Best Unit of the Three: CoK, Execs, B.G.

[Racso14]

Ok, this isn't just what is the best unit between the three, but what would you do in my situation. I'm trying to get a list together but I cannot think for the life of me what I really should use. Here is my basic thought process;

Going to have General and BSB in this unit, and BSB will have hydra banner. Because of the value of this unit (unit with gen and BSB will run between 500 and 600 points, PLUS 200 points in bonus points for killing general and BSB so this unit could run 800 points) this unit will have to be solid, and I really am hoping that the unit just mows down anything it comes up against, (basically, charge, kill, win combat, move on). Because I cannot really afford to lose any models, I will most likely deploy this unit with dark riders on either side of it to make sure my flanks cannot be charged.

So here are my thoughts on each unit:

Cold One Knights: Strong on the charge, best armor save of the three, hydra banner gives cold ones additional attacks as well so there are even more attacks coming in. Downside: Expensive, Stupidity that could ruin my turn for a charge, Lance only has effect on charge so I had better kill immediately.

Executioners: Stronger & Cheaper than Black Guard, Killing Blow. Downside: Strikes last, Weak save, nothing else pulling it up in standards

Black Guard: Stubborn, Eternal Hatred, Downside: Weakest of the three strength wise, pricey, armor save.

I did a little testing with the black guard and execs and i found I ended up with the same amount of wounds (after armor save). I tested them 10 times each against WS 4, T4, 5+ AS and I found that I averaged 6.57 wounds with the execs and 6.59 wounds with the black guard. With eternal hatred, the black guard got MANY MANY MANY more hits than the executioners, however they got filtered out from toughness and armor save (6+ after S4). The executioners had fewer hits, but a hihger % of the hits ended up wounding (and S5 cancel's 5+ AS so no AS).

So what are your opinions? Brute Strength (COK), Skilled Strength (Executioners), or Strength in Numbers (B.G.)?

[Nagathi]

I'd say Knights, or the unit you fancy the most. Does your army have any theme of fluff? What does the rest of the army look like? What points size are we looking at?

With a unit of knights, you get all you need. Ld10 stupidity test is the best you can get, best charge range of the three, best hitting power, and just rock solid armour. Don't worry about the str3 on subsequent turns. If a unit with a fighty lord, bsb and Battle Banner can't break the opponent in the first turn, you better run away

~ Nag

[Venkh]

If you are going to take the hydra banner take a unit of COK and eat virtually anything they get into combat with (except dwarfs or the new improved high elf elites)

HUGE liability though. If i see a player put a BSB in a unit of COK I am pretty certain that he will be carrrying the banner. That unit will then either die to magic/missiles or find itself diverted down a blind alley.

Probably fun for a few games but a definite one trick pony.

[Sulla]

I much prefer Cold Ones but they do have that dreadful stupidity. Some players just can't stand to have unreliable hammer units. If you are one players, do not use cold ones.

As for the others, black guard are simply not hard hitters. Gamewise, halberd troops are lower on the food chain than hw&shield or even spear&shield. The best you can hope fro from them is that they will die slowly while the rest of your army gets into position to take advantage of the situation.

Exies are a poor unit. Strikes last elves with only one attack and 5+ armour means you have to get the charge and break the enemy on the first turn, also they are so vulnerable that you are discouraged from playing large units because they die almost as easily as small ones but rarely have enough slots to really take a lot of smaller ones. Really, for how good they fight, they should be core but as they are not, you can take a couple of smaller units for fun or stake everything on a big unit that must never get charged. Still, they are probably the best looking infantry unit in the game and sometimes you've just gotta bring them solely for that reason...

[Saint of m]

How Often are you guys roling a 10+ on 2D6? I'h onlky had a couple problems where stupidity. never used black gaurd before, and I love my unit of 15 Executioners. If you want power, and maybe not numbers, go with the Cold Ones. If You Want numbers, go with executioners.

[Nagathi]

1,1 1,2 1,3 1,4 1,5 1,6
2,1 2,2 2,3 2,4 2,5 2,6
3,1 3,2 3,3 3,4 3,5 3,6
4,1 4,2 4,3 4,4 4,5 4,6
5,1 5,2 5,3 5,4 5,5 5,6
6,1 6,2 6,3 6,4 6,5 6,6

All possible outcomes when rolling two dice. Only three of the 36 are 11 or 12, meaning there's a risk of 3/36, or 1/12 to fail that stupidity test. Which equals to about once every other game. When you then deduct all the turns the knights start their turn in combat (which should be turn 3 and 5 in every game) you are nearing once every three games. Definitely nothing I'd be scared of.


~ Nag

[Lordsaradain]

COK's!

In WHFB all infantry is inferior.

[Mr. anderson]

1,1 1,2 1,3 1,4 1,5 1,6
2,1 2,2 2,3 2,4 2,5 2,6
3,1 3,2 3,3 3,4 3,5 3,6
4,1 4,2 4,3 4,4 4,5 4,6
5,1 5,2 5,3 5,4 5,5 5,6
6,1 6,2 6,3 6,4 6,5 6,6

you don´t count rolls like 2;1 and 1;2 twice because the order in which you roll them doesn´t matter (you roll both at once) - ergo you have a lot less possibilities (can´t be bothered thinking any further - i´m on holidays !razz! )

and on topic: i never compare units like that, but as you said this isn´t about which one is the best...
in your situation i would go for CoKs - they can make the best of the additional attacks (4 attacks a model in the first Combat phase isn´t to be sniffed at) and they are the most resilient (for elves) because of their save. executioners have a lot less attacks through this banner - and a unit with a BSB will most likely attract a lot of shooting, and a 5+ is... (ok. let´s not go there, but i was really annoyed when GW wrote that the heavy armor makes the executioners a lot more resilient against s3 shooting - 1/6 less damage - oh, WOW that is all i ever wanted)

HUZZAH!

[Nagathi]

You roll two independant dice. Their total score is summed together to create the total rolled. Thus, two dice has 36 different outcomes on the rolls, with 12 different outcomes on the total rolled. It's all maths. It's all correct. I promise.

~ Nag

[Mr. anderson]

well, if you´re a maths professor i´m obviously mistaken, but if not: i always did it like this:
you can roll

2= 1,1
3= 2,1
4= 3,1; 2,2
5= 4;1; 3,2
6= 3,3; 4,2 ;5,1
7= 4,3; 5,2; 6,1
8= 6,2; 5,3; 4,4
9= 6,3; 5,4
10=6,4; 5,5
11=6,5
12=6,6

you´re gonna screw the test at 10, 11 and 12 which has total of 4 possibilities an you pass the test at 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 which has a total of 17 possibilities - your chance of screwing is 4/17 - but as i´m writing i notice that i´m not sure about this at all.

HUZZAH!

[Zakath the slaughterer]

Mr. Anderson, I think Nagathi (welcome back man, it's been a while!) has it right.

You can have a 3 in a two different ways so you count both 2,1 et 1,2. Got it?

I'm with Nag on this, the chances of Cold Ones going stupid is indeed minimal and even if it happens, how likely is it tha the failure is critical? COK are a cool unit, almost as much so as COC. At least they beat Exes and BG 6-0 if only because they're cavalry and infantry without ASF is plain useless in WHFB....

[Nagathi]

Studied maths and physics at uni, but not professor. Yet (will begin anew to become a teaher in physics and maths, starting this coming fall)
Also, I felt like commenting that I was including the fact that a roll of 10 would pass as he said he'd have his lord with them. Thus, he'll use Ld10 for those stupid tests, and not the usual Ld9. Meaning that 2 out of 21 would be failed in your model, meaning a 1/11 risk of failing. Your model is close to the real on on this subject, because there is not many "value swaps" that you've set as the same (you say that 5,6 = 6,5) in the batch we are investigating.

Aaaaanyway...


~ Nag

[Racso14]

1,1 1,2 1,3 1,4 1,5 1,6
2,1 2,2 2,3 2,4 2,5 2,6
3,1 3,2 3,3 3,4 3,5 3,6
4,1 4,2 4,3 4,4 4,5 4,6
5,1 5,2 5,3 5,4 5,5 5,6
6,1 6,2 6,3 6,4 6,5 6,6

I like this method to look at it. You are not rolling 1 die with only 12 possibilities, you are rolling two, each with 6 possibilities, with a total of 36 possibilites.

Back onto my topic, I think I will go with CoK. I really like the models (of the knights at least) and they just seem too strong to really pass up. Basically, here is how I got to my original post:

I was reading the DE army book, and reading about the black guard, they just seemed to sum up the Druchii. So I wanted to build an army around them. Then I thought, well, execs look nice too, and have different benefits, so I compaired them, and saved points. Then I thought, "Well the banner affects mounts as well... lets stick it with cold one knights."

But anyway, knights it is... lets just hope I don't screw up and fail a stupidity test right when I'm about to charge.

EDIT: I will not have a lord, just a noble. So test will still be at 9. Thats still 6/36.

[Mr. anderson]

ok, i was wrong. i mixed it up with something else (our maths teacher did something about pathways and blablabla where you draw the possibilities in a tree-diagram and he use an bucket with different colored balls in it and we had to write the possibilities down, once with regard to the order we took them out, once without etc. was a looooooooooooooooooooooooooong time ago)

and i agree that the chance of screwing it up are minimal - but you tend to screw things up in moments where it is important not to - and you can´t rely on them 100% which is what turns me off using them in an important role (i prefer witch elves - ha ha ha)

HUZZAH!

[Layne]

1,1 1,2 1,3 1,4 1,5 1,6
2,2 2,3 2,4 2,5 2,6
3,3 3,4 3,5 3,6
4,4 4,5 4,6
5,5 5,6
6,6

21 possibilties, 2 are 11+ = about 1 in 10.

Which is interesting, but irrelevant. It doesn't matter in which order the results are rolled, but it does matter on which die. To help y'all think about it, imagine you have one in your left hand, and one in your right. You roll them both at the same time, or even at different times, doesn't matter,as Anderson says. But if you roll a 3 with your left and a 4 with your right that is a distinct result from rolling 4 with your left and 3 with your right. So Nagathi's calculation, that Highborn on Cold One has about a 1/12 basic chance of suffering stupidity in any given turn, is correct. Add on 4 turns of combat, and that's 16 turns stupid free, And the calculation I have provided above is Gobble-de-Gook.

Foot note : without the HB's Ld, you have double the chance of suffering stupidity. But that's still onlly every seven or eight turns.

[Drakken]

To the original topic question: None of the Above! In that situtation, the unit you really want doesn't exist in a Dark Elf list....or any Elven list really. In fact, there isn't an army in WFB that I would ever consider putting 2 expensive characters in 1 unit, much less a nice, juicy, Elven unit. In the end, units like this simply end up getting ignored, redirected, and/or basically removed from play with minimal damage done, while the rest of your army is annihilated since it lacks the necessary support. Your far better off spreading those characters out and having multiple threats across the board.

[Nightblade183]

The COKs are my fav because of their speed. They are indeed very expensive so I usually take two units of 5 and the luxury of a 2+ armour save for DEs is just to good to pass up for me. As long as you choose your charges carefully and pass stupidity tests I think they're the best of the three.

The BG I have only played with once so far because I only just finished the unit. I liked them but they didn't have quite the punch I was hoping for for the amount of points I paid. They still performed well for me and only a couple died the whole game.

The EXs are my favorite unit that I have painted but they just seem to die so easily. I love the strength that they put out (die dryads die!!) but if they end up getting charged and they don't have support they become like bogged down COKs.

[Tigtoad]

having done a lot of two dice probability when I was thinking of playing backgammon professionally... you count each dice as an independent variable.. so he had it right, 36 combinations. 3 of which make stupid... 1/12 chance of going stupid each turn you're not in combat.

[Nightblade183]

Thank you for that but it is rather obvious (thank you AP statisitics), but being able to look at the dice in terms of probability is a huge advange when it comes to decision making in Warhammer. Use this chart




possibilities 1 2 3 4 5 6 5 4 3 2 1

number rolled 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

add all the possiblities for passing a ld test for example and divide by 36 to find probability.

Ex. If I don't dispel his Casket of Souls what are the odds that my COKs will pass the ld test that they are forced to take.

COK ld is 9. After the -2 penalty from the Casket I need 7 or lower to pass.

I add all of the possibilities of numbers 2 - 7 since they would be the ones that would pass and divide by 36 to find the probability that I would pass said ld. test.

I get 21 passing possibilities out of 36 total possibilities.

21/36= .5833333

so the odds that I pass the test are 58.33333%.

I usually right down this chart before a game and have a calculator handy just in case I'm forced to make a tough dicision.

[Ehakir]

COK all the way, but without the lord, otherwise you have too many eggs in one basket IMO

[Raneth]

1,1 1,2 1,3 1,4 1,5 1,6
2,1 2,2 2,3 2,4 2,5 2,6
3,1 3,2 3,3 3,4 3,5 3,6
4,1 4,2 4,3 4,4 4,5 4,6
5,1 5,2 5,3 5,4 5,5 5,6
6,1 6,2 6,3 6,4 6,5 6,6

You seem to assume Ld10, COK are Ld9. Thus, without a HB's influence the odds of failure would be
1,1 1,2 1,3 1,4 1,5 1,6
2,1 2,2 2,3 2,4 2,5 2,6
3,1 3,2 3,3 3,4 3,5 3,6
4,1 4,2 4,3 4,4 4,5 4,6
5,1 5,2 5,3 5,4 5,5 5,6
6,1 6,2 6,3 6,4 6,5 6,6

6/36, not 3/36

EDIT: sorry Nags, missed your following post...

[Layne]

COK all the way, but without the lord, otherwise you have too many eggs in one basket IMO

The Lord doesn't have to stay in the unit. But he should start there, for his own protection. COK are the only unit we have that is just too dang expensive to ever be used as a sacrifice. Some people are willing to write off their Black Gaurd (balls of solid rock!) but COK, when? Does anyone have a story about COK used in that way?

On topic, it shows in people's army lists. Pretty much all lists on this forum have COKs, unless they have COCs. Many less have Execs, and less again have BG.

[Raneth]

COK are the only unit we have that is just too dang expensive to ever be used as a sacrifice.

I have often pretended I'd sacrifice them. Khaine bless the Soul Shadows Standard.

[Mr. anderson]

COK are the only unit we have that is just too dang expensive to ever be used as a sacrifice.

I have often pretended I'd sacrifice them. Khaine bless the Soul Shadows Standard.

i have often done it as well, but after a while my opponents didn´t take the bait anymore because they knew that CoKs are just too damn expensive to be sacrificed. and thus i had to pretend that i accidentally forgot to move them and even that didn´t always work...

HUZZAH!

[Scareypete]

Long time since the start... and My opinion is along the same lines as others. CoK..

People worry too much about stupidity. LD9 is awesome and if you are sticking your general in there its LD10.

I have often been tempted to run the unit with the general + BSB and Hydra banner +8 Cold ones with full command.

Sure it might get stupid... and sure the enemy might try to ignore it...
Only a few enemies are capable of Avoiding it. It's charge range of 14" allows it to reach out and touch nearly 1/3 of the board at any given time. The only way to redirect that is by running from charges... and foot tropps run the risk of being run down. 2D6 vs 3d6 means you still have a shot at taking the unit out. Plus the CoK cause fear... which is great against the low LD armies.

8 CoK +General and BSBc/ Hydra Banner... Crimson Death on your General with decent armor (depending on lord or hero) and you are set.

Just don't be suprised when everything tries to stay 15 inches away from you.... in which case you just need a little magical push.

Defientely don't put all your eggs in a T3 Sv5 basket though... would suck to see it shot to ribbons and captured.