Is Dark Magic "really" useful anymore?

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Theblahmaster
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Is Dark Magic "really" useful anymore?

Post by Theblahmaster »

So, I have played a couple of games now under the new edition with my dark elves, and it has come to my attention that all the lores in the main core rulebook have gotten better (at least IMHO). In 6th ed. I pretty much made use of only the dark lore as it was far superior to both shawdow and death for my purposes. However, I have recently been using death and have found that it is much more useful than dark magic. Has anyone else come upon this? I simply have found dark magic to be underpowered and underwhelming. Thoughs, suggestions, ideas?
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Post by Crazy_elf_lady »

I rarely run magic in my lists, but I do know what you're talking about. Both death and shadow are definitely much more powerful than they used to be. I'm really not sure what I'd choose. Dominion is still nice, as is word of pain, and black horror is always a rank/file destroyer. However it does feel as if the other lores are better at the moment.

That being said, with my 1 lvl1 caster I usually default to chillwind over the other spells, lol.
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Post by Druchiishootlord »

Dark Magic is one of the best lores in the game. it gives you an aspect that neither the shadow nor death lore provide. death provides direct damage but no support while shadow provides support and no direct damage, or relatively none in both cases. Dark Lore gives you a mixture of the two. there are even spells that gives you a mixture of the two say in Chillwind and Black Horror.

Dark Elf Magic is seriously some scary stuff. Black Horror is probably one of the most feared spells around as most high S models aren't ItP and outside of the characters only real exception is khorne or slaanesh knights of chaos.

Dominion is right up there...i mean even if it is short ranged once you're in range of the spell you're in short range of the RxB and that's when things start really getting sticky for hte opponent. I hear more growns when a DE player with even decent magic rolls dominion or black horror than i do with any other spell in the game.

those to me are probably two of the most useful in my area. used with the right combos for the army you're playing Dark Magic can be very devastating.
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Post by Dyvim tvar »

I do agree with you that Death is now a great lore. But Dark is still good. I'm not a big fan of Shadow.

Whether I go for Dark or Death depends on who I am fighting. I prefer Dark magic against shooty opponents since there are 3 spells that can shut down shooting (Chillwind, Word of Pain and Dominion). I also take Dark with a level 4 against opponents who are immune to psychology since Doom and Darkness! and Shades of Death (or is it Walking Death? I get confuesed) are less useful against those types of opponents.
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Post by Keularth »

I personally really like Chillwind because of its blocking of shooting. Having a lone sorceress tie up a huge unit of archers for almost the entire battle extremely fun.

Opponent: Hehe, 30 thunderers on a hill, try getting your COKs near that

You: *cast chillwind, kill one guy*

Opponent: Haha, only one guy, oh wait...

You: :twisted:
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Post by Balthamael »

I'm a fan of both Death and Dark Magic. Both lores have two magic missiles and can potentially cause some quite decent damage. However, I usually tend to use Dark Magic for it's ability to control movement/shooting of my opponents army. As we all know, the Druchii excels when they can control the movement phase and Dark Magic spells help doing just that.
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Post by Agifem »

Even though Death and Shadow have improved, I still favor Dark magic. We already have plenty of ranged fire, pretty effective. Shadow magic is a little too unreliable to me, to specialized in a way. Dark is nice, but i generaly don't need more damage dealers. I think it's essential to control the battlefield rather than kill stuff.

I generally play magic heavy. This week-end i'll be playing my first 2000 points with a high sorceress and a level 2. I'll take Dark on the level 4, but Death on the level 2, because she doesn't seem powerful to me enough to use dark magic efficiently in a large scale battle.
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Post by Rizzen »

I also favor Dark Magic, all the spells are usefull and effective. Dark Magic has a nice variety and it supports our army the best. Second is Death, more for direct damage and higher toughness armies. Although Shadow can be a good lore, I will only take it for a lvl 4 Sorcerous, some spells are just not worth it. ( eg steed of shadows, I rarely have a char to steed )

Anyway Dark Magic rocks!
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Post by Ninja economist »

I always take Death Magic. This though due to the fact that I very seldom take anything more than scroll carriers. And if you've only got lvl 1 or lvl 2 sorceresses it is much more reliable with Death magic's first magic missile.

If I am bringing a lvl 4 sorceress however, I like to take Dark or Shadow magic (Pit of Shades dammit!).
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Post by Harabec »

Have never been a fan of shadow myself, even now. Death is a decent lore, definetly better in 7th, but I still prefer Dark magic. IMO Dark is one of the best lores in the game, and although they sometimes seem a bit short ranged or higher casting costed, I have never been failed when I take it.

Every spell can really benefit our army, and even the damaging spells have nice side benefits (chillwind, soutlstealer). As mentioned, in my experience, black horro is one of the most feared spells out there. It really on rivalled in my areas by warp lightning (becuase they always have it and it cheap to cast)
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Post by Hawk »

I am absolutely not a fan of the shadow lore, but both death and shadow are quiet nice. Although dark needs you to get very close to the enemy, it still packs a good punch. And chillwind as basic, wow!
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Post by Venkh »

The effects of Dark magic are nice but the range is a real kicker. In order to have an effective magic phase you need to be using all of your power dice every turn, drawing out those dispel scrolls and forcing your opponent to make tough choices.

The range of dark magic means that getting all of those spells in on turn 1 is a real challenge. You need to get your sorceress close to the enemy without exposing them to danger, a really tough task. Add to this the higher than average casting values and you hand your opponent an easy first turn. If you fail to pressure your opponent in early turns he will have his scrolls intact in turn 3+ and will nullify your magic in the vital phases of the game.

Some of the dark spells are very situational:

Chillwind - A good default spell but the extra effect only affects missile units
Doombolt - Not bad but 18" range is unimpressive
Word of Pain - A great spell some of the time, probably better against missile units than melee units where its effects are pretty mariginal (usually only -1 to hit)
Soul Stealer - Brilliant - If you can only get close enough, extremely risky and almost never cast in turn one or two.
Dominion - High casting value and stupidly short range, another spell unlikely to be cast in turn 1.
Black Horror - Lovely effect rolling over strength is easy verses dwarf warriors, shame about the poor range and extremely high casting value.

For these reasons i dont take dark magic.

The shadow lore has 2 excellent spells (pit amd Lurker). Unfortunately they have high casting values so getting both off in a single turn can be tricky. Shadow also has a couple of terrible spells for dark elves (crown and steed)

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The death lore has an excellent default magic missile, a bigger magic missile and an excellent spell for making units run away. These all have excellent range and low casting values. Your opponent will be hit by these on turn one and will need to stop them or take heavy losses.

I vote for death. A blunt instrument, but who cares about that when the enemy dead are lying all over the field of battle.
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

Dark Magic was always underpowered. It had pretty good spells, but had two key weaknesses:

1) Very short range on spells.

2) The casting values for the spells were artificially boosted to factor in the Sorceress' +1 to cast, which negated the whole point of having a +1 to cast in the first place...

7th Edition only makes the latter issue even worse. Death magic is the way to go until our new book is released...
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Post by Gladeius »

I found that if you want ok spells no matter what, use lore of Death.
Dark Magic is good if you get doombolt, chillwind, or Black Horror.
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Post by Raneth »

I agree that its limited range mars the efficiency of Dark Magic, but there are many ways of deploying her really fast available to us (DS, DP, CODS) so this hepls quite a bit. If you have a Lv4, you'll probably have some serious decent-range spells to make up for it so I'd always choose it for my HS.

For Sorcs, sometimes Dark for def Chillwind or Death for being better overall (the extremes here are 'softer'. spells are useful more often whereas with Dark you can easily get a really situational spell... not good when you can pick only 2)
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Post by Drek »

I use Death exclusively now. There isn't a bad spell on the list. However, I haven't faced undead in 7th. I run 2 lvl 2's and am almost always throwing 3 dice on 2 spells a turn, usually getting them off and they're almost always useful.

Death for me.

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Post by Dyvim tvar »

Death magic isn't as poor a choice against Undead as it used to be. Doom and Darkness! gets neutered, but Walking Death still useful in a defensive capacity. Throw it on a unit of infantry and they don't have to worry about the effects of fear.

Against Tomb Kings I would probably go with Dark Magic, since they tend to have some shooting capability. But against Vampire Counts go Death for better damage-dealing, even though Doom And Darkness! gets wasted.
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Post by Crazy_elf_lady »

Dark magic is definitely good against TKs, but it's so hard to resist taking shadow simply for the pit.

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Post by Dancingpigeon »

I hardly think short range should be a reason for completely discounting the Dark lore completely- we are Elves after all, with access to the second fastest non-flying mount in the game (Curse you Mounted Daemonettes *Shakes Fist*) for our level 2's, and 2 different flying mounts for our Lords.

Now, I'll just say this straight off- I am a big fan of Death, so don't get me wrong, because if you want to kill things its definately the lore to take, not to mention it now has some great support spells (Doom and Darkness).

Magic, IMO, is a tricky thing, because unlike shooting, the enemy can prevent you from using your spells. Unless you go with A LOT of magic you can't rely upon it to "earn" its points worth, and so I've been finding myself moving more and more towards Dark because the utlitiy of denying your opponent aspects of their army is unique and extremely powerful.

However, it does depend upon the army you face. Chillwind can absolutely rock when combined with a Repeater Crossbow wielding unit of Warriors. Handgunners, Skinks and Skirmishers all across the Old World fear this spell- add to this Dominion and Word of Pain and you now have 3 spells you can roll up that can completely neutralise an entire enemy units shooting.

Dominion and word of pain are also great against enemy elite infantry because it either means we have slowed that unit down for an entire turn, giving us more time to surroud the unit, or preventing them from turning to face something in their rear (Dragon/Manti springs to mind), or preventing them from reinforcing a unit we've already hit but have failed to break.

Word of Pain is GREAT for us, because it has such great synergy with our natural Elven WS. It prevents dangerous, elite infantry from hitting us in the first place (By making them hit on 5's) and then best of all, should we make a mistake, or get trapped and come into range of enemy missile fire (I fear Move and Fire infantry weapons- Wood Elves I'm looking at you >.<) we can effectively neuter the unit completely by making their shooting useless.

Even if we can't cast this on all the enemy ranged units, simply getting one of those spells off on the turn before a charge can be the different between you breaking through a unit or bouncing off a unit due to taking to many casualties.

Yes, its great when you roll 3 and 5 for your Death spells, but you'll rarely get anything gamewinning from casting 2 magic missiles a turn and the only spell that I think is REALLY great is Doom and Darkness. Walking Death and Soul Steal do little for me... Soul Steal can be nice for "sniping" hero level characters, but other then its usually only cast because I have it and nothing else.

People say Warhammer is won in the movement phase- Dark's utility in 3/6 of its spells mean I can stop the things that usually hamper my unit movement (that is to say, ranged units).

Oh, and all of what I'm saying mainly applies to sub-2000pts, i.e. no Lord choice. I don't think I'd ever take Death with a lvl 4 Sorceress- and Shadow becomes a lot more useable when you have 5 spells and are versing Dwarves, Lizzies or Undead. One thing I like doing is Unseen Lurkering my Manticore Sorceress 40" across the board, usually into the rear of a unit that has just been charged by a Chariot or something.

Maybe its just me, but I rarely have a problem with casting Dark spells. Like any lore (at least with a lvl 2 w/ Darkstar cloak), I throw 2 dice at Chillwind and 3 the other spell... unless I really need Chillwind to go off. With 2 lvl 2's, it will depend on what spells each of them received. Usually 2 Chillwinds (or 1 Chillwind and a Doombolt) and then a utility spell, not necessarily in that order. 2 Dice each Chillwind + Doombolt, 3 dice on a utility. I find that have a decent chance of getting a spell of is better then throwing a dice away and getting nothing for your trouble... unless of course I have nothing else to do with that dice. e.g. (2 lvl 2's, one with Chillwind & Dominion, the other with Chillwind, Doombolt and any of the spells 3-6) Throw 3 Dice at Dominion (2 left in the pool of dice, 2 Dice with the other caster), 3 Dice at your other utility if your in range, and then throw a dice at Chillwind (in any order).
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Post by Dyvim tvar »

Very nice summary, Dancing Pigeon. I agree that range is not a major drawback to the Dark Lore. I just stick my High Sorceress on a Pegasus and it's never an issue.

I have to take issue with you on one point -- I think Walking Death is a great spell. One of the best things about it is that it can upgrade a fear-causing unit to terror. No need for a hydra when a cold-one chariot will do!
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Post by Dancingpigeon »

Ah, I thought someone might disagree with my opinions on Walking Death- it can be a very useful spell, and my opinion of it seemingly goes against what I just said about utility spells. However, I would rank the ability to give Fear to a unit for defensive purposes over that of giving a Chariot (or CoK's) Terror. To me, Terror is always disappointing. I think it mainly has something to do with having to be within 6" of a unit in order for it to accomplish anything. Obviously its nice if a unit next to the one you've just charged breaks, but this is a very situational ability.

^EDIT: Forgot to add here, that what I meant here was that it doesn't do anything useful for you against the unit you've charged as they become ItP.

The Hydra is the only Terror causer I have found to actually have Terror add to its effectiveness due to the breath weapon. Having said that, I've never played with a Dragon.

Perhaps it's my meta (Lots of Dwarves and Lizzies), perhaps its simply bad luck- I'll have to give it a try more often.

Anyways, back to the point- I find Walking Death less useful in Death, because there are no spells to compliment it within the lore. The dream roll is a lvl 2 rolling 3 and 5 for their spells. A level 4 only *really* gains Hand of Death to add to its ability to route a unit. This is why, althought I'm not a large fan of Walking Death, I am a fan of Shades of Death (The shadow one, at least I think thats its name- I'm at work so I can't double check). This is mainly because I think it fits in the lore a lot better.

Anyways, I'm getting very round-a-bout now (I'm probably high on caffeine), but I prefer my Lvl 4 to be utility and my lvl 2's to be utility w/ a bit of killy or totally killy. If I take Death, I want to be able to PewPewLaz0rs as much as possible :).

My magic heavy setup probably looks something like Lvl 4 w/ Shadow/Dark (Depending on opponents- funnily enough armies with lots of fear usually have small I so Shadow is great against them, anything that lots of shooty or I'm not too sure on, I will usually go Dark).

Sidenote: I'm not sure whats better against Brets yet, any ideas?

Then my lvl 2's either take Death or Dark, depending on what the opponent is. I've found it to be pretty effective as far as magic setups go, but I haven't played a dragon so I can't compare it to that option yet.
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

DancingPigeon wrote:Anyways, back to the point- I find Walking Death less useful in Death, because there are no spells to compliment it within the lore.


Don't you think Doom & Darkness compliments it?
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Post by Svart »

Am I the only one here who thinks that the new Shadow Lore is great? ;) Pit of shades! Goodbye Anvil Runelord, goodbye Treeman... and don't forget the Invisible Lurker!
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

Svart wrote:Am I the only one here who thinks that the new Shadow Lore is great? ;) Pit of shades! Goodbye Anvil Runelord, goodbye Treeman... and don't forget the Invisible Lurker!


I think the biggest drawback to Shadow Lore is that the default spell is really bad compared to most lores. That alone makes me unwilling to take it unless on a High Sorceress.
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Post by Hidaus morbusa »

Well, "Steed of Shadows" saved my 4th lvl general in my Cult several times last year...but that was before the release of 7th edition. Most people will field their characters mounted today I think, and the spell is not working then (US 2+).

Can't figure out how to use spell #3 (The Crown of Tanzania?) either...

Bottomline; Shadow has become worse in my book, though Pit of Shades is horrible (read: good!) now!
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