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Druchii.net AB FAQ. 
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Dragon Lord
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Greetings fellow Druchii!

Since our book was released a couple months back we've been waiting with bated breath for Games Workshop to release a much needed FAQ, not only for our book but also for those released before ours. High Elves and Lizardmen are also still waiting for their updates (and I'm sure Dwarfs will be asking for one soon as well).

We've seen you ask many questions in our Rules forum and you have received answers from the community. Yet the same questions appear to crop up time and again (making them by default "frequently asked").

In light of this, the moderator team of Druchii.net took it upon themselves to compile and answer those questions ourselves. We can count frequent tournament players, rules lawyers and obsessive/compulsive rulebook readers among our ranks and we believe that we have created a document that reflects the spirit of the game as closely as possible.

In absence of an FAQ released by GW, these are Druchii.net's suggestions and recommendations on the issues that crop up frequently and will be updated often as new information becomes available.

So enjoy, my dark brethren.

Druchii.net AB FAQ

Sa'an'ishar!

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Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:57 am
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Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:32 am
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Good initiative, and I'm glad to see that many of the previously slightly more controversial rulings (like disallowing magic armour from Assassins) have been removed since the previous discussions.

I think that you need to add a ruling on how BoWD and Black Horror interact, this is a quite complicated issue.

Some specific feedback:

-------
Q: If a Death Hag charges out of a unit Frenzied due to Witchbrew, does the unit still need to take a Leadership test to avoid charging?

A: No. If the Death Hag declares her own charge, the unit is ineligible to make a charge (RB p.101).
-------

This is a 7:th edition ruling, in 8:th edition any unit with one or more frenzied models make a single roll to see if they have to charge or not. Therefore, the scenario covered above can never occur.

-------
Q: How does BS shooting work against the combined unit?

A: Per characters of different troop type in units rules (RB p.99), the Cauldron/Shrine can be hit by BS shooting but can't be hit more than once until every model in the unit has had a single hit allocated to it as well.
-------

This should be clarified, it is the controlling player who choses whether or not he likes to allocate one of the hits onto the CoB/Shrine (but cannot allocate a second hit to any model until each has had one hit allocated, and so on).

-------
Q: How does the Lore of Beasts attribute work on a Cauldron of Blood, Bloodwrack Shrine or the unit containing either of these?

A: The Lore attribute (RB p.493) makes spells easier to cast only on beasts, or creatures attuned to the wilderness. As neither the Cauldron nor Shrine are pulled by any beast, they do not benefit from the Beasts Lore Attribute, nor grant this benefit to the unit they reside in.
-------

This is not consistent with the rulebook, as it specifically includes Chariots in the list of benefitting troop types and both the CoB and Shrine are definitely chariots. The ruling should only concern the mixed case.

-------
Q: What happens if the Kharibdyss' Feast of Bones targets one specific Rank and File model?
A: Any hits caused by the Feast of Bones may not cause damage to any model other than the targeted one. For example, a Kharibdyss allocates all of its attacks against an Ogre Irongut and hits with all of them, triggering Feast of Bones which causes additional 4 hits. Because the ogre only has 3 wounds, roll the feast of bones hits separately, and if you cause more than 3 wounds the excess is lost. The regular attacks can spill over onto the rest of the unit (unless the targeted model was the champion, of course).
-------

This is very unclear, I can roll for Feast of Bones first, kill the Irongut, and then have all regular hits carry over to the unit?


Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:00 am
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Thanks for the feedback. :)
Quote:
Q: If a Death Hag charges out of a unit Frenzied due to Witchbrew, does the unit still need to take a Leadership test to avoid charging?

A: No. If the Death Hag declares her own charge, the unit is ineligible to make a charge (RB p.101).
-------
This is a 7:th edition ruling, in 8:th edition any unit with one or more frenzied models make a single roll to see if they have to charge or not. Therefore, the scenario covered above can never occur.
8th ed BRB p.70: "If, during the Charge sub-phase, a unit that includes one or more Frenzied models could declare a charge, then it must do so unless a Ld test is passed."
The Ld roll will happen only if the wish is NOT to charge at all.
As the decision is to charge, there is no test for the DH. As the DH charges out, the rest of the unit cannot charge at all and there is no test either.

Quote:
Q: How does BS shooting work against the combined unit?

A: Per characters of different troop type in units rules (RB p.99), the Cauldron/Shrine can be hit by BS shooting but can't be hit more than once until every model in the unit has had a single hit allocated to it as well.
-------

This should be clarified, it is the controlling player who choses whether or not he likes to allocate one of the hits onto the CoB/Shrine (but cannot allocate a second hit to any model until each has had one hit allocated, and so on).
That's how it works indeed.

Code:
Q: How does the Lore of Beasts attribute work on a Cauldron of Blood, Bloodwrack Shrine or the unit containing either of these?

A: The Lore attribute (RB p.493) makes spells easier to cast only on beasts, or creatures attuned to the wilderness. As neither the Cauldron nor Shrine are pulled by any beast, they do not benefit from the Beasts Lore Attribute, nor grant this benefit to the unit they reside in.
-------

This is not consistent with the rulebook, as it specifically includes Chariots in the list of benefitting troop types and both the CoB and Shrine are definitely chariots. The ruling should only concern the mixed case.
A quick reading leads to conclude as you do. However, a deeper reading of RAW and the understanding of RAI tells the opposite: the Lore Attribute rule starts with the sentence "Spells of the Lore of Beasts are easier to cast on beasts, or creatures attuned to the wilderness."; Chariots (p.86) are "wheeled war vehicle drawn into battle by beasts of some kind", while Will of God rule starts with "The chariot is not pulled by beasts".
Noting that COB/BwS miss the very part of chariots that specifically triggers the Lore attrbute, we concluded that this attribute did not have effect on them.

Code:
Q: What happens if the Kharibdyss' Feast of Bones targets one specific Rank and File model?
A: Any hits caused by the Feast of Bones may not cause damage to any model other than the targeted one. For example, a Kharibdyss allocates all of its attacks against an Ogre Irongut and hits with all of them, triggering Feast of Bones which causes additional 4 hits. Because the ogre only has 3 wounds, roll the feast of bones hits separately, and if you cause more than 3 wounds the excess is lost. The regular attacks can spill over onto the rest of the unit (unless the targeted model was the champion, of course).
-------

This is very unclear, I can roll for Feast of Bones first, kill the Irongut, and then have all regular hits carry over to the unit?
That rule creates difficulties when targeting a single R&F, for who extra wounds carry over to the unit.
D.net ruling is that regular wounds carry over, but not Feast of Bones wounds. Feast of Bones wounds are therefore capped at the number of wounds that a R&F model has.

Hope this clarifies your queries.

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Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:41 am
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Strength of Khaine (p.47)
Q: Does this rule benefit to spells? Shooting?
Chariot impact hits? Mounts?</i>
A: As Strength of Khaine applies only to models
with Murderous Prowess, apply the limitations of
Murderous Prowess to Strength of Khaine,
treating it as an extra buff to that rule. Spells,
missiles, chariot impacts, mounts attacks do not
benefit from Strength of Khaine.

---------------------------------------------------

This about the only thing I do not agree with tbh, since as written there really is no ambiguity. Its an upgrade to models with murderous prowess, not an upgrade to murderous prowess itself. Though mount themselves do not benefit from Murderous Prowess so wouldn't benefit from Strength of Khaine either so in agreement there.

Short of completely rewriting the Strength of Khaine rule we cannot really bend it to not include all types of attacks.


Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:25 am
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Liquidedust, your point is clear and well understood.
There was a choice to make:
To apply strict RAW would lead to allow rerolls for spells, shooting (except RBT), chariot impact, and mounts (except breath/stomp/killed rider).
That's RAW, but that really looks like a loophole.
Instead, we decided to stick to the understanding that the intention was just to enhance murderous prowess, rerolling all dice instead of only 1s.

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Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:20 am
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Calisson wrote:
Liquidedust, your point is clear and well understood.
There was a choice to make:
To apply strict RAW would lead to allow rerolls for spells, shooting (except RBT), chariot impact, and mounts (except breath/stomp/killed rider).
That's RAW, but that really looks like a loophole.
Instead, we decided to stick to the understanding that the intention was just to enhance murderous prowess, rerolling all dice instead of only 1s.


In the case of mounts Murderous Prowess is non-transferable to the mounts themselves though, which also would mean that the Strength of Khaine is non-transferable as well (this since Murderous Prowess is non-applicable) which would cover mount attacks and impact hits though.


Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:24 am
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Dragon Lord
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That's correct. Strength of Khaine doesn't transfer to mounts or impact hits.
When we wrote the FAQ we had a choice of going super strict FAQ, and end up with a document that no tournament organizer anywhere will ever use, or to follow the spirit of the game (most visible on the beast attribute ruling) and try and get it accepted by wider community.

We went with the second route.

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Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:08 pm
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I see what you are trying to do with a more RAI kind of approach, and I think it can be applied to situations where the intent is not clear, but I think you really should avoid it when the rules as written is very clear (as in the case of Lore of Beasts). You must be aware that you are not clarifying anything here, you are changing rules.

----
8th ed BRB p.70: "If, during the Charge sub-phase, a unit that includes one or more Frenzied models could declare a charge, then it must do so unless a Ld test is passed."
The Ld roll will happen only if the wish is NOT to charge at all.
As the decision is to charge, there is no test for the DH. As the DH charges out, the rest of the unit cannot charge at all and there is no test either.
----

You miss my point. The question that you are trying to answer is; "If the DH fails a LD check and is forced to leave the unit, will the unit be force to make another LD check?". This can _never_ happen, as the DH does not make a single LD check only for her. The entire unit makes _one_ LD check and either they all are force to charge, or they are not.


Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:25 pm
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With regards to the lore of beasts and bloodwrack shrine, I would argue that in this case, you do benefit from the lore attribute. While the "chariot" is not drawn by a beast, on top of it does sit a bloodwrack medusa. A model whom, on her own, classifies as a monstrous infantry. I'd argue that the shrine benefits from beast lore attribute, but the cauldron does not.

Otherwise, a very nicely written F.A.Q. that clarifies several points of contention. I am happy to play by these rulings.


Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:32 pm
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@ Liquidedust & Dalamar.
MP is non-transferable indeed, but SoK rule, as written, could well be argued to be fully transferable: the only RAW requirement is for the model to have MP. In case of mounts, be it cavalry, monstrous cavalry, chariot or monster, rider and mount make together a single model (RAW p82 & 86: "it is treated in all respects as a single model", RAW p.105: "the whole model..."). And that "model" has MP.
Otherwise I fully agree with Dalamar's answer. If you don't apply MP to impact, breath, mounts, spells and shots, don't apply SoK either.

@ Setomidor & Thraundil
Immunity to Lore of Beasts is a rule interpretation, not really a rule change:
Lore attribute working because of beasts presence is RAW. COB/BwS lacking beasts is RAW. The interpretation is to consider that what matters most is the presence or lack of beast/monster, in consistence with RAW, more than the unit type, which is RAW too but not internally consistent.
By the way, the Medusa is not a beast, it is monstrous infantry, i.e. not in the list of Beasts attribute.

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Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:12 pm
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No, Calisson didn't miss your point Setomidor.
If the death hag *declares* a charge, before frenzy test even comes into effect, the rest of the unit is unable to charge period.

Frenzy test onlg comes into play if you don't want to charge at all, in that case yes, there's a single test for the entire unit (as long as the entire unit is frenzied)

We're also trying to keep the rules for shrine and cauldron the same. They have the same special rule Will of the Gods, it would be strange if they interacted with same things differently.

My personal favorite was:
Shrine can join skirmishers, but cob with hag can't... but as soon as hag is dead, cob can now join skirmishers too.
Unnecessarily convoluted so we decided its best to treat both as mounted characters when joining units.

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Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:16 pm
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Q: How does BS shooting work against the combined unit?
A: Per characters of different troop type in units rules (RB p.99), the Cauldron/Shrine can be hit by BS shooting but can't be hit more than once until every model in the unit has had a single hit allocated to it as well

- - -

Who allocates the hits? Target or Attacker?
If a Gobbo Bolthrower (1 Shot) was shooting at a combined unit (Arguments sake a unit of 15 Witches & a Cauldron) does the target choose the one hit on the unit, OR does the attacker choose the hit on the Cauldron?

Or if a Magic Missile, like the one that's basically a magic bolthrower targets the combined unit, who decided where that first 'hit' is allocated?


Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:30 pm
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Defender allocates, its in the rulebook (p.99)

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Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:53 pm
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Yes, but I'm at work right now so if you have the rulebook with you, your answer should be on page 99.

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Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:57 pm
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Ragian Cain wrote:
Who allocates the hits? Target or Attacker?
If a Gobbo Bolthrower (1 Shot) was shooting at a combined unit (Arguments sake a unit of 15 Witches & a Cauldron) does the target choose the one hit on the unit, OR does the attacker choose the hit on the Cauldron?

Or if a Magic Missile, like the one that's basically a magic bolthrower targets the combined unit, who decided where that first 'hit' is allocated?


Bolt Thrower follows its own rules regarding how and when a character can be hit (see p. 111). Follow those rules for a bolt thrower.

Other shooting attacks follow the rules on p.99 for shooting at combined units (defender allocates).

Just treat the Cauldron/Shrine as any other character in a unit and follow the relevant rules.

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Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:57 pm
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Edit: Aha, I see it now.

"If a Death Hag charges out of a unit Frenzied due to Witchbrew..."

Can be interpreted in two ways;
- The DH charges out of the unit due to Witchbrew
- The unit is Frenzied due to Witchbrew

I read it as the first case, the DH changes out due to Witchbrew, and then the point would have been moot.

I can see that your answer suits the second case better, but this case is not in any way specific to Witchbrew as a CoB leaving a normal WE unit would be in the same situation.


Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:03 pm
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The situation it's supposed to cover is where the DH is in a unit that has Frenzy only because of the presence of Witchbrew (such as a unit of Execs). We might want to re-word the question to make it more clear.

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Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:31 pm
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But how is this different from any normal unit with frenzy, and a character charging out of that unit?


Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:44 pm
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A "dry" DH in a unit of spearmen. DH is frenzied, spearmen are not. DH is liable to frenzy test, not spearmen.
If DH charges out, there is no issue with spearmen.

A "wet" DH in a unit of spearmen. The whole unit is frenzied. The whole unit is liable to Ld test.
If DH charges out, she remains still part of the unit until she actually moves out, i.e. after all charges have been declared.
Hence the question, spearmen are still technically frenzied, do they have to test?
That's an issue specific to witchbrew, which did not arise before the coming of this AB.
The answer, however, is that there is no issue as the spearmen cannot charge anyway.

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Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:59 pm
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Any character in any frenzied unit. The whole unit is liable to the Ld test.
If the character charges out, the unit is still frenzied. Do they have to test?

No, since no unit may declare a charge after a character has charged out.

---
The question is not specific to Witchbrew in any way, the same question and answer can be applied to any frenzied unit in the game.


Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:48 pm
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That's correct, we simply wanted to make sure that witchbrew is explained because unlike other frenzied units, the one with witchbrew hag in it will lose frenzy as soon as hag is out, and questions were raised.

Some answers are obvious. We chose to still give actual answers instead of "it's obvious you dummy"

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Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:29 am
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Regarding the BWS/CoB, what happens in the event of a flank charge?

For instance, I have 10 Executioners joined by a Cauldron. There are two Executioners to each side in the first two ranks, except for the third rank which has one Executioner on each side.

A big old scary White Lion horde flank charges the unit. The Lions have five models in B2B with the Executioners (3 direct contact and 2 corner on); whilst the remainder are not in contact. According to the rules for incomplete ranks, pg.49, you move the models in the event of a flank and 'fight across the gap' in the event of a rear charge. But the BWS can't be moved. Does this mean:

1) The White Lions may not attack the BWS and the BWS may not attack the White Lions
2) The White Lions may attack the BWS and the BWS may attack the White Lions
3) Move the BWS so it is in B2b contact - now the White Lions may not attack the Executioners and have to direct all their eligible attacks against the BWS.


Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:36 am
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My take on it is interpretation 1. The BWS remains in the middle, and thus can't be "reached" from the flank (but it could be from the rear). It can't partake in the flank combat. Other executioners can, able to cross the gap as per BRB rules.

It would be the same if it were a character on a larger base, like a 40x40mm base with only 1 rank. The character would have to use make-way to get into B2B contact with the enemy. But the BWS "Will of the Gods" overrules the "Make Way" rule.

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Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:43 am
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I agree with Daeron. Scenario 1.
Fighting across the gap only applies to attacks from the rear.
Its the same situation as having a mounted character on the opposite side of a 1-deep unit. Unless the character makes way, he can't fight even though the mount's behind is sticking out.

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7th edition army book:
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Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
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8th Edition army book W/D/L:
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Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:10 pm
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