Executioner Rumour

[Khel]

You cannot just give Executioners S4. Nothing in fluff supports this. White Lions are S4 because they are strong hunters.

So what would you want instead of the auto wound of Executioners. Apart from what we have already suggested above.

[Draithon]

Maybe they missed a bit and it can only affect ma sized models? That seems more fair.

[Rob the dark elf]

You cannot just give Executioners S4. Nothing in fluff supports this. White Lions are S4 because they are strong hunters.

So what would you want instead of the auto wound of Executioners. Apart from what we have already suggested above.

Im sure they could write in the fluff the fact that they wield giant axes as a living and thus become a little stronger. Why not? White lions are strong because they hunt big cats, executioners are ST4 because they spend their lives swinging axes about - its bound to make you a little stronger.

I dont like the auto wound personally. I would prefer the loss of killing blow, make them strength 4 with 2 attacks and I think that would make them pretty nails. I think that this change would make them hit very hard and be a force to be reckoned with. But, because they would still strike last, be T3 and only have heavy armour they would still be quite fragile. Although the lack of special rules may make them look a bit too much like HE elite units.

I don't like the idea of giving them killing blow on a 5+ either btw.

[Rabidnid]

Anything done to Exes will have an impact on Black Guard as well. I still think a blanket rule that gives DE an improved save in melee to their front due to their blade mastery is the way to go.

From the deathstrike thread

II shouldn`t speak for all members, there may be some that DON`T like the idea of `Spite` as an AWR. But I can`t think off WHY they would object.

Because its the dopiest rule imaginable?

How about something useful like.... "blade mastery"

From childhood dark elves are familiar with the handeling of blades, every day of their life they carry and train with blades as their primary weapon and and defence. As they age their blade mastery grows, till after hundreds of years, it becomes an impenetrable shield behind which a Druchii can wait for the moment to strike.

Blade Mastery - adds +2 to a character or units save when in melee to the front:

1/ +1 only when mounted,
2/ stacks with all other saves.

Because nothing else has changed they still can't kill anything frontally. But It means that the army does have some anvils to go with its hammers

Different dynamic certainly, but there is no reason for all elf armies to fight the same way.

[Drakken]

I'll join the small minority....I like the idea, though I can see lots of ways to abuse it....

Consider it this way...right now, the biggest flaw in the Dark Elf army isn't hitting....its wounding. As it stands, 90% of my CR in every combat is static, I pretty much assume 0 Wounds done by my Elves. The odd character might give me 1-2...but really, vast majority of combat wins are CR from static. Now your handing me a way to do wounds....yes, you'll get saves and all, but so what? Wounds increase CR potential outright, remove a stage of luck, and make overwhelming CR a possibility. To me, its a win-win...

[Saithis]

i don't see why this rule is useful for a unit which has higher strength caused by the weapon already. i never had a problem do cause wounds with them... the prize for this is striking last. this new rule would only help against monsters, as said we have witches or bolt throwers for that.
make them can openers!

and back to the fluff: i don't see a reason why HE and WE have infantry units with WS6 and S4 - but DE have to stay on normal stats. what is the fluff for a 4+ wardsave on PG, this 'reason' is a joke.
i don't see a problem to give the +1S and/or AP caused of their weapon for example. grave guard has KB thanks to their weapons, so why not?

[Khel]

PG are the anvils of the HE now. PG are meant to not make a dint in your battle line, only to be some tough, resilient bastards.

It doesn't matter really about the fluff for It can be bent a bit now. It started when Gav gave us that excellent piece of reasoning on our Cold ones.

I don't see how Spite is a dopy rule, as you so colorfully described it. It can't be as Dopy as AWH and ASF rules.

DE are meant to be different and difficult, we are the somehow ironically, Black Sheep.

Well I see most people support this rule, though I do agree with it not really helping us out in much more then before.

[Layne]

Spite is a daft rule because it is the over-simplified antidote to the daft ASF rule. It has been claimed that ASF balances the HE list. This is true, but it unbalances every other list, because it renders so many of thir enemies unit choices ubfeasible v HE. I mean, if armies are going to have an AWR, it should contain both a boost and a drawback, like O&G Animosity. Spite has no drawback. Hatred does, but I for one do not consider it a bargain. Hatred removes much of the finesse from the DE playstyle, and I joined the Druchii for the finesse. Druchiii without control, it's like Moe's Tavern with out the dank.

Layne.

[Master of arneim]

I've made a little calculation on what would be better between auto-wounding (AW) and KB... here it is

hitting on 3+ (I've assumed 6 exec with champion):

4,666667 hit

Opponent: T3 and 2+ AS

AW: 2,333333 kills

KB: 3,88889 wounded ---- 1,94 kills
but: 77% of chance to get 1 KB: if so the kills now are 2,4444

Opponent T4 and 3+ As

AW: 3,11111 kills

KB: 2,074 kills
but with 77% of chance to get 1 KB: if so the kills now are 2,407

Opponent T4 and 2+ As

AW: 2,3334 kills

KB: 1,5555 kills
but with 77% of chance to get 1 KB: if so the kills now are 2,11111

Now assuming hitting on 4+

3,5 hit

Opponent T3 and 2+ As

AW: 1,75 kills

KB: 1,45 kills
but with 58% of chance to get 1 KB: if so the kills now are
1,96

Opponent: T4 and As 3+

AW: 2,33333 kills

KB: 1,5555 kills
but with 58% of chance to get 1 KB: if so the kills now are 1,88888

Opponent: T4 and As 4+

AW: 1,75 kills

KB: 1,166666
but with 58% of chance to get 1 KB: if so the kills now are 1,6

I've to say that my calculations are not complete because there's the chance of getting more KB on the "to wounds" throws, but excluding that, it is shown that with auto-wounding we get about 0,5/0,8 wound more than our actual exec. This mean if we're lucky, 1 more kill on our side... comparing with the chance of killing outright a character I don't feel to say that it's a good change.

Edit: grammatical errors

[Ripflag]

I like it, it adheres to fluff. But imagine this, combined with Universal Hatred? I'd say that's a bit broken.

This is a really good point, hitting on 3's with the reroll you are going to miss only 1 or 2 attacks. Here is a unit that is going to hurt anything with a low AS on the charge. I think it is brilliant because it takes away that chance where you can always roll 4 1's to wound when you only need 2's.

If this rule is inplace i think we will see a large rise in the use of executioner and the viablity of armies dependant upon them.

[Monkeylord]

I like it, it adheres to fluff. But imagine this, combined with Universal Hatred? I'd say that's a bit broken.

This is a really good point, hitting on 3's with the reroll you are going to miss only 1 or 2 attacks. Here is a unit that is going to hurt anything with a low AS on the charge. I think it is brilliant because it takes away that chance where you can always roll 4 1's to wound when you only need 2's.

If this rule is inplace i think we will see a large rise in the use of executioner and the viablity of armies dependant upon them.

Yeah, seriously. However, One could easily say the same thing about HE Swordmasters... They are just rediculously retarded to ever get into combat with.

Even with this rule, executions would be a little less so... Unless of course they get 2 attacks like the swordmasters... then all bets are off!!!

[Skot]

I did some thinking on this and I believe it would be far better if execs wounds would not allow an armor save. This is sort of the same quality of skill (one negates opponent toughness and other armor and you pay for both so it's almost the same thing - one could say that they always wound easily (with S5) but on another hand they reduce the save by -2 anyway)

I really hope they will make something to execs that will allow us to fight with heavy armored troops easier...

[Monkeylord]

Were this rumor true, I imagine it would take the form of: When using their Draich in H2H, all hits automatically wound, with no roll necessary. Armor saves are taken at a -2 penalty. (as if hitting at strength 5)

[Mr. anderson]

My apologies for my original post guys... Please don't string me up and burn me!

I'm sorry to say that what I took for rumor... was actually a wish list he and another employee were discussing. So... VERY SORRY! I know how critically Warseer looks at rumors, and I just effed a big one up. So... forgiveness please!

The way the employees were talking, it sounded like rumor, but was actually house rules they use with each other. Sorry mates.

apparently the rumor was not true...

HUZZAH!

[Khel]

I just read some fluff saying the "Draich masters can swing their Draich as if it was as light as a feather". Now if GW build upon this, then we can possibly have 2 attacks on our Executioners. Or even better, generating 1D6 worth of attacks each combat phrase. But that would make them WAY too powerful.

[Blueon462]

I have a sickening feeling they will be bringing back the d3 wounds rule.

[Khel]

I hope not, then our Executioner will be nothing but Monster Hurters. Executioners don't harm animals, how sick can you get!

Ahem, I heard that they were creating a new rule. Though I can be wrong, but I just hope your feeling is wrong Blueon462

[Vandal delle 3v]

autowound on 6? like poison attacks?

[Slerac fellblade]

okay how many people here actually use executioners in regular lists.

I do and other DE players I notice generally don't. Okay i feel killing blow should be kept and maybe the executioners get an always strike first. i feel the new rule you are talking about given that we will most likely get spite as a universal rule would make my exes unimaginably broken especially if we get army wide hatred too.

Dear freaking lord could you imagine reroll first round of combat, strike wheather you get charged or not then auto wound. Talk about uber violent for 11 points a model. It's too much however always strikes first and killing blow works for me.

being that this is all rumour it's meaningless until that 2 month period before my new armybook comes out.

[Mr. anderson]

okay how many people here actually use executioners in regular lists.

Everyone with style (just kidding ). but i do!

HUZZA!

[Khel]

I tend to usually use them as a small flanking unit, though I would love to be able to use them more often. I want to be able to use a large unit of them and crush my opponents units with them.

[Tich]

I use small units of 10 to attack flanks and disrupting their battle line.

[Zakath the slaughterer]

Core slot and 5+ unit size would fix usability problem quite fine I think.. They are little flankers so why not allow them to be used as flankers effectively?

Having them in core and COCs in special would really allow the gamers to build effective infantry lists.. I don't think they need anything funky like two attacks per dude or something.. Core and 5+ size would fix everything in my eyes

[Layne]

True, then they'd be perfect for that role.. but I want the same thing Khel wants, to send in the Executioners and watch them crush the enemy (though I would "settle" for watching them hack the enemy into bits and pack them into bags labelled "Cold One Chow").

I have suggested before a ruleset for Execs which would cause them to rend whatever they touch, but gave them the flaw of being unable to pursue or overrun, or to flee. That is the sort of Exec I would really like to see, though it doesn't have to be done that way. Just something that is really deadly, but has a big enough drawback (or risk factor, but I would prefer a drawback) that it need not cost too much.

Layne.

[Rob the dark elf]

I tend to usually use them as a small flanking unit, though I would love to be able to use them more often. I want to be able to use a large unit of them and crush my opponents units with them.

This is how I use mine. But I dont think that elite infantry should be used in a supporting role, it should be the unit doing the damage. As it stands I look forward to Execs getting a boost to make the enemy more wary of them.