How to deal with the Necrobunker?

[Kaïn]

Well, just to clear it up, a necro-bunker is not a 20-30 strong unit, it's a unit of 10 zombies (+ your necro's so usualy 12-13 models) placed exactly 1 inch behind a large (undead, so unbreakable) infantry unit so they can't be charged in the front. Because the necro's are in the middle of the bunker-unit you can't attack them and because zombo's are so easy to raise you will have a hard time killing them all to get to the necros. This bunker is usually at centre of the undead army, behind the main blocks of infantry, which is not an easy place to get to against VC. I think vorchild is highly underestimating the use of a necro bunker (without a thrall as far as I'm concerned) by assuming he will be able to get to its flank with anything but a flying unit (which will be defeated by CR if the VC player starts raising the zombo unit), as well as underestimating the importance of a special slot when he says a unit of CoK is expendable.

Dr's, a noble on peggie or even a unit of CoK's, as have been suggested, won't do the job, none of them. The necro bunker will usually not be behind 1 unit but will be behind your entire main (unbreakable) battle line. Getting around the flanks is just not going to happen against most VC armies, who keep a very tight line.

"and we're talking about 500 odd points of infantry sitting up against 150 pts of COK at the moment since the infantry is stacked - I'd say I have the spare points to go beat down the flankers at the same time. "

That's rubbish. You won't be able to pin down the unit in front of the bunker because it will be tightly flanked by the other cc blocks. So that's some 360 points bogged down...60 if you look at it realistically, because a necro isn't that much less usefull without LoS.

And spare points against VC? DW units are 50 points, ghouls 40. You'll never outnumber VC in that category.

[Vorchild]

I think vorchild is highly underestimating the use of a necro bunker (without a thrall as far as I'm concerned) by assuming he will be able to get to its flank with anything but a flying unit (which will be defeated by CR if the VC player starts raising the zombo unit), as well as underestimating the importance of a special slot when he says a unit of CoK is expendable.

That very well could be. But to clarify, I'd say that a unit of 5 COK is expendable. Special slots are all well and good but to have one taken up by an expendable unit (like harpies, for example) isn't so bad. Points I find are much more appropriate gauges of efficiency, but that's subjective.

Getting around the flanks is just not going to happen against most VC armies, who keep a very tight line.

See, this statement confuses me for two reasons. First, I've never had difficulties getting around VC lines. Sometimes it takes time, but eventually, it always happens. Secondly, if the line is tight, then the army is more compact, meaning that by definition you have more space to move around to get around and behind unless they refuse flank, if which case you can't get around bother side, but you can get around or pin them in a corner.

That's rubbish. You won't be able to pin down the unit in front of the bunker because it will be tightly flanked by the other cc blocks. So that's some 360 points bogged down...60 if you look at it realistically, because a necro isn't that much less usefull without LoS.

The way I calculated thing is thus: unit of 25 skellies with light armour and full command + unit of 15 zombies with both command upgrades. Total is 380 pts. + any necros inside, so yeah, its still about 400 points bogged down if you can do it (I said 500 because I counted a necro i think - otherwise, I was just wrong). And yeah, with 2 necros in the bunker, its almost 700 pts of the army in those two units if they're kitted out.

And spare points against VC? DW units are 50 points, ghouls 40. You'll never outnumber VC in that category.

You overestimate the uses of dire wolves I think. 5 S3 (S4 on the charge, but even so) attacks never do all that much. Those things can hit a flank and still lose. They're a support unit and nothing more. Sure, if they flank the unit being sent to bog down the bunker, yeah, they're going to make a mess, but I never let them get that far. Shooting them is just so easy and they die in droves. Ghouls are incredibly annoying, for sure - I'll give no doubts there, but with only 5 in the unit, they aren't exactly the most effective unit around.

But think about it - with 3 units of 5 ghouls, 3 units of 5 dogs, 2 necros and the bunker, you've racked up almost 1000 pts depending on upgrades and equipment. Add a vampire and a unit of BKs to the mix and you're up at around 1600 pts, which leaves very little left for anything else. This sort of army configuration is not difficult to penetrate with many Druchii armies.

Its been my experience that 2 or 3 units of Dr and 2 units of RXBmen can generally take out most of the VC support units very quickly and a pair of RBTs only gets the job done that much faster. Get first turn and you can put most of those support units out of the game either by panic for ghouls of by rendering the numbers so small as to be completely ineffective (charging 2 dogs into any unit is just silly in many cases).

That being said, its all my opinion. I rarely ever have difficulties with VC so it may be that I just haven't experienced the killer VC players you guys have.

[Angelofdarkness]

this may not be possible but what about charging the target unit with two units making sure to get one round the back and then challege with one unit sending the necro to the back where he can die from the allocated attacks of the second unit waiting for him?

[Waerik]

this may not be possible but what about charging the target unit with two units making sure to get one round the back and then challege with one unit sending the necro to the back where he can die from the allocated attacks of the second unit waiting for him?

'
You can not charge the necros unit in the front, since it is directly behind a friendly unit...

[Manaurith]

well my sugestion is drastic.

Dragon from behind they don´t hawe any misiles exsept magic misiles so it is a viable option if you are redy to spend the points on this tactic

another option is to get 2 sorceresses to dispell his invocation

another option is brutal. COK with Hydrabanner to smasch through his lines. this is a exspensive tactic but it has worked grate for me somtimes. I once smached through 25 skeletons in one charge with this method but it is risky and you need some units behind ready to utilise the gap in the lines that will forme VC need some time to fix it and now you got your most dangerous unit behind his lines.

and the final tactic is to ignore the necro and pick of the rest of his army

I don´t exspect this to help bit it is some sugestions.

[Linda lobsta defenda]

I am with vorchild in this, most VC armies are slow in comparison to a druchii army, and if they necrobunker then they occupy such a small part of the battlefield that getting around with something fast and hitty isnt all that hard specially as VC supporting units are made out of paper when faced with the druchii countermeasures for that (repeaters, peggie noble) and a frontal charge by a unit of cold ones will in all likelyhood hold up the main battleline and if they bring their units into flanking then they practically broken up their battle line and then the bunker is fare game for other units to go in. or my fav tactic is to break them up with witches backed by the cauldron.

[Joey_boy]

Okey to help most of you understand how this will work and what type of list you'll be facing.
This is a typical necrobunker army. It's not maxed out but it's what I'd take to a GT if I wanted to be sure to qualify from the heats. you can dropp 5 skellies form each unit aswell as the BK barding if you want to add more stuff aswell.

Heros
1 Strigoi Vampire Count, lvl2, Iron Sinews, Summon Ghouls, Curse of the Revenant. 340 Pts

1 Necromancer, lvl2, Black Periapt, Dispel Scroll. 140 Pts

1 Necromancer, lvl2, Book of Arkhan, Dispel Scroll. 150 Pts

1 Necromancer, lvl2, Power Familiar. 150 Pts

Core
20 Skeleton Warriors, la, sh, Full command. 225 Pts

20 Skeleton Warriors, la, sh, Full command. 225 Pts

12 Zombies, Standard. 82 Pts

5 Dire Wolves. 50 Pts

5 Dire Wolves. 50 Pts

5 Dire Wolves. 50 Pts

6 Ghouls. 48 Pts

6 Ghouls. 48 Pts

Special
6 Black Knights, Barding, Musician. 158 Pts

6 Black Knights, Barding, Musician. 158 Pts

3 Fell Bats. 60 Pts

3 Fell Bats. 60 Pts

Army Stats
Casting Pool: 11
Dispel Pool: 7 + 2 scrolls
Models in Army: 101
Total Army Cost: 1994


Okey now for deployment...
Your facing divirting DW units, Ghoul rearguards, a turn 1 summon ghouls to suport the Bats gooing for a turn2 charge against the RBT's. Then there is the BK units thretening you. And lets not forget about 4 invocations per turn from the 11-12PD this is in addition to any Vanhel or hellishV that they might have, and you can be sure that the first two invocations will goo to boosting the bunker up in strength. After that how will you deal with 4 potential new zombie units poping up everyturn infront of your units angeling them away from there targets? How do you deal with 3 rais atempts behind the unit that has angaged the skellies and the book aswell as(probably) another dice vanhells? Just saying that you should flank them is not all that easy. This is one of the best VC tactics out there and is not very easy to counter. Heck I'v never played a game with VC and I have no doubt that I could qualify with this list at a GT, it's that good.

-----------DW-----FB-------DW-------FB----DW------------
-----------BK--------------SWSW-----------BK--------------
---------------------G's------ZB-------G's-------------------

/Johan R

[Vorchild]

OK, so there's nothing too too sick about that list. Personally, I think 3 fell bats aren't going to do all that much and can be eliminated quickly by DR. Similarly, the wolves can be eliminated by RXB fire and for time they have remaining, the RBTs if you have any can pick off a few knights, making one of those units useless. With that deployment, the ghouls are something you don't have to worry about as yet. Raising will be a pain with all those dice, but that's always the case. First turn will make a real difference with that kind of army if only because shooting will have a real impact. If you have chariots, they can finish off those knights fairly easily after a couple turns of shooting or even without any (with only 2 for combat res, its not that hard to see them losing combat). So, I can't see the support units staying around all that long against a balanced force. Still leaves you with the problem of the ghouls (somewhat) and the magic and the bunker, and most importantly that count. Still, even with all the raising, I'm thinking you'll take very few casualties in taking out the support units so you should be able to pin the front unit or get around to the bunker. After all, the further up it goes, the more vulnerable it becomes.

You could also simply strip away the support units and then just sit back and watch as they crawl forward and you simply pick off the new units coming up. Should win you the game in the end.

That's my theoretical synopsis anyways, fairly useless as it is. All that being said though, I think I'm going to go find someone willing to play that list against me - it intrigues me.

[Haplo]

VC has the best support units in the game, and shooting really isn't that effective against skirmishers and possibly in cover too. 5 dark riders charging a unit of 6 ghouls is no way a sure win! A noble on dark steed or pegasus will also go down to ghouls because of their fear and toughness.

[Tenebrae]

Dragon from behind they don´t hawe any misiles exsept magic misiles so it is a viable option if you are redy to spend the points on this tactic

I repeat : 1000 points, not 2000. So no dragons.

[Tege]

Against massed infantry, flamethowers(read hydras/dragons) work wonders. put a hydra in the side(out of sight) of the guard unit, breath away. next round charge it with something hitty in front(witches for example) and the hydra in the side, that will kill alot. And in a thousand points game if he has a bunker like that, don't come saying that wont die in round two or three, it's just not enough points. also, invest in lots of sorceresses and you'll dispel the worst spells, and he'll be focusing on casting when building the list, so dark horror, soulstealer and such also makes abig pain in the ass. RXB-men kill his suport, no problem.

Alternatively you could just make your army with a cheap noble with rXb and little, to none magic items, and lots of lots of warriorsa with rXb andv shield. maybe some spice(RBT, cok, maybe witches?) too, but still. you'll shoot his suport and new zombie/skeleton units to bits as the show up. at the end he ends up killing nothing and you will kill quite a bit, minor victory

[Dyvim tvar]

Chariots are definitely the way to go here, especially in a 1000 point battle. They are relatively cheap and hit very hard, and you don't have to worry about any nasty Lord-level vamps that could pop them easily. Witch Elves would also be very useful in chewing through the first level unit to get to the second.

[Vorchild]

VC has the best support units in the game, and shooting really isn't that effective against skirmishers and possibly in cover too. 5 dark riders charging a unit of 6 ghouls is no way a sure win! A noble on dark steed or pegasus will also go down to ghouls because of their fear and toughness.

Noble on Peg vs 6 ghouls: Noble passes fear check and charges in from 20" out and the ghouls stay (silly prospect really). Noble has 3 attacks at S6 with a lance. 2 hit and say 2 wound. Pegasus has 2 attacks at S5 of which one hits and lets be conservative and say the it doesn't wound. 2 ghouls come back, all attacks at the pegasus. 4 attacks of which 2 hit and with poison possibilities lets say 1 wounds. Noble wins by 1 and the ghouls are likely to break unless they're close to the general.

Noble on steed vs 6 ghouls: noble passes fear check and charges in from 18" out and the ghouls stay. Same as before, the noble strikes 2 kills and the mount none. 1 ghoul attacks back and will do squat against the armour of the noble (2+ save). Ghouls still lose by 1.

5 DR charging into ghouls. Riders pass fear check and charge in from 18" and the ghouls stay. 5 attacks, 1.7 wounds from the riders and an extra 0.8 wounds from the horses. Be conservative and say they only take down 2. 4 ghouls back with 4 hits and 2 unsaved wounds including poison (or so). Ghouls still lose by 1.

So, no, you're not going to massacre the things, but you should win or at least tie - especially when you soften them up first with a little shooting. It might not have great odds, but its got better return than shooting at zombies. RBT will normally score one, maybe 2 depending on how lucky you are, which might end up being a panic test - which is very valuable.

[Ehakir]

Take much DR's, Chariots to clean your way of ghouls (as well those who come at your back), crossbowmen to shoot the other 'crap' around the army, and RBT's (4) to shoot the bunker down (preferably placing them on a hill). Then you could take a manticore and/or dragon as well.

[Linda lobsta defenda]

I really dont see what is so impossible about that list. the support is fragile and rather easily taken care off. yes ghouls are harder but far from impossible.

the raising of units you say, but that is something we all expect in VC so isnt very unique to the bunker. and so what if they raise a few units here and there. Most of them will go down again fast and it isnt something i worry about until the main line gets closer so they can help out. if the count player sends his cavarly foreward it gets mobbed and killed in short order. VC heavy cavalry isnt all that though compared to the brets we are all used to facing. if he goes for lots of summoning then his main battleline wont arrive for many turns, if he danses them foreward them we are not facing all that much in summoning.

[Phlash]

Hey guys, I'm a VC player, and I just noticed this topic, and thought I might add me 2 cents. Forgive me, if I might be a bit longwinded.

First, some of you brought up the question of where the necro should live. He could roam the world, be his own master and tied to no unit. But the I-sees-you targeting rule of 7ed renders such specimen a dying breed. The way I see it, there are Skels, Zombies, DW, GG and BKs ready to house him. But the GG and the BK are really out, as that would conflict with their normal duties. DWs are an obvious fit for a mounted necro, but then the man would drag down the unit. And several members have already boastet of the ease with which they kill DWs. Combine this with the fact that the unit NEEDS to be 5+ in size for lookoutsir, and the DWs are out. This only leave Skels and Zombies.

Now, we have also heard, from several sources, that a suicide charge from DR/Nobles/COK easily can dispatch a necro, and even though these sources are Dark elves, I believe it wise to take the statement at face value.
So, the only effective way, it appears to me, to keep a necro in the undead, rather than the dead, is to prevent the enemy from getting close enough to touch him. Enter the necrobunker.

But won't this affect his spells, I hear you ask? And no, not really. Only one spell need LOS, and if he should get that he could stand in the wall unit until a threat gets close enough.

Now, several suggestions have been made as for how to deal with the bunker.
1) Ignore it, and hope that it ignores you.
2) Beat it down by magic, without any magehunting.
3) Break the wall with COK
4) Break the bunker with a dragon in the rear
5) Break the wall with COCs

1) Try it. Please.
2) You want to beat the undead in a duel of pure magics?
3) One of the other posters did some math on this. The COK will hit, then stick. Given time and isolation, they will get though eventually. But don't bet on it. Oh, and this will immobilise the bunker. Could be viable, if you play a hang back and shooty list.
4) The bunker will not stop a dragon. The question is, though, whether or not the dragon can afford to ignore the things that WILL stop a dragon.
5) Ah, finally an interesting option. Yes, two COCs would be able to break down the front wall. But why would the VC let two of them charge him? He could delay one of them with DWs, he could raise zombie speedbumps, and let's not forget the wolfthrall.

Some of the posters mentioned that the front wall could be reinforced with a vamp. This is true, and common. But those that tried to calculate how many points went into the bunker seemed to think that said vamp was surgically attached to his unit. And yes, if he were, then the bunker would tie up a lot of points for no benefit. But it will be rare to find a vampire with M less than 7" and more likely 8", now that everybody will be mounted. Such a creature is indeed likely to charge out of his unit if you give him an opening.

I don't really know the druchii, and how you like to fight, but I do find it odd that noone has mentioned the RoH yet? This small item could be right up there with the casket in the PitA contest. Put it on a noble or assasin, and you would tend to focus the attention of you opponent. Of course, then he would be standing in ghoul territory, and the boys do tend to dislike outsiders, but still.

--Phlash

[Vorchild]

And yes, if he were, then the bunker would tie up a lot of points for no benefit. But it will be rare to find a vampire with M less than 7" and more likely 8", now that everybody will be mounted. Such a creature is indeed likely to charge out of his unit if you give him an opening.

That would have to be one hell of an opening to entice the army general to go out on his own likely to get charged and possibly destroyed following that move, or else get shot.

I don't really know the druchii, and how you like to fight, but I do find it odd that no one has mentioned the RoH yet?

If you can get that close to the necrobunker to make proper use of it, then you should normally be able to take things one step further to hit th necrobunker. That being said, there are a bunch of things you can use to hit the wall that have a character in there with it. But for sure, its definitely something to consider.

[Phlash]

And yes, if he were, then the bunker would tie up a lot of points for no benefit. But it will be rare to find a vampire with M less than 7" and more likely 8", now that everybody will be mounted. Such a creature is indeed likely to charge out of his unit if you give him an opening.

That would have to be one hell of an opening to entice the army general to go out on his own likely to get charged and possibly destroyed following that move, or else get shot.

I might have been unclear, I was talking about a vampire thrall there. And they cannot be generals. The general will be in the bunker i sub 2k games. And if the wall unit contains a count or lord, there WILL be an easier way into the bunker, than through him.

I don't really know the druchii, and how you like to fight, but I do find it odd that no one has mentioned the RoH yet?

If you can get that close to the necrobunker to make proper use of it, then you should normally be able to take things one step further to hit th necrobunker. That being said, there are a bunch of things you can use to hit the wall that have a character in there with it. But for sure, its definitely something to consider.

Of course. The RoH just seems made for this kind of thing, because you KNOW that the necros aint going nowhere.

[Phlash]

I just thought of another way to deal with the bunker. I have never seen anyone try this against me deliberately, so it might not be so easy to pull off. But you guys being the masters of MSU, should be able to tell me if it is feasable.

The trick is to use the pursuit rules. If you play sub-2k games, the general WILL be in the bunker, and he WILL be a necro. So that means that the bunker has a communal LD of 7. Just hit the bunker or perhaps the wall in the flank with some DRs or shades, and miff your attacks. I know this takes some doing against zombies, but still, try to do it for Naggaroth

If he pursues, the bunker will be bust open, and you would still have 3d6 against his 2d6 move. If he restrains, he will have to test on his good and righteous LD 7, or pursue anyhow. And if he actually remains, the DRs will rally next turn, and nothing will be lost.

This, of course, means that even if the bunker is broken, he will still have a full turn to do damage control, but hey, if you make the unit pursue in odd angles, he will have to make some fancy turns for the bunker to be restored.

What do you think?

--Phlash

[Darkweaver]

The trick is to use the pursuit rules. If you play sub-2k games, the general WILL be in the bunker, and he WILL be a necro. So that means that the bunker has a communal LD of 7.

Anything around 2k a VC general is usaully a count, and "IF" he is in the bunker, the LD would be 9.

[Getwisteerd]

That won't work as they're immune to psychology and won't have to test to restrain. But a beastmaster on a pegasus with RoH will probably be nice against so many casters in one spot. He will need a bodyguard though

[Dyvim tvar]

That won't work as they're immune to psychology and won't have to test to restrain.

I don't believe that's correct. Immune to Psych has no interaction with testing to restrain -- that's no psychology of any sort.

That being said, I don't think it's a good idea to rely on pursuit to pull the bunker out of position. There's a greater than 50% chance of passing a leadership test on a 7 and your scenario relies on some other enlikely conditions.

I still think a combined charge with 2 chariots is the way to go. You mayt need to clear out some screening troops, such as dire wolves, but Dark Riders and shooting should generally be up to the task.

[Mc warhammer]

Err, call me stupid but I've never heard the term neccrobunker berfore... Could someone please explain? I'm sure I've come accross it before, just didn't know the term...

Sean

It is a tactic invented by ME where all necromancers are put in one zombie unit which has one or two units of skelletons directly in front of them, therefore they are untouchable unless the front unit is killed, and if its a good list the front unit is unlikely to even be in combat unless it wants to be.

[Murmandamus]

To a zobies in lot of numbers ther e is a simple solution. First this is beloved brides of khaine - witch elves. When they enter combat the limbs of zombies fly in all direction and enemy crumbles in seconds so it could be easy to break through fromnt regiment quickly to avoid flankers and keep them at bay by your suppoort. Then pegasi lord with lifetaker and ring of hotek. Once in range of this main regiment with 3 necro he won't get away of range. (i checkjed no mv unit escapes range of ROH)

But once witches gets to necro regiment enemy is screwed.(i prefer also to give them witchbrew for additional bonus it really helps against high numbers) Remember 12 witches witch champion mewans 3x6+1=19 poisoned attacks.

[Dyvim tvar]

Witches are good against undead in general, but might not be great against the Necrobunker tactic described. The problem the witches could have is the unit in front of the Necrobunker -- a unit that will normally have a vampire in it.

If you are sending in witch elves, you really need to be sure you get the charge. Stop Van Hel's Danse Mcabre at all costs. And try to hit that front unit with something else at the same time the witches go in. A chariot is great. Or Dark Riders in the flank.