially I liked the idea of free reform but when I try that out by moving boards around a table top the more I realise the potential for overpowering. Langmann is right that with 2 or 3 units of spears doing that you would own the battlefield. If you think about it, the threat is so great they do not even need to be units bigger than 10 strong. With them you could stop any charge hitting any of your key units.

S4 doesn't do it for me 'coz 2 attacks is always better than 1. We have proved that time and again by shooting our rxbs twice rather than once.

None of the other stuff excites me either. I just want a really cheap troop choice and I think the points drop achieves just that and with the right unit. Keep the other spear rules the same and then they are not competing with Corsairs as they will both have different tactical uses.


As I have said before, this is possibly the best solution.

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Tue Apr 15, 2003 6:01 pm
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Highborn
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I think DA'a solution is the best.

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Tue Apr 15, 2003 6:04 pm
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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I like DA's solution myself as well. ;)

A cheap troop that can be used as sacrificial lambs to draw charges is what I have always wanted.

Plus they can be stacked with large numbers such that they can take a pounding.

The more stats I work out with this unit the better they seem.

@ Purple:

Yes there are some rare circumstances against heavily armoured (and I am talking knights and dwarfs (who are not always AS3+) when S4 is better, and only very slightly.

However corsairs would still be the best troop for all purpose use, IMHO. Spears would get pigeonholed into a unit rarely used.

Finally if we want to bust heavily armoured things, executioners, CoK, CoC, hydra, BG, RBT all come to mind. I have never regretted bringing executioners against dwarfs, small flanking units of them paired with a unit that can hold such as corsairs works quite nicely.

vs T3 AS 5+

corsair 45% wound.
S4 spear 37% wound.

vs T4 AS 5+ (orcs)

corsairs 30% wound.
S4 spear 28% wound.

vs t4 AS 3+ (dwarf core)

corsair 11 % wound.
S4 spear 12.5% wound.

This is why I favor Dark Alliance's idea of just a cheap troop type. Corsairs would still have their advantages. Also it has a fluffy aspect to it. I mean all dark elf cities are composed of reserve troops, even the women fight. Thus these troops should be easily raised, and the cheap price reflects this. For the cheap price of 8 points and 9 points with heavy armour they are decent then for what they can do and worth the cost.

I guess since HE get cheap magic, we get cheap spearmen?

Also the garrison formation can still be an upgrade to the spearmen, thus making a better unit out of spearmen, but at the same time making spearmen worth taking.

Originally I was concerned that Gav would not allow price reductions for certain troop types. Now however he seems interested in that, and so I think we should try and persuade him of this.

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Tue Apr 15, 2003 6:26 pm
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So for 9 points HA, spear but how mutch for a command??
I'm for it but guys one again take a look at Reades and my proposition of new charge reaction.

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Tue Apr 15, 2003 6:48 pm
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I totaly agree with DA and Langmann - Spearelves with reduced cost are JUST FINE - and they get "upgrade" or "additional rule"-> The Cityguards.

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Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:29 pm
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Highborn
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I totaly agree with DA and Langmann - Spearelves with reduced cost are JUST FINE - and they get "upgrade" or "additional rule" - The Cityguards.

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"Prick your finger it is done
the moon has now eclypsed the sun
an angel has spread his wings
the time has come for bitter things"
-M.M


Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:30 pm
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Highborn
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I totaly agree with DA and Langmann - Spearelves with reduced cost are JUST FINE - and they get upgrade or additional rule - The Cityguards.

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"Prick your finger it is done
the moon has now eclypsed the sun
an angel has spread his wings
the time has come for bitter things"
-M.M


Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:31 pm
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Highborn
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I totaly agree with DA and Langmann - Spearelves with reduced cost are JUST FINE - and they get upgrade or additional rule - The Cityguards.

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"Prick your finger it is done
the moon has now eclypsed the sun
an angel has spread his wings
the time has come for bitter things"
-M.M


Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:31 pm
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Highborn
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I totaly agree with DA and Langmann - Spearelves with reduced cost are JUST FINE - and they get upgrade or additional rule - The Cityguards.

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"Prick your finger it is done
the moon has now eclypsed the sun
an angel has spread his wings
the time has come for bitter things"
-M.M


Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:32 pm
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Highborn
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I totaly agree with DA and Langmann - Spearelves with reduced cost are JUST FINE - and they get upgrade or additional rule - The Cityguards.

_________________
"Prick your finger it is done
the moon has now eclypsed the sun
an angel has spread his wings
the time has come for bitter things"
-M.M


Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:32 pm
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Highborn
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I totaly agree with DA and Langmann - Spearelves with reduced cost are JUST FINE - and they get upgrade or additional rule - The Cityguards.

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"Prick your finger it is done
the moon has now eclypsed the sun
an angel has spread his wings
the time has come for bitter things"
-M.M


Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:33 pm
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Highborn
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I totaly agree with DA and Langmann - Spearelves with reduced cost are JUST FINE - and they get upgrade or additional rule - The Cityguards.


Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:33 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Not really interested in any of these rules sorry Reader...

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Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:41 pm
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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I am locking this post since we have two now going on! It's confusing, plus some issues have changed.

Trust me I will know shortly what Gav says about this and I will get back to you when I know EXACTLY what is on the table.

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While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."


Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:07 pm
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