MSE

[Lord adrianus]

I often hear about an MSE army but what is it? Is it the same as MSU or something else?

p.s. I hope this belongs in the druchii discussion forum

[Celius]

MSE stands for Many Small Elites, the concept is similar, but with elite units. I don't know the workings though, orthodox armies all the way for me. Maybe somebody else can explain the workings, or direct you to a discussion about it.

[Rork]

http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=42557

Check through some of the Hall of Fame threads on MSU, MSE is a variant of that.

Please try to read some of these threads first, eh? We do sticky things to make it easier for you...

(Not just for our own personal amusement )

[Lord adrianus]

I actually did read almost all the threads in the Hall of Fame. I just seem to have missed the MSE piece. Thanks for clearing it up for me. @Rork This topic can be locked

[Evil on the loose]

Hehe, I did that too, finding nothing specific about MSE! Didnt' have the nerve to ask though for the fear of flaming!

Could somebody please make clear what the tactical differences are between MSE and MSU?

[Denthor]

MSU relies on a a lot of units, small and each with very specific or very adaptable role. MSU usally relies on manouvrability and using units in tandem although you probably know that. The diffrenece is the units you take by taking, lets say, multiple small units of RxB elves and spearelves to act as screens redirecters etc your army will probably be MSU

MSE relies many units but units that are more elite. For example corsairs and DR for core, instead of spear men for example, small blocks of executioners and witch elves for special mengils flayers etc. But the whole idea of MSE is to use the abilities of more elite troops to counter act the numbers you lose by not taking a 'pure' MSU style army.

The diffrencs as i see are small but they are there.

P.S i hope this made sense to some else but me

[Khel]

or read the FAQ
Alywas look here before asking questions like that...I learn't that the hard way...through slow...painful...torture...

[Limenix]

M.S.E. and M.S.U. are often talked about on this forum but i always fail to see the reason to field this.

Dark elves are too expensive and too fragile to apply this tactics in my opinion.
Orc , Brets and others can do this much,much better.

[Druchii77]

You would be surprised at how effective those types of list are when used correctly. We are expensive and fragile and that is why those lists work. They make the most out of the smallest usage of points. They ascribe to the adage of "Why take extra ranks of execs or witches if only the first rank will attack." Thus, no big blocks.
If played incorrectly you will lose badly. Earlier in my career I tried MSU with little experience and I lost every time and horribly. Now that I have been playing for 4 years, it is much easier to work with.

[Limenix]

This is how i see this.

1)Small units will get paniced easily by missile fire.
With our lousy armour save , even Bret peasant bowmen can
make exeqs flee.

2)Too many units makes manouvering very difficult.
It will be very rare to have room to bait and flee and then counter-charge.

3)10-12 whatever Druchii infantry can't brake nothing.

4)It's unreal to believe that an opponent will let you flank-charge his unit with something dangerous.He will turn and face you head on.I'd like to see even 12 Witch elves brake 20 orcs head on.

5) M5 is good but Vs Brets or Empire or any Cav army , the small units will get creamed.

This is my opinion on this.
Druchii must hit very hard , brake the enemy and then overun him.
Our small units just don't have the punch for this.
I would really love to play my "normal" Dark elf army Vs such a M.S.U. army.

[Druchii77]

You miss the point. The object of MSU is not to pair one of our units against one of their's. If so, you will lose. You have more units than your opponent, so they can face the biggest threat, but because you have more units, when they face that threat, they will often time HAVE to expose their flank or rear to a lesser threat. Thus, one unit of 10-12 Druchii won't win, but two or more units of 10-12 ganging up on one unit will.

You will actually be surprised with how easy it is to maneuver units when they don't have an excess of ranks behind them. I play and MSE style list with 12 different moveable units and I do just fine and often get combo charges. You forget that you aren't just fielding infantry units. There are chariots, fast cav, hydras, RBT, CoK, flyers and scouts too.

With regards to armies with an excess of cavalry, we have a beautiful solution. Dark riders. These are perhaps the most annoying unit in the game of Warhammer. They are core fast cavalry with the ability to taking shooting, but if not, you can field a unit for under 100 pts. They can flee and then rally and then move. I use three units in my MSE army, and they always cover the fast moving units in the army. They allow you to dictate your opponent's movement quite well.

Also, one last word for this post, MSU/MSE build on the fact that the army doesn't depend on any one unit. There is no hugely expensive unit that wins the game. EVERYTHING is expendable. You should be able to lose any unit in your army and still play well when using an MSU/MSE army. In my MSE army, nothing costs more than 200 pts except for a high sorceress on a dark pegasus. That way, if I lose a unit, it isn't devastating. You really should read some of the articles in the tactics hall of fame. The clearly point out the issues.