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Having Trouble with Nasty Ogre List..Help 
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Executioner

Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:45 pm
Posts: 166
So I play against a very very good Ogre player, whose been to GT's etc. This is his list. Usually when I play against him. His Tyrant is in with unit of bulls or iron guts and his bsb is in another. He sets up in a straight line with his butcher behind the lines on the first turn. Sometimes he starts them off in a unit as well.
I can never beat him...Need help. His tyrant gets into hand to hand and I am pretty much F**ked cause he is great at slamming into other units etc.

Tyrant
Mawseeker
JadeLion
Wyrdstone necklace
Heavy Armor
Great Weapon

Bruiser
BSB
Look out Gnob

Butcher
Scroll
Bang Stick

Butcher
Scroll

3X Bulls
3X Bulls

3x Ironguts Banner

3x Ironguts
3x Ironguts
3x Ironguts

20x Gnoblars
8x Trappers

Scraplauncha
Scraplauncha

I don't play over the top lists like 4 RBT or anything like that. What I do play is a theme list ran by 3 sisters..A highborn Female, A Witch Elf Assassin and a Sorcess.
I usually have 2 units of dark riders and 2 RBT with a Cauldron and the rest of the list is made up of witch elfs, spearmen and executioners.
(I can post up the exact list if you wish)

How do I beat something like this...I am playing a gam monday and a strategy I haven't used yet is to Run the two DR up the middle to about 8" from his lines Shoot focus fire into his Tyrant unit and worked out with 20 shots to cause maybe 2/3 wounds, then also focus the two RBT into that unit and hopefully cause 4 - 6 wounds and also was thinking of having 2 sorceresses on steeds with the DR and try and cast missles into them and other stuff to cause wounds.
Goal try and take down the tyrant unit then when they charge, run and force them to move across the board slowly (He usually marches into me and wrecks by turn 3)
Also plan on keeping the rest of my forces way back waiting till turn 3 to really start bringing in witches and executioners etc. Hopfully wittling him down.

Any thoughts on taking down Tyrant, Scrappers, Butchers??..
What would be your Target priorities??


Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:43 pm
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Master of the Red Legion
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I'm not too sure you've got the list entirely right as it total 2025 points or so. As to the army, yeah, it looks like it could get pretty hard in there, no doubt about it. That tyrant is a right mean piece of work - ignore him completely if you can. He's toughness 6 and strength 7 so you've got nothing that can really handle him that's worth the risk and the investment. Focus on the other stuff - like the much more vulnerable BSB and the butchers - especially the butchers.

This ogre player has made a trade I don't normally see in that he's got a ton of units but they are all small and seriously vulnerable (with no banners, so he knows this). They are also all pretty cheap for what they do and their LD (for the ironguts) is pretty good. I'd still tend to try a double envelopment sort of tactic if you can manage it, or at least a refused flank. So,do the standard thing of deploying your fast units first and the obvious ones. So, for either deployment stratgey, deploy the DR first and pretty much right in the middle. Then, pretty much regardless of terrain, deploy the RBTs right behind them. With as many units as he's got, they'll always have a shot and so what if the DR start in frot of them. You'll be wanting to keep them about 4" in anyways with about 6" between the two so no one is going to end up charging both in one turn.

With the cauldron, you'll almost have to go refused flank which is why I'd be tempted to say drop it from the list, but if you're intent on it, then deploy it near to the centre as its fair bait all on its own and it will still have the range to the combat you're going to engage in. Also, be sure NOT to deploy the max forward (and don't mark out the deployment line either). Do it quickly so he'll actually have to guess the ranges for the scraplaunchers.

Them, simply push up on the one side which hopefully won't include his Tyrant (and if it does, toss the witch elves into the unit and hope to do enough wounds to break him - though kill any BSB first if you can so he doesn't get any re-rolls. Execs aren't going to help you in this fight at all, pretty much, and spearmen as a bit weak against ogres.

The secret to ogres is to toss a lot of dice at them, be it magic (the best way really), shooting, or with lots of attacks. His units are small though so by going one on one you should be OK.

I don't know what configuration you have for your highborn, but I'd seriously recommend a manticore (terror on the gnoblars is always useful) and more importantly the GoP to bust those scraplaunchers. They'll get annoying real quick and they should be easy points for a unit like that (not to mention you that unit can take on those small units of ogres all on its own).

So, basically, try to deploy in such a way that you can go one on one with his units and focus on the smaller units of ogres and not the tyrant. Kill the BSB and that unit if at all possible (likely sitting with the tyrant, but you never know - that's one big basket) and make the butchers a priority if you can. You likely have the magic D to stand against the magic might you, so killing units of ogres is a much greater priority in the early game that killing characters (despite the fact that they are worth 1000 VPs to you if you kill them all).

Bottom line though is that I think, given your list, that you'll have difficulties no matter what.

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Sat Jun 09, 2007 2:56 pm
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Executioner

Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:45 pm
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Great comments thank you

Questions
How far apart should I have the DR units from each other?

He usually has the Bruiser BSB in a unit of Ironguts or bulls, first turn..should I focus my magic and firepower into that unit?

The highborn with manticore is quite expensive but I will try and work into the points by dropping the executioners....the list I have is a temple of khaine list which is run by Highborn, witch elf assassin and Sorceress..I guess I could also drop the COB...My question to you typically what Dark elf units are UNFLUFFY for ToK list? (I don't have my DE book with atm)

Lastly...besides the two units of DR, the Highborn, Assassin, 1 or 2 sorceress, a unit of WE and 2 RBT..whatelse would be fluffy and a good fit to wittle down this ogre list?


Sat Jun 09, 2007 3:37 pm
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Master of the Red Legion
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brachenshire wrote:
Great comments thank you

Questions
How far apart should I have the DR units from each other?

You can play around with it, but it truly won't matter much. The idea is just to make some smart deployment moves by making some easy deployments to the centre of the table so he has to deploy similarly and likely stretch out a bit (or stack in the centre - its all pretty much good). You just want to make sure that he's stretched out enough in the end so you can fight the one on one battles and not have to worry as much about his speed and positional advantages.

He usually has the Bruiser BSB in a unit of Ironguts or bulls, first turn..should I focus my magic and firepower into that unit?

This is good. Yes, open up with as much as you can in my view without sacrificing too much in the way of softening other stuff that you'll notice might in fact need softening first. Elves have a real trouble (obviously) with staying in combat, so you'll want to blow through pretty quickly. Getting the BSB out of the way is a good start to that and helps make his general more vulnerable later if you get the chance to take him down. There are also the obvious VP bonuses at stake for the BSB if you can get rid of him too in combat.

The highborn with manticore is quite expensive but I will try and work into the points by dropping the executioners....the list I have is a temple of khaine list which is run by Highborn, witch elf assassin and Sorceress..I guess I could also drop the COB...My question to you typically what Dark elf units are UNFLUFFY for ToK list? (I don't have my DE book with atm)

The manticore is just fun really and can cause terror and gain flank bonuses. You can do pretty much the same thing with a pegasus or even a dark steed really. The manticore just has certain extra advantages that get you there quicker and safer, especailly when hunting scraplaunchers.

Unfluffy units? That really depends on your view of the ToK. Many people consider sorcs unfluffy, but to that I say meh. There's a different between enmity and stupidity. Some people also say corsairs are unfluffy but again I say meh because they do the whole many attacks in close combat thing which is always sweet (a couple units of 10 with musicians and nothing else can easily take on a unit of ogres and with the cauldron around if you decide ot take it can make serious work of them too). Other will also argue that RXBmen are unfluffy, but again they are common warriors so why not. In short, nothing is truly unfluffy in my view with a ToK list, except maybe DoW.


Lastly...besides the two units of DR, the Highborn, Assassin, 1 or 2 sorceress, a unit of WE and 2 RBT..whatelse would be fluffy and a good fit to wittle down this ogre list?

Witches. By fairly far and away, witches. Harpies and shades are also very good to slow him down. RXBmen can also be used as a bait sort of unit if you like but you shouldn't need more bait than what you've got.

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Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:23 pm
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Dark Rider
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That's a pretty mean Ogre list, but my friend runs one that looks a lot like it, and I've been able to take him down w/ a ToK-themed army everytime.

The keys have been: 1) March block. I use harpies; others prefer shades or DR, but whatever, just slow down part of his line every turn. As long as they stick close, the DR can also move-and-fire and still hit on 5's; that way they also stay good and close to make the rear charge once your infantry units engage from the front.

2) Magic and shooting. Ogres don't have a good AS, so death magic (wind of death is AWESOME on low AS units) combined w/ concentrated RXB and RBT fire can usually force a panic test on at least one unit each turn, with just a little bit of luck

3) Witches. I hate to just repeat Vorchild, but he's right on the money. I've run 13 in a frontage of 7 w/ FC and manbane, and as long as you're not fighting the general, there isn't an Ogre unit alive that can take that charge (22 poisoned attacks, 4 of them wounding on 3's). My execs have even done well, considering I always put a tooled-up highborn in there. Yeah the killing blow doesn't work, but you need the extra st against high-toughness Ogres.

The Cauldron has helped me out a great deal; its the assassin which has time and again proven worthless to me, so I let him go.

Can't help you w/ the tyrant; I just avoid fighting them until I can throw everything I have left onto his unit all at once, and just combat rez him.

On a side note, never take a frontal charge from 3 rhinox riders w/ your ranked up unit of spearmen w/ no character b/c they're a tarpit unit and "they can take it". They can't. :oops:

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Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:13 pm
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:idea:


Have you played against him anymore? How did the games go using the above comments?

I would have to think that what was said above didn't help your efforts.

Regardless of what nasty list your opponent is using shouldn't be the case.

Going after a specific unit VS that list of Ogres is just playing into what appears to be the strong point of his list. Let me guess what you are having trouble with? You kill enough units to feel confident, but when he hits everything gets all jacked up. You can't seem to kill enough to score enough Victory Points to get a Draw or Win. When you shoot at a unit to get to his Tyrant or other character he moves it to another unit. Am I Correct?

Don't try to shoot down a full unit. Regardless of who is in it or what is in it. Kill one ogre from a unit that contains a character. Then Shoot the Character, the hits will be randomized, and the character will take hits. Its that simple. Two rounds of RBT should do the trick. Ogres get look out SIR only if there is a Banner with look out Gnoblar and 3 NON CHARACTER MODELS!

The BSB is not who you should be concerned with its the Butchers. The Butchers are the ones who cast the spells that make Ogres powerful.

Kill the Butchers and the Ogres will surely fall.

In his magic phase save your dice for his magic missiles and panic tests. Let him cast the other spells all day. In your magic phase dispel his spells that are in play. Chances are you are going to dispel it and those spells would have already wounded his Butcher. Make the fact that the Butcher takes wounds when he SUCCESSFULLY Casts a spell to your advantage. Then just cast D6 missiles or 2d6 missiles BUT DISPEL HIS STUFF FIRST!

If it looks like he is going to deploy everything in a stretched out battle line set up everything on one side of the table and watch how you will be able to take out half of his effectiveness with out moving a model. If you are trying to bait and flee that is the wrong answer, all you will be doing is risking running something off the board or fleeing through your own units.

Hope this helps

Just keep in mind no player is unbeatable no matter what list they are using

Cheers


Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:58 pm
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Beastmaster
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Ignore the list.
Abuse terror and the new crossfire rules.
Ogres and gnoblars have low leadership values, won't be to hard.
If this doesn't work cast doom and darkness on the unit you try to spook , done.


Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:07 pm
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flank the ironguts he will only get minimum attacks back and you will most likely win combat. also cast black horror on the gnoblars you will take them out early so he dosen't do any tricks with them

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Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:16 am
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