Aenarion?

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Aenarion?

Post by Imrix »

I just wonder, what do the Druchii think of Aenarion?

It's wrapped up in a question i've often wondered, that being whether the Dark Elves know they're evil and just don't care or if they're somehow deluded, or have a different view of things.

But how do they think of Aenarion? Is he seen as a demigod, the chosen vessel of their patron god? Merely a great and mighty elf? Or even, considering the Dark Elves consortion with Chaos, as a deluded fool?
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Post by Layne »

I daresay if you went about Naggaroth with a microphone, you'd get all those opinions and more. No doubt hardcore cultists would think him a dang fool, but the rest would on the whole idealise him even more than Malekith, as indeed does Malekith himself. As to the Dark Elf self-image, I would say that most Dark Elves know in their hearts that they are evil, but can't really help themselves. Did you ever meet a mean bastard, who got that way cos his daddy was a mean bastard, who got that way cos his daddy was a mean bastard, we're all a bit like that, we're mean buggers because we don't know anything else. I think that most Dark Elves would look to the conquest of Ulthuan as a time when all this hatred could be washed away, and all the bloodshed could end. Most real life violent twisted types are like that, with a jagged line straight down the middle of their personality.

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Post by Lord_jimmy_ »

I think all Dark Elves think of Aenarion as a sort of Demi-God.

They all have him to thank for producing Malekith and saving the Elven race. They also believe him to be warlike, and like that side of him. The High elves and Wood Elves will also see him as a great warrior and saviour, however would like him for other reasons.

Its all about liking him for the reasons that suit the particular Elf. There is no way an Elf couldnt like him, he was their greatest warrior and the reason they are all still there...
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Post by Ilokir lúinwë »

Arnold Layne wrote:I would say that most Dark Elves know in their hearts that they are evil, but can't really help themselves.
Heretic thougths! They are bitter, but I don't think the druchii in general consider themselves evil. They have an unmatched hatred against the Asur, because the Asur are still in debt for Aenarion and his dragon saving Uthuan. They betrayed him by denying his son the phoenix crown, although Malekith is the only worthy ruler of Ulthuan after his father.

Secondly, I don't think they consider themselves cruel to the other races. the Asur and Asrai share the same feeling of disdain towards the lesser races. The druchii are the only race that is consequent in this regard. They don't care about a dead human, like we don't care about cattle.
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Post by Sulla »

While the origins of the dark elves are tragic on an operatic scale, I don't think you could justify their current warhammer actions as anything but cruel and evil.

They are slavers, murderers (even of their own citizens), a totalitarian police state with no true allies in the warhammer world.

I think the Druchii see themselves as cruel (needlessly so even), and can even recognise their actions as evil. Whether they justify these actions as neccessary evils to maintain their place in the world, or perhaps rationalise their actions as irrellevant due to all the other races like a child pulling wings off a fly doesn't really matter. Even the child knows his actions are cruel and unneccessary on some levle of his mind. DE know their actions are cruel and evil too, but they simply don't care.
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Post by Lord tareq »

Not this discussion again :)

Were the Romans evil? Where the crusaders evil? Are hunters that kill deer evil?

Like these examples, the druchii are only evil to those cultures with different norms and values. A chaos warrior wouldn't find a Druchii evil, an Empire warriorpriest would. Its just perspective.

In the case of the Druchii, their cruelty and "evil" habits were merely instated to increase their race's survival.

Anyway, Aenarion is described in the Druchii armybook in a positive manner, so my guess is all or at least most Druchii look to him favorable.
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Post by Drainial »

Aenorion is a near mythical figure for the Druchii the way I see it. He was their greatest king and hero who saved their race and cemented the superiority of Nagrythe over the other kingdoms. Even the temple must respect him as he weilded the Widowmaker and therefore was an intrument of Khaine.

As for the old 'do the Druchii see them selves as evil' question I think that the obvious answer is that as a race no they dont. Individuals may because of their actions individualy but by and large they consider their race to be supirior to all others and therefore slavery is justified (do you consider your self evil for eating meat?) and they are so wound up in their anger at the betrayl of Ulthaun (remembering that to them its not actualy been all that long, a few generations realy, a few hundred years to us) that they consider there treatment of Asur as whole justified. Besides they were the ones who declared total war when they sacked Tor Anlec massacaring every man woman and child wheather civilion or millitarty.
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Post by Fingol darkwater »

If you want to discuss the question of whether or not dark elves believe they are evil or not, make a separate thread. Otherwise, stay on topic.
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Post by Scareypete »

well it is slightly on topic regardless... although this has been a topic in many threads...

Knowing that their hated rivals also revere Aenarion As a godlike figure has to put a burr under their saddles. The whole argument is deep rooted in the psyche of the betrayed. Are they victims or victors?
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Post by Monkeylord »

Oh, I have no doubt that the Druchii consider themselves to be evil. I don't think they would be so blind as not see their reflection in the mirror and not recognize how wretched they have become...

However.....

I think Dark Elven evil starts and is perpetuated by a combination of deeply buried nihilistic self loathing, and a healthy heeping dose of scape goating. After all, in their eyes, they have been exiled from Ulthuane because their asur kin stole from them what was rightfully theirs: their lands, their titles, their country, and their king's rightful claim to the Pheonix Crown... and all after Naggarythe stood as the first line of defense against the chaos incursions! If the court of Naggarythe was grim, it was because they alone took the brunt of that horrible war, that their cousins in other lands would not have to... The Elves of Ulthuane owed Naggarythe an unpayable debt, but repaid only in threachery.

I think the Druchii are fully aware of their corruption... but they blame their woes and what they've lost on the Asur. And when you have a scapegoat to explain why you are evil, there is little encouragement there to change it... in fact, you only find excuses to compound it.
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Post by Saint of m »

he's the only one to weild the mythic sword of Khaine, the father of the witch king, and the one who drove chaose back under the rock it crawled from.

What's not to like from the Dark elves perspective?

he's the ultimate warrior, especialy by the standards of a society where every learns how to swing a sword before they can walk.


He saved the world once from destruction.

Heck, he even prooved once and for all that chaos is not invincable! It can be defeated by a brve and powerful man!
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Post by Eldacar »

Heck, he even prooved nce and for all that chaps is not invincable! It can be defeated by a brve and powerful man!

Assuming that you actually mean "Chaos", you're wrong. It can only be pushed back momentarily. It can never be truly defeated - the WH world is doomed from the outset. There's no cavalry charge to save the day and banish Chaos forever.

Win battles, yes. But win the war? No.
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Post by Fingol darkwater »

Eldacar wrote:There's no cavalry charge to save the day and banish Chaos forever.


Old ones?

Seriously though, the whole inevitable doom thing was something I never got over in the WHFB universe :?
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Post by Alux »

What do we think. Whatever Malekith and Morathi tells us too think. It is likely anyone else or little else matters to most Druchii now. There may have been a time he was mourned as his bloodline to our great leaders the justification for war against the Asur. we are probably indifferent to his fading memory and a painfull reminder of an existance we do not desire to return to but in fact seek to destroy completely. He did fight against Chaos and we now embrace its powers.
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Post by Drainial »

Eldacar wrote:
Heck, he even prooved nce and for all that chaps is not invincable! It can be defeated by a brve and powerful man!

Assuming that you actually mean "Chaos", you're wrong. It can only be pushed back momentarily. It can never be truly defeated - the WH world is doomed from the outset. There's no cavalry charge to save the day and banish Chaos forever.

Win battles, yes. But win the war? No.


I dont know about that, the Vortex could possibly be expanded to suck all of the magic pouring through the gates into it and thereby stop chaos from being a tangable threat. Of course magic would also be out of the window. Ok this is geting of topic and I know full well that its never going to hapen but I just thought we should keep things in perspective.
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Post by Rork »

Drainial Shadowheart wrote:I dont know about that, the Vortex could possibly be expanded to suck all of the magic pouring through the gates into it and thereby stop chaos from being a tangable threat.


The knowledge that created the vortex was lost in its creation. The High Elves can only hope to maintain it as it is, not even Teclis has the knowledge to alter it.
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Post by Drainial »

I am not saying its likly or easy but get together all of the Slaan (knowledge of the way lines, Kroak's spirit must know something about that even if the living ones dont) all of the elven mages, possibly some Dwarven rune smiths (they specilaise in binding the winds after all) and the inventivness of the human mages and they might have a shot at working something out.

I know full well that its never going to hapen, not least because that would ruin much of the warhammer background and game and would force GW to stop production of all mages and all of the chaos armies. All I am saying it that no options should be discounted if we are having a theoretical discusion about this.

This is going to be one of those arguments where I get shouted at by everyone else isnt it? :roll:
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Post by Eldacar »

Old ones?

They're gone, and won't be coming back. Given how they fled in the first place, I doubt that they could stop it entirely either.

Seriously though, the whole inevitable doom thing was something I never got over in the WHFB universe

It's just a part of the setting. Doesn't stop you from taking as many of them with you as you can when it all comes crashing down.

I am not saying its likly or easy but get together all of the Slaan (knowledge of the way lines, Kroak's spirit must know something about that even if the living ones dont) all of the elven mages, possibly some Dwarven rune smiths (they specilaise in binding the winds after all) and the inventivness of the human mages and they might have a shot at working something out.

For a start, the human mages wouldn't even be able to comprehend the sort of power we're talking about. Second, no. It is simply not possible. Nobody knows how to alter, recreate or improve the Vortex. Not even Kroak, because the Elves did things with magic that the Slann couldn't or wouldn't in creating it. The Vortex is already stretched to capacity. All props to the Elves for actually managing to create the thing in the first place, but there are limits.

This is going to be one of those arguments where I get shouted at by everyone else isnt it?

It's just because you're wrong. Nothing personal.
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Post by Ranieth »

I prefer to agree with Drainal, though no one know anything nowadays that could stop chaos from overrunning everything eventually, who's to say that someone won't come up with something new in quite a long while :p?
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Post by Khel »

Well from what we saw from the Storm, even a massive tide of evil can be banished with a simple twirl of your wand.

Chaos never consumes all of Fantasy. It would ruin the game plus even Malekith would know when enough is enough and he would do a big magic dance and he would send that chaos packing....Or the Asur could Lend us the Sword of Khaine so we could get rid of chaos for good...We might even give it back *Suspicious eyes*
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Post by Drainial »

Humans can comprehend quite a bit, and even if they can't contribute to the design they can provide more power (there seem to be quite a lot of them gathering together all of the various lands) And just because something is lost doesn't mean that if you want to do the same thing you have to find it, they could come up with somthing entierly new. And I am not saying that Kroak knows how to make a vortex but the Slaan were involved in seting up the gates and the way lines that were suposed to keep Chaos in check and still do to some degree. Its all knowledge that can help with that kind of thing. For example you could deside that instead of draining all of the power its a more viable option to creat some kind of portal into another reigon of space so all of the chaos energy gets pumped out into the void. If you can tell me that their is a GW source that specificly says that it is totaly impossible I will belive you but I doubt that their is.

These end of the world moments are the kind of time you have to think latraly.
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Post by Eldacar »

Humans can comprehend quite a bit

You do realise that Volans himself, the most powerful human mage who ever lived, said point-blank that to simply see Qhaysh practically burned his magical senses? He admitted himself that he had no chance of ever channeling it without utterly destroying himself. Humans cannot comprehend the scales of power you're talking about. Nor do they understand the complex theory behind it.

And just because something is lost doesn't mean that if you want to do the same thing you have to find it, they could come up with somthing entierly new.

With what?

And I am not saying that Kroak knows how to make a vortex but the Slaan were involved in seting up the gates and the way lines that were suposed to keep Chaos in check and still do to some degree.

So?

For example you could deside that instead of draining all of the power its a more viable option to creat some kind of portal into another reigon of space so all of the chaos energy gets pumped out into the void.

What do you think the Vortex is already doing? It drains the ambient magic of the world back into the Aethyr. Directing those energies off-planet won't do anything, because it will still exist in the material world, which is what the Vortex is designed to stop.

If you can tell me that their is a GW source that specificly says that it is totaly impossible I will belive you but I doubt that their is.

That what's impossible? What you're saying the collective mages (assuming they ever actually cooperated, which they wouldn't) should do is already impossible.

If you want a GW source telling you that Chaos will eventually win, then there are more sources than I can conveniently list that have said Chaos can only ever be pushed back, never defeated. Gav has also said as much. Chaos is going to win. It's been an integral part of the setting since approximately 1986 or thereabouts - why not ask for a source proving that the Earth is round and not flat?

Everybody dies. That doesn't stop you from living life as you can in the meantime, which is part of the "dark" nature of the Warhammer world. Frankly, if you want a happily-ever-after ending, then you picked the wrong setting.

EDIT: And when Chaos does win, reality itself will be "destroyed". Yes, that does mean that the Chaos Gods will cease to exist as emotion-wrought vortexes within the Aethyr. Chaos winning means the end of everything.
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Post by Drainial »

I dont want a happily ever after, I play chaos and evil I just like to keep an open mind. In answer to your objections.

1) Not being able to channel Qhyash does not invalidate a person from being able to come up with differant ideas, even if they cann't themselves carry them out.

2)Not being versed in arcane lore from a fantasy world I would be hard pressed to come up with viable solution. However of the top of my head a line, a tiny line drawn around each of the gates of total and utter none magic, deamons would not be able to cross that point as they would be banished. The chaos mortals and baestmen would still be a problem but it is the deamons which give chaos the factor of inevitabillity, without them chaos becomes an enemy that can be defeated.

3) Knowledge of magics that bound chaos away to begin with (before the fall of the gates) and of the way lines that some how keep chaos at least partialy in check has got to be an advantage in this kind of endevor.

4) If chaos is existing in the material world on the other side of the galixy you have less of a problem, the folks over their will be anoyed but at least a Bloodthirster isn't riping out your heart.

5) And yes admitadly the mages of the Warhammer world (let alone the Dwarves) would never co-operate in this manner and yes Chaos will win because this will never happen. That does not banish all merit from the idea of a second vortex like creation (not necasaraly another vortex) What I was looking for was more in the area of a reason why that kind of thing cannot sucseed (other than it would ruin the game. For example if it were stated that the curant vortex means that there is simply not sufficent energy left to create another that would be a reason.
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Post by Eldacar »

Not being able to channel Qhyash does not invalidate a person from being able to come up with differant ideas, even if they cann't themselves carry them out.

Yes it does. If your comprehension of mathematics doesn't extend beyond 2+2=4, how could you be expected to do complicated algebra problems?

2)Not being versed in arcane lore from a fantasy world I would be hard pressed to come up with viable solution. However of the top of my head a line, a tiny line drawn around each of the gates of total and utter none magic, deamons would not be able to cross that point as they would be banished. The chaos mortals and baestmen would still be a problem but it is the deamons which give chaos the factor of inevitabillity, without them chaos becomes an enemy that can be defeated.

What? No it doesn't. Daemons won't stop existing. The Chaos Gods won't stop existing.

Knowledge of magics that bound chaos away to begin with (before the fall of the gates) and of the way lines that some how keep chaos at least partialy in check has got to be an advantage in this kind of endevor.

Except the Slann don't have that knowledge. The Elves were the ones who created the Vortex - they did things the Slann couldn't/wouldn't do.

If chaos is existing in the material world on the other side of the galixy you have less of a problem, the folks over their will be anoyed but at least a Bloodthirster isn't riping out your heart.

No you don't. When reality shatters and Chaos wins, reality will shatter. By the time the magical energy is already present, you need to send it back where it's come from. Try this analogy:

A serial killer is trying to get into your house to wreck it. Do you let him in and then try and overpower him before locking him in the spare room, or do you hold the front door shut?

Not to mention that removing magic from the world is impossible by virtue of the fact that you need magic to remove magic.

What I was looking for was more in the area of a reason why that kind of thing cannot sucseed (other than it would ruin the game. For example if it were stated that the curant vortex means that there is simply not sufficent energy left to create another that would be a reason.

This makes absolutely no sense. Nobody has the knowledge or ability to do anything about stopping Chaos. It is that simple. Chaos is going to win - the only difference is if you go out with a fight or with a whimper.
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Post by Drainial »

1) The human mages simply cannot weild the pure winds (Dhar and Qhyash) they are perfectly capable of using the other winds and therefore do have a considerable understanding of magic. They are phisicly limited that does not stop them from having the odd good idea.

2) No it wont destroy chaos your right but a deamon can only exist where there is magic, if it enters an area with absolutly no magic, a void if you will, it will be banished. In this way daemonic incursions on a large scale are curtailed. It is these deamons which make the triumph of chaos inevitable because they cannot be killed. It is perfectly possible to keep the mortal followers of chaos in check for all eternity if you can actualy best them in the first place. Not a sure thing and not total victory but it meens that the result is no longer a forgon conclusion.

3) I am not talking about the vortex I am talking about the wards that sealed the gates themselves. Obviously these were either sabotaged (unlikly) or overcome by chaos. Prehaps they could be fixed, we cannot say for sure. Plus they created the way lines that cross the earth, Albion is on one I belive as is Ulthuan. In some manner these help contain chaos as well.

4) What on earth are you talking about? Chaos can gain total domination over individual worlds and create deamon worlds out of them but one more deamon world will not shatter reality.

5) Now thats not a reasoned argument is it? Thats just stating opinions in a confident manner and hoping people take it as fact. At the moment no one has the knowledge or ability to travel to Pluto but that does not mean that no one ever will.
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